Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[Meriweather]

We never tell our children they have to wait to join the Body of Christ. How odd that you would even think that.

When do they join the Body of Christ?

 

[hadit]

No. I am suggesting you know what you heard is not true, and passing it along is no more fitting than gossip. Ignorance knows no bounds in any subject including any faith. Ignorance does not need a platform nor a microphone.

Catholic teaching is that when anyone dies, they are in the hands of a merciful and loving God.

Catholicism teaches the Way of Salvation as passed onto us by Christ and the Apostles. We are taught this Way of Salvation (living in the Kingdom) is an eternal way that extends beyond death. Catholics begin Kingdom living and the Way of Salvation today in this life--no waiting for death for entry into it. The Catholic Catechism is clear that it is her business the proclaim the good news and assist people in this life--it is not for any Church or any human to decide who enters heaven, as that judgment is for God alone--and that God is merciful and loving.

He is also righteous and just, and no one will enter His kingdom without the blood of Christ. You seem to think that most of humanity will be with God for eternity. How do you believe that when the default behavior of man is to rebel against God?

"For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

-and-

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[hadit]

When do they join the Body of Christ?

When they understand that they are sinful beings, want to be forgiven and have Jesus live within them. That can happen at any age, but certainly cannot happen to a newborn infant.

 

[Meriweather]

You seem to think that most of humanity will be with God for eternity. How do you believe that when the default behavior of man is to rebel against God?

My "I don't know" is now read as I "seem to think most of humanity will be with God for eternity"? All I meant to convey is my own ignorance that I haven't the faintest idea. Still the default behavior of man to rebel vs the love of God...If these were sports teams I would be of the mind that the Love of God is the more powerful. I would be cheering on that team.

 

[buttercup]

The invitation is there for all.​

Wow. I clearly stated at least 3 times that of course the invitation is there to all! No one has denied that. Why do you keep saying that over and over when no one has argued otherwise?

It is to know God, love God, and serve God--and to be happy with him.​

Ok, so that is your answer? If that is what you believe about salvation, then I have to say you are leaving out a very important component. But if that is your final answer, at least you've finally made your view clear.

From early childhood, I took all of this seriously. I began by seeking God, and I did meet him in my own life, a teensy part of of the world, and a microscopic particle of time. Studying the Bible (takes decades) is also a good way to learn about and come to know God. As a kid, I had a very difficult time loving God above all else. Seriously, I kept a list of those I loved...and there was God at the bottom. It took decades before he made it to the top. Serving God I found easiest. We're to help one another, which is much easier than the knowing and loving parts!​

​

Knowing God steps us into the Commandments, the Sacraments, the Beatitudes, Redemption, and Salvation...in other words we pick up our cross daily and follow him.​

​

I don't consider any of the above "musts". They are invitations, graces, life-lines that are ours in this redeemed world on our way to salvation.​

I agree that it's important to seek and come to know God. And to serve God. But before we even get that far, I think it's essential to understand what the bible actually says about this topic, because there are many people who skip over a few important parts, and some might falsely believe they are redeemed. Remember when Jesus said, "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

Before we jump ahead to things like studying the bible and serving, etc... we have to understand our true spiritual condition and our need for redemption in the first place. We can't skip ahead to learning and serving if we are still in our natural state.

Jesus clearly stated that we must be born again. He emphasized it by repeating it and stating it in a way that shows the necessity of it. (John 3) We were already born physically, we need to be born spiritually. Other ways to describe is new birth, or regeneration.

Titus 3:5 puts it this way:

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."​

If we aren't born again, then no amount of good works or learning the bible or any of that will redeem us. To paint a very clear picture, I heard it put this way.... it's like "spraying perfume on a corpse" if we skip ahead to all of that.

There's more to be said, but I've spent way too much time here today. So hopefully hadit or someone else can take over for me if this discussion is still going on.

 

[Meriweather]

I have to say you are leaving out a very important component.

Perhaps what I said was overlooked?

some might falsely believe they are redeemed

In the Catholic faith every person has been redeemed. That mediation between God and humans was done for all. Can a redeemed person choose to stay with his/her captor? They could even when the price for their freedom has been paid. Perhaps your denomination defines redemption differently.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I have to say, you are as slippery as a greased pig. (lol...I'm sorry if that was blunt, but I had to say it.)

But I'm stubborn, so I'm not going to let you keep slipping away from answering the question

I know these are both true

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus clearly stated that we must be born again.

Seriously. Have you ever met a person of faith who was not born again into the Spirit? How did you judge this?

 

[ding]

Where does it show a child who doesn't even understand the concept of sin was ever baptized? Answer: it doesn't. Baptism is the outward manifestation of REPENTANCE. Babies don't repent. Most adults have never repented. As usual you make a lot of ASSumptions and read into the Bible what you'd like it to say.

From at least the 3rd century onward Christians baptized infants as standard practice, although some preferred to postpone baptism until late in life so as to ensure forgiveness for all their preceding sins.

The earliest reference to infant baptism was by Irenaeus (c. 130–202) in his work Against Heresies.[22][23]

Infant baptism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ding]

I am deadly serious. It sounds like you're saying that God will overlook sin and simply accept everyone into His house, in contradiction to Scripture. Is that what you believe?

So you don't believe everyone was redeemed through the blood of Christ?

 

[buttercup]

Seriously. Have you ever met a person of faith who was not born again into the Spirit? How did you judge this?

I'll put it this way.... I can think of a few relatives who are very devout and religious, who go to mass regularly, and they would definitely say they are people of faith. But at the same time, I see that even though they've been religious for basically their whole life, they don't obey God in many areas, they are very worldly (in other words just like anyone else out there) and there is no change and continual growth that I have seen in them, over the years. Also, they lack compassion and mercy, and are very prideful.

I don't say those things to declare that they are not saved...I'm not claiming that. Only God knows what is truly in people's hearts. But the point is, not everyone who says they are a Christian actually is. Jesus Himself said that.

This is why it's very important to understand what the bible actually teaches about salvation.

 

[Meriweather]

I'll put it this way.... I can think of a few relatives who are very devout and religious, who go to mass regularly, and they would definitely say they are people of faith. But at the same time, I see that even though they've been religious for basically their whole life, they don't obey God in many areas, they are very worldly (in other words just like anyone else out there) and there is no change and continual growth that I have seen in them, over the years. Also, they lack compassion and mercy, and are very prideful.

God be merciful to me, a sinner...

 

[buttercup]

God be merciful to me, a sinner...

Yes, that is what I was saying is necessary....understanding that we are a sinner (that is our natural state) in need of God's mercy and forgiveness.

But I still think you're not seeing what I've been saying. When we go from death to life, we are no longer in the same state. We literally become a new creation. Born of God. And now with the Holy Spirit. Does that mean we never sin anymore? No, of course we're not perfect and we're still going to miss the mark at times.

HOWEVER, we have a new nature, a new heart. We no longer want to do the same things we used to do. We're no longer a "sinner" in an official sense... although again that doesn't mean we'll never again sin.

So my point in bringing up that those devout religious relatives don't obey God in many areas and are worldly, etc.... is to show that when a person is regenerated, with God's seed in us, (1 Peter 1:23) continual growth and transformation is going to happen. Of course, sanctification doesn't happen instantly, justification is instant, but sanctification takes many years… but it does happen when a person is born again.

So if there is no significant change or growth - even when someone has been religious for many many decades, that is not a good sign.

Also, that scripture you posted in your previous reply shows that humility is necessary, and trusting in God and not our own works (if you read the whole passage in context)... We have to understand that it's not our works that save us, there's no way we can ever earn our way to salvation.

As I said earlier, my devout religious aunt and uncle are prideful, and in that scripture you posted, they are MUCH more like the Pharisee, who pridefully listed off all his works, which shows that he was trusting in himself..... not in God, like the tax collector.

So that scripture is not about us still being a sinner, even after coming to Christ. (which seems to be the way you were using it) .... It shows that we need to understand our true spiritual condition before salvation, and trust in HIM, not our own works. Because trusting in our own works misses the whole point, and is not a saving faith.

 

[surada]

Mary is mentioned in Revelation, though not by name. In Revelation it speaks of the Birth of Christ and the woman who had to go into the desert.

But other than that, I don't want to get into end times stuff. That is not exactly my forte. Also, it is off topic somewhat

You believe the revelation letter is futuristic?

Scofield presumed the kingdom of heaven to be a future reign of Jesus Christ on earth; but John and Jesus announced the time had been fulfilled, the kingdom was then at hand, men were entering it, and it required conditions of obedience by those entering it.

 

[surada]

Infants are no exception since they are born with the corrupt nature due to the original sin. Therefore, infants are baptized to insure their salvation.
Oct 13, 2012

Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the So...
The Sacrament of Baptism - Coptic Orthodox Church
The Orthodox also practice infant baptism on the basis of various texts (Luke 18:16, Acts 11:13–14, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 1 Corinthians 1:16, Genesis 7:1, …

Saint Anianus Coptic Orthodox Ch...
Baptism - Saint Anianus Coptic Orthodox Church

 

[buttercup]

Infants are no exception since they are born with the corrupt nature due to the original sin. Therefore, infants are baptized to insure their salvation.

Water baptism doesn't save anyone.

And even though we've already gone over this many times...infant baptism is unbiblical.

As several people have already CLEARLY shown from the scriptures, water baptism is tied to belief and repentance, and a baby is incapable of understanding any of it, so in reality infant baptism is meaningless... it doesn't save the baby and infant baptism doesn't even symbolize salvation, since salvation involves a decision, and you can't make that decision for someone else.

 

[surada]

Water baptism doesn't save anyone.

And even though we've already gone over this many times...infant baptism is unbiblical.

As several people have already CLEARLY shown from the scriptures, water baptism is tied to belief and repentance, and a baby is incapable of understanding any of it, so in reality infant baptism is meaningless... it doesn't save the baby and infant baptism doesn't even symbolize salvation, since salvation involves a decision, and you can't make that decision for someone else.

The Coptic church founded in 42 AD has infant baptism. Why do you have such a problem with it?

 

[buttercup]

The Coptic church founded in 42 AD has infant baptism. Why do you have such a problem with it?

Because it's not biblical, and for the reason I already stated in my previous post. It's meaningless. It also misleads people, who wrongly think it saves.

Water baptism is a symbolic outward expression of an actual inward change. When a person comes to Christ, they are a new creation, and Jesus gave us the example, of getting baptized AFTER one has believed and repented. He got water baptized at age 30, not as a baby. He was dedicated by His parents as a baby, but that's something different.

It is a picture of going from death to life. The scriptures back that up. When you go under water and come up again, it is a picture of burial + resurrection, and NEW LIFE in Christ!

Again, a baby cannot understand any of that, or make the decision.

 

[Meriweather]

Water baptism is a symbolic outward expression of an actual inward change.

By the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[buttercup]

By the power of the Holy Spirit?

Which specific thing are you asking about...regeneration? If so, then yes. We talked about that earlier.

But again, it involves a decision on our part. We have to RECEIVE the gift, which involves understanding one's spiritual condition (sinner) and our need for God in the first place. Again, throughout the New Testament water baptism is tied to belief and repentance. A baby cannot do that.

And again, you can't make that decision for someone else.

Now don't get me wrong. Just in case this wasn't clear earlier, this doesn't mean that babies are doomed because they can't make the decision. There is scriptural support that babies who die go to heaven. But that has zero to do with water baptism.

As I said to surada, one of the problems with infant baptism is some people think it insures their salvation. In fact, those were surada's words, she said, "infants are baptized to insure their salvation." That is false, and a dangerous idea, because it can cause adults who were baptized as a baby to falsely believe they are saved when they're actually not.