Brazil,80% of country on Ethanol flex fuel vehicles,with GM engines why not America?

[52ndStreet]

I saw a news report that Brazil is %80 percent independent from Oil.They use
%80 percent Ethanol now, and have flex fuel vehicles made by GM!,what is
the American Dept of Transportation waiting for?We are spending billions on Middle eastern oil, and Brazil is using it Sugar caine crop to fuel their vehicles,and the Flex Fuel engines are made by General Motors?!Can some one
explain to me what is going on?!

 

[dilloduck]

I saw a news report that Brazil is %80 percent independent from Oil.They use
%80 percent Ethanol now, and have flex fuel vehicles made by GM!,what is
the American Dept of Transportation waiting for?We are spending billions on Middle eastern oil, and Brazil is using it Sugar caine crop to fuel their vehicles,and the Flex Fuel engines are made by General Motors?!Can some one
explain to me what is going on?!

Really---I wish we had rain forests to cut down so we could pollute with ethanol instead of gasoline.

Brazilian CO2 pollution outstripping economic growth: study


by Staff Writers
Sao Paulo (AFP) Nov 19, 2007
The increase in CO2 pollution Brazil spewed out between 1994 and 2005 surpassed the rate of its economic growth, a study published Monday in the Folha de Sao Paulo newspaper said.
Carbon dioxide output over that period grew 45 percent, the report by the Economy and Energy Institute said.

The annual increase in the greenhouse gas production was 3.4 percent -- higher than the 2.6 percent yearly growth in gross domestic product, it said.

"The country is polluting more than the wealth it is creating," the newspaper said of the figures.

According to the Rio de Janeiro-based institute cited, Brazil pumped out 91 million tons of carbon gases in 2005, compared with 63 million tons in 1994.

That 2005 figure was higher than the carbon pollution put out by Austria and the Netherlands combined, the Folha de Sao Paulo noted.

It said the figures excluded emissions resulting from deforestation of the Amazon which, the daily stated, would make Brazil "the fifth-biggest polluter in the world" if included.

The director of the Economy and Energy Institute, Carlos Feu, said the hike in pollution output in Brazil could be put down to two causes: more cars were on the road, and Brazilians were using "dirtier" energy.

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/B...n_outstripping_economic_growth_study_999.html

 

[52ndStreet]

Really---I wish we had rain forests to cut down so we could pollute with ethanol instead of gasoline.

What about all those Corn fields in the Midwest?!Isn't corn converted to Ethanol also.

 

[dilloduck]

What about all those Corn fields in the Midwest?!Isn't corn converted to Ethanol also.

Ethanol isn't working out real well in the long run--for several reasons

 

[52ndStreet]

Ethanol isn't working out real well in the long run--for several reasons

Well, What are they?

 

[Charles_Main]

Really---I wish we had rain forests to cut down so we could pollute with ethanol instead of gasoline.



Brazilian CO2 pollution outstripping economic growth: study

Very good point, Ethanol is not a clean fuel source. when you burn it, it releases CO2 just like oil.

Not to mention that using Corn to make Ethanol has driving the price of many food staples up.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well, What are they?

It is inefficient for one, it takes more OIL based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol than that gallon you just made. It is based off Corn in this country which has doubled the cost of Corn and nearly driven ranches and farms that feed their livestock with out of Business. It has caused a large increase in food costs even before the fuel costs skyrocketed.

However the good news is Obama has already sold out to the Ethanol Industry and supports them 100 percent. To the detriment of the entire Country.

 

[Charles_Main]

It is inefficient for one, it takes more OIL based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol than that gallon you just made. It is based off Corn in this country which has doubled the cost of Corn and nearly driven ranches and farms that feed their livestock with out of Business. It has caused a large increase in food costs even before the fuel costs skyrocketed.

However the good news is Obama has already sold out to the Ethanol Industry and supports them 100 percent. To the detriment of the entire Country.

Not only is it inefficient to make, it burns much hotter than Gas, and there for less efficiently, which means you use more of it, to go the same distance as you would with Gas. Giving off all the more CO2 while you do it.

IMO anyways, ethanol as an alternative energy is nothing but a hoax to make money for corn farmers.

The only thing I can say about it is it is not foreign oil.

 

[JimH52]

Here is a reasonable alternative

Algae farm in Mexico to produce ethanol in 2009 - News - Cars

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Very good point, Ethanol is not a clean fuel source. when you burn it, it releases CO2 just like oil.

Not to mention that using Corn to make Ethanol has driving the price of many food staples up.

Very true. If ethanol were to undergo a dramatic rise in use, it'd have devastating effects on the price of food, which is already been driven up by increases in the price of oil, and it's screwing the stability of many a developing country. It's a pretty big downside to ethanol.

 

[Voltaire]

Hey guys, here's an article you might all be interested in:

Opposing view: Ethanol offsets oil prices - Yahoo! News

Apparently according to Merrill Lynch and the DOE, biofuel usage is saving the average American family about 350 to 500 dollars a year through mitigating skyrocketing gas prices, while the impact on food prices through usage of corn for ethanol only gets passed on to each family at a rate of 15 to 25 dollars per year.

Now, obviously people are seeing more than a 25 dollar increase in food expenditures per year (I know I am), but the Purdue University study in the article I've cited states that food prices are being primarily influenced by the rising oil prices themselves (about 75% responsible for rising prices), while ethanol production represents a much smaller slice of responsibility for food price increases.

I don't really have an opinion on the situation one way or the other, but I thought the information presented in this article provided some interesting insight on the complications facing our economy in this oil shocked world...

EDIT: Granted, this article does not present any data extrapolating future increases in ethanol production, which as Epsilon Delta Stated, could be devastating. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Chris]

Algae based ethanol, wind power, and solar power....that's the way to go.

Every house in America should have solar power and a wind turbine.

Remember the victory gardens in World War II? It should be like that.

 

[Voltaire]

Algae based ethanol, wind power, and solar power....that's the way to go.

Every house in America should have solar power and a wind turbine.

Remember the victory gardens in World War II? It should be like that.

That, and a return to a more sustainable, non-suburban lifestyle. Kind of like the one that existed before our victory in said war, and the subsequent development of the interstate highway system .

 

[Charles_Main]

Hey guys, here's an article you might all be interested in:

Opposing view: Ethanol offsets oil prices - Yahoo! News

Apparently according to Merrill Lynch and the DOE, biofuel usage is saving the average American family about 350 to 500 dollars a year through mitigating skyrocketing gas prices, while the impact on food prices through usage of corn for ethanol only gets passed on to each family at a rate of 15 to 25 dollars per year.

Now, obviously people are seeing more than a 25 dollar increase in food expenditures per year (I know I am), but the Purdue University study in the article I've cited states that food prices are being primarily influenced by the rising oil prices themselves (about 75% responsible for rising prices), while ethanol production represents a much smaller slice of responsibility for food price increases.

I don't really have an opinion on the situation one way or the other, but I thought the information presented in this article provided some interesting insight on the complications facing our economy in this oil shocked world...

EDIT: Granted, this article does not present any data extrapolating future increases in ethanol production, which as Epsilon Delta Stated, could be devastating. Thanks for pointing that out.

I am not so sure about that study, I mean I see no reason for them to lie or anything, But I posted a story a few weeks back about how the US farm raised catfish industry has been nearly bankrupted because they feed the fish corn and the price of a ton of it has gone up 300% since large scale use of Corn based Ethanol has been happening.

Now I know, who cares about catfish right, But Cows(beef and dairy), Sheep, Chickens, and Turkey, all are also fed a corn rich diet. Not to mention that corn is also used in Many many other products, in the form of Corn starch, Corn oil, corn Syrup, Etc.

I have a feeling the fast rising cost of corn is effecting things a bit more than that study says. I could be wrong but it only seems to make sense to me.

Besides this point is kinda mute, because as someone pointed out, The use oil to produce the Ethanol in the first place. So the production of Ethanol is actually helping to drive up the price of gas. Which this study says is the main culprit in rising food prices.

So it seems to me that corn based Ethanol, or any Ethanol that you need to use Oil to make, is not a really good alternative at all. Like I said I think it is all just a big scam. The corn producing industry probably dreampt it up

 

[Voltaire]

I think that the main thrust of what you're getting at Charles, and one of things that dooms almost any energy study, is that everything we do is so dependent on oil, that it seems utterly impossible to draw a real bead on the true "Energy Returned on Energy Invested." We use oil to provide fuel for the Big Agriculture combines harvesting that corn, petroleum products are used in solar cells, it goes on and on... the more you follow the spiral, the harder it is to find a way to dig back out.

Don't forget either that the article I posted was an opinion piece, so it is likely that he's cherry-picking parts of the study that support his opinion, as we all tend to do... but I think the main danger has already been pointed out, that while the Purdue and DOE studies indicate that things aren't critical yet, an increase in ethanol production could wipe away the tenuous and questionable economic benefits we're currently deriving from biofuels.

 

[Zoomie1980]

That, and a return to a more sustainable, non-suburban lifestyle. Kind of like the one that existed before our victory in said war, and the subsequent development of the interstate highway system .

That will never happen in your lifetime or mine. The Suburban lifestyle, single family detached home is one of those things at the very core of the American culture. They other is the car. What will solve the problem will be a new power source for the automobile, not less use of the auto. Most Americans will NEVER aspire to share a wall with someone else, and thus the suburban lifestyle will continue. It defines us as a people and makes us uniquely American.

There is absolutely NOTHING in Western European culture that any red-blooded true American should ever aspire to.

 

[Chris]

That will never happen in your lifetime or mine. The Suburban lifestyle, single family detached home is one of those things at the very core of the American culture. They other is the car. What will solve the problem will be a new power source for the automobile, not less use of the auto. Most Americans will NEVER aspire to share a wall with someone else, and thus the suburban lifestyle will continue. It defines us as a people and makes us uniquely American.

There is absolutely NOTHING in Western European culture that any red-blooded true American should ever aspire to.

Got to be the dumbest post of the year.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I saw a news report that Brazil is %80 percent independent from Oil.They use
%80 percent Ethanol now, and have flex fuel vehicles made by GM!,what is
the American Dept of Transportation waiting for?We are spending billions on Middle eastern oil, and Brazil is using it Sugar caine crop to fuel their vehicles,and the Flex Fuel engines are made by General Motors?!Can some one
explain to me what is going on?!

There are about as many cars on the road in the entire country of Brazil as what hits the road in Toledo Ohio each workday... It's one thing to produce ethanol for a country whose economy is about 1/100th that of the US

 

[Voltaire]

That will never happen in your lifetime or mine. The Suburban lifestyle, single family detached home is one of those things at the very core of the American culture. They other is the car. What will solve the problem will be a new power source for the automobile, not less use of the auto. Most Americans will NEVER aspire to share a wall with someone else, and thus the suburban lifestyle will continue. It defines us as a people and makes us uniquely American.

There is absolutely NOTHING in Western European culture that any red-blooded true American should ever aspire to.

We'll see how long the suburbs persist, when gas prices continue their inexorable march sky-high, the standard 20 mile commute of most Americans becomes unmanageable, and we come to terms with the fact that there is NO substitute that can begin to provide the same bang for the buck we got from cheap oil.

I'd like to think that there's more to being "uniquely American" than embracing a failed settlement pattern that is fueled primarily by a fake desire to live in the "country" and, in your case obviously, euro-phobia.

Mark my words, 20 years from now or sooner, the suburbs will be slums. Unless of course a serious investment in light rail and other mass transit makes commuting continue to be a possibility.

 

[Zoomie1980]

We'll see how long the suburbs persist, when gas prices continue their inexorable march sky-high, the standard 20 mile commute of most Americans becomes unmanageable, and we come to terms with the fact that there is NO substitute that can begin to provide the same bang for the buck we got from cheap oil.

I'd like to think that there's more to being "uniquely American" than embracing a failed settlement pattern that is fueled primarily by a fake desire to live in the "country" and, in your case obviously, euro-phobia.

Mark my words, 20 years from now or sooner, the suburbs will be slums. Unless of course a serious investment in light rail and other mass transit makes commuting continue to be a possibility.

Nope, the single family detached home WILL continue for generations to come. My neighborhood, nor most of them will not be a "slum" any time soon.

Now we very well will see a rebirth of rails, very likely. While Americans are consuming less, using more fuel efficient cars, which will become electric or fuel cell and will NOT cost enough to force Americans to give up their suburban lifestyle. We may see older neighborhoods nearer to city centers revive and we also will see a decentralization of business centers and an explosion of telecommunting allowing vast sums of work to take place at home, negating the need to commute at all.

But know, some sort of transformation to a Western European lifestyle is simply not going to happen even though it is clearly the wet dream of every secular-progressive elite urban liberal in the country. It simply is NOT going to happen.

And yes, Europe has absolutlely NOTHING of value to offer America.