Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

[airplanemechanic]

No, it was not designed to take out ICBMs. What in the hell gives you the idea that it was?

The United States Army | Redstone Arsenal Historical Information

"The PATRIOT is the U.S. Army's most advanced air defense system. Capable of defeating both high performance aircraft and tactical ballistic missiles, it is the only operational air defense system that can shoot down attacking missiles."

That last sentence is outdated. We now have Ageis. or however it's spelled.

 

[Mushroom]

The United States Army | Redstone Arsenal Historical Information

"The PATRIOT is the U.S. Army's most advanced air defense system. Capable of defeating both high performance aircraft and tactical ballistic missiles, it is the only operational air defense system that can shoot down attacking missiles."

That last sentence is outdated. We now have Ageis. or however it's spelled.

And you are trying to mix and match systems that are not the same thing.
Yes, PATRIOT is still the most advanced ground mobile air defense system currently deployed with the Army. However, you must also recognize that what you are using as a reference is "historical", and the data on it stops at 1995. That is almost thirty years ago, a hell of a lot has changed since then.

For one, we also now have THAAD. Which is actually the most powerful air defense system the Army has. However, it is still not yet "operational", even after almost two decades in service. It still only exists as two Provisional Batteries, and has yet to actually be integrated into the Army Air Defense network as a whole. And it will likely remain that way for at least another 6 years or more, as pretty much all expansion or development on ADA has been in limbo since 2008. And I see nothing changing in that in the near future.

And we have had AEGIS for decades now, that also is nothing new. However, it is a Naval system, and in no way portable other than the fact that ships can move. There is no way to convert it into a portable system for the Army, on the ground it can only exist as a permanent fixed position. Which is why Aegis Ashore was first proposed way back in the Reagan Administration. Which largely sat in limbo until President Bush converted it into a crash program.

But it was largely derailed again, as President Obama largely cancelled it, with the weird idea of positioning Naval ships permanently in Poland to provide missile defense. And I often postulate that it was the fact that President Putin approved of that decision that led President Obama to finally allow Poland and Romania to construct the first AEGIS Ashore facilities.

The fact of the matter is, AEGIS has always been the most power ABM system the US possessed since the late SM-2 and SM-3 missiles entered service. And that is largely due to the fact it has a significantly more powerful RADAR and a more powerful missile. Things that are simply not possible at all for the Army.

To put it in scale, the premier ABM missile of the PATRIOT system is the PAC-3. It weighs in at around 700 pounds, has a length of 5.3 meters, and can operate at up to 32,000 meters at Mach 3.5 with a maximum range of 160 km.

Meanwhile, the SM-3 weights in at over 1.5 tons, has a length of 6.5 meters, and can operate at altitudes of over 1,000lm, hits speeds of over Mach 13, and has a range of over 1,200 km.

And of course the RADAR. As the PATRIOT is coupled with a RADAR that is "only" 300kw. Meanwhile, SM-3 and AEGIS is behind a RADAR that is around 6 million kw.

Oh, and "AEGIS" is not just a missile defense system, it is actually an entire "combat system". It mostly centers around the AEGIS RADAR, but incorporates everything from rolling airframe missiles and CIWS to much-much more. From cruise missiles and anti-submarine weaponry to air defense missiles and more. And when it comes to this, the SM-2 and SM-3 missiles. But it is such a large system that it can never be "mobile" outside of being built inside of a ship. Unless you actually build it into a structure.

Which in itself is nothing new. When I was at White Sands, I got to visit USS Desert Ship (LLS-1). Literally a mock-up of a ship in the New Mexico desert that is used to test and develop new missile and RADAR systems for the Navy. AEGIS Ashore is literally just a scaled down version of that, only installing the systems needed to operate the RADAR itself and the missiles.

Myself, I am actually hoping that someday a President has the cojones to actually start deploying AEGIS Ashore inside the US to start defending key locations. But none of the past three Presidents ever even considered that, and I can't see our next president doing it either.

 

[airplanemechanic]

And you are trying to mix and match systems that are not the same thing.
Yes, PATRIOT is still the most advanced ground mobile air defense system currently deployed with the Army. However, you must also recognize that what you are using as a reference is "historical", and the data on it stops at 1995. That is almost thirty years ago, a hell of a lot has changed since then.

For one, we also now have THAAD. Which is actually the most powerful air defense system the Army has. However, it is still not yet "operational", even after almost two decades in service. It still only exists as two Provisional Batteries, and has yet to actually be integrated into the Army Air Defense network as a whole. And it will likely remain that way for at least another 6 years or more, as pretty much all expansion or development on ADA has been in limbo since 2008. And I see nothing changing in that in the near future.

And we have had AEGIS for decades now, that also is nothing new. However, it is a Naval system, and in no way portable other than the fact that ships can move. There is no way to convert it into a portable system for the Army, on the ground it can only exist as a permanent fixed position. Which is why Aegis Ashore was first proposed way back in the Reagan Administration. Which largely sat in limbo until President Bush converted it into a crash program.

But it was largely derailed again, as President Obama largely cancelled it, with the weird idea of positioning Naval ships permanently in Poland to provide missile defense. And I often postulate that it was the fact that President Putin approved of that decision that led President Obama to finally allow Poland and Romania to construct the first AEGIS Ashore facilities.

The fact of the matter is, AEGIS has always been the most power ABM system the US possessed since the late SM-2 and SM-3 missiles entered service. And that is largely due to the fact it has a significantly more powerful RADAR and a more powerful missile. Things that are simply not possible at all for the Army.

To put it in scale, the premier ABM missile of the PATRIOT system is the PAC-3. It weighs in at around 700 pounds, has a length of 5.3 meters, and can operate at up to 32,000 meters at Mach 3.5 with a maximum range of 160 km.

Meanwhile, the SM-3 weights in at over 1.5 tons, has a length of 6.5 meters, and can operate at altitudes of over 1,000lm, hits speeds of over Mach 13, and has a range of over 1,200 km.

And of course the RADAR. As the PATRIOT is coupled with a RADAR that is "only" 300kw. Meanwhile, SM-3 and AEGIS is behind a RADAR that is around 6 million kw.

Oh, and "AEGIS" is not just a missile defense system, it is actually an entire "combat system". It mostly centers around the AEGIS RADAR, but incorporates everything from rolling airframe missiles and CIWS to much-much more. From cruise missiles and anti-submarine weaponry to air defense missiles and more. And when it comes to this, the SM-2 and SM-3 missiles. But it is such a large system that it can never be "mobile" outside of being built inside of a ship. Unless you actually build it into a structure.

Which in itself is nothing new. When I was at White Sands, I got to visit USS Desert Ship (LLS-1). Literally a mock-up of a ship in the New Mexico desert that is used to test and develop new missile and RADAR systems for the Navy. AEGIS Ashore is literally just a scaled down version of that, only installing the systems needed to operate the RADAR itself and the missiles.

Myself, I am actually hoping that someday a President has the cojones to actually start deploying AEGIS Ashore inside the US to start defending key locations. But none of the past three Presidents ever even considered that, and I can't see our next president doing it either.

Wonderful. You're still wrong and I'm still right. You said Patriot couldn't shoot down ballistic missiles. I proved you wrong, with 30 year old technology. You jump around and move the goalposts when proven wrong. Our discussion has nothing to do with Ageis (sp?)

 

[Mushroom]

You said Patriot couldn't shoot down ballistic missiles.

I did? Oh please quote me where I said that.

Now, do you care to read what I actually said?

It does. However, the PATRIOT is not designed to intercept IRBMs.

Notice, I specified IRBMs, and that also includes ICBMs. Now where did I ever say it could not shoot down "ballistic missiles"? I can tell you right now, I never said that. But please, if I said that then quote it and prove me wrong.

PATRIOT can shoot down ballistic missiles, it has been doing it for over three decades. But SRBMs and MRBMs, not IRBMs and ICBMs. Not all ballistic missiles are the same, and I think the difference is that I actually recognize that simple fact, and know what the system can and can not do. You are trying to super-simplify everything and make it an absolute either-or thing.

But please, either correct what you said or actually quote anywhere that I said PATRIOT could not shoot down ballistic missiles. Because as you can see from what I quoted above, I was being very specific there.

 

[Vrenn]

Read this today on X....
Any military guys here have any comment on this?


So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand this. I've done the math on the kinetic energy of the submunitions (using estimates for mass), and I've studied up on what's publicly known about these weapons so far. My conclusion? NATO is done. The west has no idea what just hit them. Russia's Oreshnik weapon system is checkmate for NATO and the USA. All U.S. aircraft carriers can be destroyed in minutes. All U.S. military bases, all underground bunkers, all ICBM launch sites, naval shipyards, etc., can be destroyed with NON-NUCLEAR kinetic energy via the Oreshnik. There are no active treaties (that I'm aware of) prohibiting this weapon system, and it doesn't destroy surrounding infrastructure or masses of civilians. It is a devastating, unstoppable surgical strike weapon that basically drops metal lightning out of the sky like Thor's Hammer or the comets of God. Nobody has any defense against it, and the range of these weapons, once mounted on intercontinental boosters, is global. The west must now either back off or go nuclear. They will probably choose to go nuclear out of desperation, be warned. Russia has just changed the course of warfare and achieved global dominance. NOBODY in the western press even has a clue. They are too stupid, too woke or too arrogant to realize what just happened. This is like playing chess with Putin and thinkin you might be competitive, then suddenly Putin's queen unleashes a flamethrower across the chess board and roasts all your pieces, setting them on fire. You thought you were playing "chess" but Putin was playing a different game called "flamethrower." It's that big of a deal.

Let's see. You keep trying to say that Russia is the only one with hypermach weapons and it's something new. Hell, the Germans had a hyperspeed weapon called V-2. The US had their own but they never introduced it into production during WWII.

What is Hypersonic? The definition is anything faster than mach 3.5. Scuds are faster than that yet the Patriots can easily shoot them down. Sattelites are faster than 17,000 miles and hour yet a F-15 obliterated a sat which was flying at over 24,000 mph. At this same time, the Navy had the Phoenix system which would be labeled a hypersonic weapon. Half of the modern air to air and air to ground missiles exceed Mach 3.5.

Hell, the SR-71 once his Mach 3.56 making it also a hypersonic bird. The Missiles that were being fired on the SR were also hypersonic but the guidance on them allowed the SR to out distance them.

So does the Russians have the majority of the Hypersonic weapons? Not even close.

 

[justoffal]

Let's see. You keep trying to say that Russia is the only one with hypermach weapons and it's something new. Hell, the Germans had a hyperspeed weapon called V-2. The US had their own but they never introduced it into production during WWII.

What is Hypersonic? The definition is anything faster than mach 3.5. Scuds are faster than that yet the Patriots can easily shoot them down. Sattelites are faster than 17,000 miles and hour yet a F-15 obliterated a sat which was flying at over 24,000 mph. At this same time, the Navy had the Phoenix system which would be labeled a hypersonic weapon. Half of the modern air to air and air to ground missiles exceed Mach 3.5.

Hell, the SR-71 once his Mach 3.56 making it also a hypersonic bird. The Missiles that were being fired on the SR were also hypersonic but the guidance on them allowed the SR to out distance them.

So does the Russians have the majority of the Hypersonic weapons? Not even close.

I'm not saying anything....
I'm bringing some information that was posted on the internet and asking people here in the know what they think of it. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that most of it is BS. I will note one thing however after that single retaliation by Russia there has been no more talk of using long range missiles. So something changed.

 

[Vrenn]

I'm not saying anything....
I'm bringing some information that was posted on the internet and asking people here in the know what they think of it. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that most of it is BS. I will note one thing however after that single retaliation by Russia there has been no more talk of using long range missiles. So something changed.

Oh, the long ranged ones of 300 miles or more are being used. You sell your Putin buddy way to high on this one.

 

[justoffal]

Oh, the long ranged ones of 300 miles or more are being used. You sell your Putin buddy way to high on this one.

I don't think so.... There have been no more recorded strikes from long range weapons since that day. Care to show me where you getting your information from? And what's with the Putin buddy bullshit? Can't you have a conversation without politicizing it? What are you in the third grade?

 

[Vrenn]

I don't think so.... There have been no more recorded strikes from long range weapons since that day. Care to show me where you getting your information from? And what's with the Putin buddy bullshit? Can't you have a conversation without politicizing it? What are you in the third grade?

Russia may have used all they had. It was an experimental IRBM. It has a range of about 500 miles.

There's significant fear in Ukraine and in European capitals that Trump could cut U.S. support for Kyiv, forcing President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's government to accept a negotiated truce with Russia that sees Ukraine give up land occupied by Putin's forces.

 

[justoffal]

Russia may have used all they had. It was an experimental IRBM. It has a range of about 500 miles.

There's significant fear in Ukraine and in European capitals that Trump could cut U.S. support for Kyiv, forcing President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's government to accept a negotiated truce with Russia that sees Ukraine give up land occupied by Putin's forces.

This war has to be brought to an end one way or another. First of all Zalensky is not fighting it with his own money. And I have some news for you...there's no way you're going to grind Russia down to nothing. They need to come up with a truce and pursue the recovery of their land through international means and economic pressure.

Putin's not going to live forever. Ukraine will get its land back. However I would recommend that Ukraine chooses better friends than NATO. So far all that NATO has done for them is destroy their country and use them to fight a proxy war.

 

[Vrenn]

This war has to be brought to an end one way or another. First of all Zalensky is not fighting it with his own money. And I have some news for you...there's no way you're going to grind Russia down to nothing. They need to come up with a truce and pursue the recovery of their land through international means and economic pressure.

Putin's not going to live forever. Ukraine will get its land back. However I would recommend that Ukraine chooses better friends than NATO. So far all that NATO has done for them is destroy their country and use them to fight a proxy war.

Possession is 9/10ths. And once a country takes the land forget about ever giving it back unless there comes a cost. Right now, Russia is paying that cost.

 

[justoffal]

Possession is 9/10ths. And once a country takes the land forget about ever giving it back unless there comes a cost. Right now, Russia is paying that cost.

Actually no it's not Russia paying the cost It's the United States and most of the money is being plunded and grifted not necessarily by ukrainians but by United States elected politicians who are probably the most dishonest people on the planet. The warring needs to stop It's time to start shipping construction equipment and construction applies to Ukraine instead of warring equipment. Additionally Ukraine should be bitching at NATO because NATO is the one that started this whole thing in the first place on purpose.... Everyone wants the 15 trillion dollars in mineral rights that belong to those two provinces. Additionally perhaps the people who live in those provinces should be polled individually to find out where they really want to be. It's my understanding that more than half of them would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. This isn't about giving Putin what he wants or denying Putin what he wants This is about the reality of completely destroying the lives of people who live in the crossfire. It's time to stop.

 

[Litwin]

Read this today on X....
Any military guys here have any comment on this?


So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand this. I've done the math on the kinetic energy of the submunitions (using estimates for mass), and I've studied up on what's publicly known about these weapons so far. My conclusion? NATO is done. The west has no idea what just hit them. Russia's Oreshnik weapon system is checkmate for NATO and the USA. All U.S. aircraft carriers can be destroyed in minutes. All U.S. military bases, all underground bunkers, all ICBM launch sites, naval shipyards, etc., can be destroyed with NON-NUCLEAR kinetic energy via the Oreshnik. There are no active treaties (that I'm aware of) prohibiting this weapon system, and it doesn't destroy surrounding infrastructure or masses of civilians. It is a devastating, unstoppable surgical strike weapon that basically drops metal lightning out of the sky like Thor's Hammer or the comets of God. Nobody has any defense against it, and the range of these weapons, once mounted on intercontinental boosters, is global. The west must now either back off or go nuclear. They will probably choose to go nuclear out of desperation, be warned. Russia has just changed the course of warfare and achieved global dominance. NOBODY in the western press even has a clue. They are too stupid, too woke or too arrogant to realize what just happened. This is like playing chess with Putin and thinkin you might be competitive, then suddenly Putin's queen unleashes a flamethrower across the chess board and roasts all your pieces, setting them on fire. You thought you were playing "chess" but Putin was playing a different game called "flamethrower." It's that big of a deal.

just a putin´s wunderwaffe (Potemkin village), much like Armata

Why Putin's Main Battle Tank Is A Joke ​

 

[Mushroom]

You said Patriot couldn't shoot down ballistic missiles.

It's been a couple of weeks, and I am still waiting for the proof that I said that PATRIOT could not shoot down ballistic missiles.

 

[Vrenn]

Actually no it's not Russia paying the cost It's the United States and most of the money is being plunded and grifted not necessarily by ukrainians but by United States elected politicians who are probably the most dishonest people on the planet. The warring needs to stop It's time to start shipping construction equipment and construction applies to Ukraine instead of warring equipment. Additionally Ukraine should be bitching at NATO because NATO is the one that started this whole thing in the first place on purpose.... Everyone wants the 15 trillion dollars in mineral rights that belong to those two provinces. Additionally perhaps the people who live in those provinces should be polled individually to find out where they really want to be. It's my understanding that more than half of them would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. This isn't about giving Putin what he wants or denying Putin what he wants This is about the reality of completely destroying the lives of people who live in the crossfire. It's time to stop.

The I suggest you force the invaders and tell them to go home and allow the Ukrainians to go home as well.

 

[airplanemechanic]

It's been a couple of weeks, and I am still waiting for the proof that I said that PATRIOT could not shoot down ballistic missiles.

Quit trying to move the goalposts.

Your reply after I said they were already hit with Patriots.

Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

Read this today on X.... Any military guys here have any comment on this? So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand...

www.usmessageboard.com

Yet again you saying PATRIOT can't do it because it wasn't designed to do it. Yet you were wrong again. Patriot got a software upgrade 35 years ago that allowed it to track and intercept ICBM's. It's only had more and more updates since then. You might have experience with Patriot a LONG ASS time ago, but it's been upgraded NUMEROUS times. Most recently the war in Ukraine.

Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

Read this today on X.... Any military guys here have any comment on this? So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand...

www.usmessageboard.com

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

www.defensemirror.com

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

 

[Litwin]

Possession is 9/10ths. And once a country takes the land forget about ever giving it back unless there comes a cost. Right now, Russia is paying that cost.

Top technology nothing to say more. May be missing writings "Na Berlin".

 

[Mushroom]

Quit trying to move the goalposts.

Your reply after I said they were already hit with Patriots.

Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

Read this today on X.... Any military guys here have any comment on this? So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand...

www.usmessageboard.com

I am not moving goalposts at all. I have actually kept them very firmly planted, you are the one that keeps moving them.

And was I incorrect? Has PATRIOT hit the Oreshnik? If it has, then please provide a reference that it has hit it. As I said, you are wrong because what it hit was the Kh-47M2 Kinzhal (NATO AS-24 KILLJOY) ALBM, not the Oreshnik.

Period.

Yet again you saying PATRIOT can't do it because it wasn't designed to do it. Yet you were wrong again. Patriot got a software upgrade 35 years ago that allowed it to track and intercept ICBM's. It's only had more and more updates since then. You might have experience with Patriot a LONG ASS time ago, but it's been upgraded NUMEROUS times. Most recently the war in Ukraine.

Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

Read this today on X.... Any military guys here have any comment on this? So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand...

www.usmessageboard.com

And once again, where did I ever freaking say it could not hit a ballistic missile? Nowhere in that post of mine you quoted did I ever say that, I said it could not hit an ICBM. In fact, I very clearly stated that it is indeed designed to hit SRBMs, and is just within the capabilities if hitting an MRBM. Which by the very definition both of which are Ballistic Missiles. So thank you, as you have proven yourself very wrong in that, and pointed out that I did in fact quite clearly state that it could hit ballistic missiles. Simply not IRBMs and ICBMs.

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

www.defensemirror.com

Software Tweak Enabled PATRIOT Systems to Intercept Hypersonic Missiles in Ukraine: Raytheon Chief

OK, here is you simply falling for what is largely nonsense.

Every ballistic missile is a "hypersonic missile". Even the SCUD that we were hitting in 1991 and 2003 were hypersonic missiles. So what? Where did I ever say that PATRIOT could not hit a hypersonic missile? The problem here is that you really do not know what you are talking about, and trying to mix and match all kinds of things that really do not go together at all. Like trying to state that the AS-24 KILLJOY and the Oreshnik are the same thing.

I suggest you read your own reference yet again. Where in there anywhere does it talk about the Oreshnik? Where does it talk about it being able to hit any IRBM or ICBM? Or that it can hit all targets? Because it quite clearly says otherwise.

Last time, I have not moved the goalposts at all, you are the one that moves them all over the freaking field, then claiming you are correct, even when your own damned references say you are not.

Where did I ever state that PATRIOT could not hit a ballistic missile?

But thank you, for actually quoting one of my posts where I quite clearly stated that PATRIOT can indeed hit ballistic missiles. I find it particularly hilarious that you claim I said it could not, then you actually quote one of my posts where I quite clearly state that it can.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Vrenn]

then I suggest you take your toys, go home, and allow Ukraine to exist.