Zone1 Another question to ponder.

And? Lots of random things can accumulate over eons.
There's nothing random in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. Maybe what you mean is chaotic.

But you seem to be dismissing the point. Change the structure, distance or charges of sub atomic particles even slightly and the universe could have been created in the exact same way but would be devoid of life.
 
So you don't believe the universe provides for the needs of its living creatures? And you don't believe man celebrates good and demonizes evil?

Because I do believe it's pretty self evident that as a rule the universe provides for the needs of its living creatures and man celebrates good and demonizes evil.

I think I have some pretty good reasons and evidence for those beliefs. Can you tell me some of the reasons and evidence you don't believe those are true statements?
Good and Evil is relative. Should Gandhi and Hitler share the same Hell? It's possible one doesn't get punished for evil or they punish themselves. Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Should we be remembered for the best e have done or the worst?
 
Not me. I studied what was created. How about you? What have you studied?
A little bit of everything. I as an avid reader, read a lot of religious texts, sci-fi, etc. At one time I tried to learn everything. Literally everything. Didn't work. I'm satisfied with the little I know now.
 
Slyhunter

Is it possible for agnostics to know the following things? Because that's providence.

The universe provides for its creatures through fundamental physical laws, the right ingredients (like water, carbon, heavy elements from stars), a suitable environment (like a stable star and planetary orbit), and ongoing processes like solar energy, planetary cycles (wind, rain), and the formation of complex molecules, all allowing life to emerge, adapt, and thrive by finding and extracting energy. It's a cosmic recipe of physics, chemistry, and timing, where elements forged in stars become the building blocks for life on planets like Earth.

Key Universal Provisions:
  • Fundamental Laws: Gravity and nuclear forces create stars, while physical laws allow stable elements to form and chemistry to occur.
  • Essential Ingredients: The Big Bang created hydrogen, but stars forge heavier elements (carbon, oxygen, iron) that are essential for complex life and scattered by supernovae.
  • The Right "Recipe": Life needs liquid water (a universal solvent), carbon (for organic molecules), and a stable energy source like a star, all within a habitable zone.
  • Planetary Conditions: Earth's orbit, a stabilizing moon, and a gas giant like Jupiter (to deflect asteroids) create a protective environment.
  • Energy & Cycles: The Sun provides constant energy, while atmospheric gases (like water vapor) create a greenhouse effect, keeping temperatures moderate.
  • The Cycle of Life: Elements are recycled through stellar life and death (stardust), providing raw materials for new stars and planets, creating a continuous cycle of cosmic creation.

How Creatures Utilize These Provisions:
  • Energy Extraction: Organisms evolved to extract energy, from early bacteria using chemicals to plants using sunlight (photosynthesis) and animals using oxygen (respiration).
  • Building Blocks: Organisms use carbon, water, and other elements to build proteins, fats, and complex cells.
  • Adaptation: Life forms constantly adapt to extract energy and survive within the specific conditions provided by their planet and star.
Ultimately, the universe provides the stage, the props (elements), and the energy, while life emerges as a complex, adaptable process of extracting and utilizing these cosmic resources.
Life could simply be a side effect and not the purpose.
 
There's nothing random in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. Maybe what you mean is chaotic.

But you seem to be dismissing the point. Change the structure, distance or charges of sub atomic particles even slightly and the universe could have been created in the exact same way but would be devoid of life.
an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of type writers for an infinite number of years will eventually reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare.

I once saw a potato chip that looked just like a duck. What are the odds of that?

even 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.000 odds means there is still that one chance.
 
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Because a book told you so. There are lots of books telling other things as well.

Because the Bible, which is of the Holy Spirit, says so, and the Holy Ghost within us gives it to us to believe and to know. Thus we know.

That's right, there are lots of other books saying lots of things.

Quantrill
 
I am reminded of something Carl Sagen said in the article, 'Is There Life On Mars' in Time Magazine, Dec. 13, 1971. He said concerning finding life as we know humans to be on other planets:

"The building blocks of life are lying around everywhere."

"Even so, life elsewhere in the universe might resemble nothing on earth. It would be molded by different environments and possibly by different chemistries."

"If we started the earth all over again, even with the same physical conditions, and just let random factors operate, we would never get anything remotely resembling human beings."

"There are just too many accidents in our evolutionary past for things closely resembling human beings to arise anywhere else."

Sagan was agnostic, but he knew the complexities involving the universe and human life. And for him the chances that human life as we know it, to occur again, were too astronomical to accept.

My opinion: Sagan is standing at the very edge of belief in God. Standing and seeing the outstanding evidence of creation before him, yet refusing to make the last step. He says it is too complex (accidents) to just happen again. But if that were true, if it could never happen again, then neither could it have ever just happened.

Quantrill
 
an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of type writers for an infinite number of years will eventually reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare.
Mathematically, with truly infinite monkeys, typewriters, and time, they would eventually produce Shakespeare's complete works with probability 1, but recent studies show that in our finite universe, even with countless monkeys typing for eons, the chance is astronomically small, essentially impossible, far exceeding the universe's lifespan. The classic theorem highlights probability, but real-world constraints (finite time, atoms, energy) make it practically impossible, meaning we're more likely to see "infinite broken typewriters" first.
 
The Universe is huge, and I believe in the possibility of multi-versus (not alts). So anything is possible.
So then you do believe that it is possible that a moralistic and providential Creator created the universe such that beings that know and create would eventually arise.
 
Good and Evil is relative. Should Gandhi and Hitler share the same Hell? It's possible one doesn't get punished for evil or they punish themselves. Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Should we be remembered for the best e have done or the worst?
To me hell is being eternally separated from God. I don't believe God separates Himself from us. I believe we separate ourselves from God because of hardened hearts which are incapable of accepting God's love. That's as far as I will ever take it.

Yes, no one is all good or all bad. Which is why I don't judge the person. I don't have perfect information to make that judgement, but there's nothing wrong with judging behaviors and actions though as long as it is done without bias.

What do you mean by good and evil are relative?
 
Life could simply be a side effect and not the purpose.
That wasn't the question. The question was were the things listed knowable? I say they most certainly are knowable. The universe provides for its creatures through fundamental physical laws, the right ingredients (like water, carbon, heavy elements from stars), a suitable environment (like a stable star and planetary orbit), and ongoing processes like solar energy, planetary cycles (wind, rain), and the formation of complex molecules, all allowing life to emerge, adapt, and thrive by finding and extracting energy. It's a cosmic recipe of physics, chemistry, and timing, where elements forged in stars become the building blocks for life on planets like Earth.
 
Because the Bible, which is of the Holy Spirit, says so, and the Holy Ghost within us gives it to us to believe and to know. Thus we know.

That's right, there are lots of other books saying lots of things.

Quantrill
Your logic requires faith not logic or actual proof.
 
Because the Bible, which is of the Holy Spirit, says so, and the Holy Ghost within us gives it to us to believe and to know. Thus we know.

That's right, there are lots of other books saying lots of things.

Quantrill
Unable to think for yourself you define the so called bible in a way that fits your beliefs regardless of what is really meant. This kind of concrete parochial mind is limited and in many ways very much like the atheists mind. You invent a concept of God then act as if its universal. Its not its your interpretation and quite primitive.
 
So then you do believe that it is possible that a moralistic and providential Creator created the universe such that beings that know and create would eventually arise.
"would eventually arise?" I thought he was the Omega.
 
To me hell is being eternally separated from God. I don't believe God separates Himself from us. I believe we separate ourselves from God because of hardened hearts which are incapable of accepting God's love. That's as far as I will ever take it.

Yes, no one is all good or all bad. Which is why I don't judge the person. I don't have perfect information to make that judgement, but there's nothing wrong with judging behaviors and actions though as long as it is done without bias.

What do you mean by good and evil are relative?
What is best for my family is not necessarily best for my country. Good and evil depends on the perspective of the viewer, like beauty.
 
15th post
That wasn't the question. The question was were the things listed knowable? I say they most certainly are knowable. The universe provides for its creatures through fundamental physical laws, the right ingredients (like water, carbon, heavy elements from stars), a suitable environment (like a stable star and planetary orbit), and ongoing processes like solar energy, planetary cycles (wind, rain), and the formation of complex molecules, all allowing life to emerge, adapt, and thrive by finding and extracting energy. It's a cosmic recipe of physics, chemistry, and timing, where elements forged in stars become the building blocks for life on planets like Earth.
accident. They say Monkeys could eventually randomly type out a Shakespearean play. make something large enough a lot of randomize elements can occur the might look like were done on purpose.
 
What is best for my family is not necessarily best for my country. Good and evil depends on the perspective of the viewer, like beauty.
Or you could just admit to doing evil.
 
Because the Bible, which is of the Holy Spirit, says so, and the Holy Ghost within us gives it to us to believe and to know. Thus we know.

That's right, there are lots of other books saying lots of things.

Quantrill
So when is your holy ghost or spirit going to tell the rest of us?
 

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