Zone1 Another question to ponder.

[BULLDOG]

Yes, it matters. It matters in how you read the passages. As a supposed deacon you should know that. Not believing in God isn't good enough for you. You don't want anyone to believe in God. You are a militant atheist through and through. Former deacon my ass.

As always, you are free to believe what you choose. That doesn't mean you are right
This is a discussion board where you might see things that challenge your beliefs. You might want to find a TV preachers discussion board. I'm sure your beliefs will be challenged less often.

 

[BULLDOG]

Let's get Huston Smith's opinion on this. He's a renowned expert on world religions. Not a militant atheist pretending he was a former deacon.

Huston Smith did not typically describe the God of the Old Testament (OT) as "cruel"; rather, he generally sought to understand and present the essence of different religious traditions, emphasizing their shared human concerns and transcendent realities. His approach to the problem of evil and suffering was to minimize it by asserting that evil is ultimately unreal within the divine totality, or to view the world as perfect within a larger, divine context.
Instead of focusing on the perceived cruelty of the OT God, the sources indicate that Smith's broader philosophical and theological views included:

• Religious Pluralism: Smith believed that all major faith traditions, despite their surface differences, share fundamental themes and ultimately point toward the same "Ultimate Reality". He argued for understanding each religion on its own terms and celebrating their diversity.
• Rejection of Literalism: Smith was skeptical of rigid biblical literalism, suggesting that scripture, particularly narratives, could be interpreted allegorically to find deeper meaning, a view he noted was shared by some church fathers.
• Problem of Evil:When addressing the problem of evil, he did not attribute it to God's cruelty but rather suggested that:
  • Evil is a result of human free will and the "original sin" of self-centeredness and egotism built into the human condition.
  • Suffering can be an educational process ("soul-making") that helps humans develop moral virtues, a view drawing on Irenaean theodicy.
• Divine Transcendence: Smith emphasized that the divine is fundamentally inexpressible and "completely beyond us," which means all human descriptions of God (including those in scripture) are fallible and inadequate.

In essence, Smith's philosophical framework led him to reinterpret or move beyond the interpretations that see the OT God as cruel, focusing instead on the underlying spiritual lessons and the transcendent nature of the divine.

He seems like an interesting person, but he would probably be drummed out of most Christian congregations. Your own link says he avoids literalism. Today's Christians have only a select group of passages they take literally (the parts they like) The passages considered to be literal are the basis for Christianity.

 

[BULLDOG]

Because it couldn't be that the Jews believed God was on their side and crafted their narratives accordingly.

The ancient Jews generally believed that God (Yahweh) had a special covenant with them and was on their side, and their sacred narratives were indeed crafted to reflect this belief and reveal divine purpose in human history. This perspective evolved over time from a belief in a tribal warrior deity to ethical monotheism, where history itself was seen as the primary arena for divine revelation.

Belief in Divine Support and Covenant

• Chosen People, Special Covenant: The foundational belief was that the Israelites were "chosen" by God to uphold a unique covenant (treaty). This implied a special, protected relationship in exchange for their exclusive worship and obedience to divine law.
• Yahweh as Warrior: In early Israelite belief (known as Yahwism, which was initially monolatrous, meaning they worshiped only one god while potentially acknowledging the existence of others), Yahweh was often portrayed as a divine warrior who fought for Israel or with them in battles. Military successes were attributed to God's intervention, and the army was considered "Yahweh's army".
• Divine Justice: While God was "on their side," this support was conditional on their adherence to the covenant and ethical demands. When the Israelites suffered defeat, it was interpreted as divine punishment for their disobedience and worship of other gods, not a sign of God's weakness or absence. This allowed them to reconcile their belief in a powerful God with national misfortunes like the Babylonian Exile.

Narratives as "His-Story"
The ancient Jewish people viewed their national history as a narrative of God's interaction with them, where events were given theological meaning.

• The Exodus as Foundational Narrative: The Exodus from Egypt is the central example, portrayed not just as an escape from slavery but as a powerful act of divine redemption and a radical break from the values of the ancient Near East. The story is told to illustrate God's power and promise to make them His people.
• History Over Nature: Unlike neighboring cultures that focused on nature cycles in their myths, the Israelite narratives focused on linear history as the setting for God's purposes. The interpretation of historical events—victories, defeats, and exile—produced their theology.
• Crafted for Meaning: The biblical texts were compiled and edited over centuries to reflect this evolving religious understanding, especially during and after the Exilic period when the religion fully transitioned to uncompromising monotheism. The narratives served to reinforce their unique identity and their understanding of their place in the world under their single, righteous God.

In essence, the narratives were not modern historical accounts but divinely interpreted histories, designed to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

I suppose the ancient Jews really did believe all those things you claim. Like all cults, they were able to overlook despicable behavior and only concentrate on how wonderful they believed their cult leader to be. You see the same behavior in modern day cults too, like the Maga Cult.

 

[BULLDOG]

Meaning you read it literally like an idiot. Because it couldn't be that the Jews believed God was on their side and crafted their narratives accordingly

Crafting their narratives accordingly is just a cute way of saying made up shit. You are basing your religious beliefs on made up shit.

 

[Meriweather]

I can almost fall for "it's god, and he works in mysterious ways". I did for years, but massive conflicts with all logic is too far.

What is there to "fall for"? It's merely a concept to ponder.

 

[BULLDOG]

What is there to "fall for"? It's merely a concept to ponder.

It's more than just a concept to consider. Believing is the major requirement for Christianity.

 

[ding]

As always, you are free to believe what you choose. That doesn't mean you are right
This is a discussion board where you might see things that challenge your beliefs. You might want to find a TV preachers discussion board. I'm sure your beliefs will be challenged less often.

I don't mind my beliefs being challenged. I'm just shocked that a former deacon was taught and taught others to read the bible literally without any thought to how dumb those interpretations must have sounded.

Didn't it ever occur to you that there was a much more logical interpretation? I mean surely as a deacon you had parishioners ask you about God condoning slavery and violence in the OT. What did you tell them that made sense?

 

[ding]

He seems like an interesting person, but he would probably be drummed out of most Christian congregations. Your own link says he avoids literalism. Today's Christians have only a select group of passages they take literally (the parts they like) The passages considered to be literal are the basis for Christianity.

He's dead. But he was world renowned so you'd be wrong.

Every argument against God that you have made is based upon a literal reading of the OT. How is that even possible if it's as you say that Christians only have a select group of passages they read literally?

 

[ding]

I suppose the ancient Jews really did believe all those things you claim. Like all cults, they were able to overlook despicable behavior and only concentrate on how wonderful they believed their cult leader to be. You see the same behavior in modern day cults too, like the Maga Cult.

Good Lord, you totally missed the point. Apparently you still don't believe that Jews believed God was on their side and crafted their narratives accordingly. That all of the passages you bring up were divinely interpreted histories, designed to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

 

[ding]

Crafting their narratives accordingly is just a cute way of saying made up shit. You are basing your religious beliefs on made up shit.

Or passing down information orally from generation to generation by making the accounts more memorable and easier to pass down. You act like this shit happened yesterday instead of 3,000 years ago.

It's you that has based his apostasy on made up shit. My beliefs are backed up by google.

The ancient Jews generally believed that God (Yahweh) had a special covenant with them and was on their side, and their sacred narratives were indeed crafted to reflect this belief and reveal divine purpose in human history. This perspective evolved over time from a belief in a tribal warrior deity to ethical monotheism, where history itself was seen as the primary arena for divine revelation.

Belief in Divine Support and Covenant

• Chosen People, Special Covenant: The foundational belief was that the Israelites were "chosen" by God to uphold a unique covenant (treaty). This implied a special, protected relationship in exchange for their exclusive worship and obedience to divine law.
• Yahweh as Warrior: In early Israelite belief (known as Yahwism, which was initially monolatrous, meaning they worshiped only one god while potentially acknowledging the existence of others), Yahweh was often portrayed as a divine warrior who fought for Israel or with them in battles. Military successes were attributed to God's intervention, and the army was considered "Yahweh's army".
• Divine Justice: While God was "on their side," this support was conditional on their adherence to the covenant and ethical demands. When the Israelites suffered defeat, it was interpreted as divine punishment for their disobedience and worship of other gods, not a sign of God's weakness or absence. This allowed them to reconcile their belief in a powerful God with national misfortunes like the Babylonian Exile.

Narratives as "His-Story"
The ancient Jewish people viewed their national history as a narrative of God's interaction with them, where events were given theological meaning.

• The Exodus as Foundational Narrative: The Exodus from Egypt is the central example, portrayed not just as an escape from slavery but as a powerful act of divine redemption and a radical break from the values of the ancient Near East. The story is told to illustrate God's power and promise to make them His people.
• History Over Nature: Unlike neighboring cultures that focused on nature cycles in their myths, the Israelite narratives focused on linear history as the setting for God's purposes. The interpretation of historical events—victories, defeats, and exile—produced their theology.
• Crafted for Meaning: The biblical texts were compiled and edited over centuries to reflect this evolving religious understanding, especially during and after the Exilic period when the religion fully transitioned to uncompromising monotheism. The narratives served to reinforce their unique identity and their understanding of their place in the world under their single, righteous God.

In essence, the narratives were not modern historical accounts but divinely interpreted histories, designed to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

 

[Slyhunter]

Why don't you walk me through your evidence for genocide and I'll show you what that account was really about. Because clearly you have no clue how to read these passages.

flood, salt, sodomitees, etc.

 

[ding]

flood, salt, sodomitees, etc.

Jews believing God was on their side and accordingly crafting narratives of events to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

Because really... what's the alternative. Reading them literally? Because I won't buy that, but I will buy Jews believing God was on their side and accordingly crafting narratives of events to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

 

[BULLDOG]

I don't mind my beliefs being challenged. I'm just shocked that a former deacon was taught and taught others to read the bible literally without any thought to how dumb those interpretations must have sounded.

Didn't it ever occur to you that there was a much more logical interpretation? I mean surely as a deacon you had parishioners ask you about God condoning slavery and violence in the OT. What did you tell them that made sense?

I didn't tell them anything that made sense. My answer to them was the same answer I always received. Gods will is higher than ours. We are not capable of understand gods mind. Pray about it and the Holy Spirit will reveal all you need to know. When I finally accepted that those answers were profoundly dumb, I had to question the rest.

 

[ding]

I didn't tell them anything that made sense. My answer to them was the same answer I always received. Gods will is higher than ours. We are not capable of understand gods mind. Pray about it and the Holy Spirit will reveal all you need to know.

And you believed that too, right?

 

[BULLDOG]

He's dead. But he was world renowned so you'd be wrong.

Every argument against God that you have made is based upon a literal reading of the OT. How is that even possible if it's as you say that Christians only have a select group of passages they read literally?

For the billionth time, how do you decide what is to be taken literally as opposed to made up shit?

 

[ding]

For the billionth time, how do you decide what is to be taken literally as opposed to made up shit?

By separating the event from the lesson.

Jews believing God was on their side and accordingly crafting narratives of events to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

Because what is the alternative?

 

[BULLDOG]

Good Lord, you totally missed the point. Apparently you still don't believe that Jews believed God was on their side and crafted their narratives accordingly. That all of the passages you bring up were divinely interpreted histories, designed to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

No doubt Jews believed god was on their side. That' why they could make up such elaborate stories about him, and then convince themselves they were real.

 

[ding]

No doubt Jews believed god was on their side. That' why they could make up such elaborate stories about him, and then convince themselves they were real.

Or they were passing down historical events and crafting narratives to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel. So that the events would be easier to remember and pass down. Because that's how they passed down history 3,000 years ago. Orally.

 

[BULLDOG]

Or passing down information orally from generation to generation by making the accounts more memorable and easier to pass down. You act like this shit happened yesterday instead of 3,000 years ago.

It's you that has based his apostasy on made up shit. My beliefs are backed up by google.

The ancient Jews generally believed that God (Yahweh) had a special covenant with them and was on their side, and their sacred narratives were indeed crafted to reflect this belief and reveal divine purpose in human history. This perspective evolved over time from a belief in a tribal warrior deity to ethical monotheism, where history itself was seen as the primary arena for divine revelation.

Belief in Divine Support and Covenant

• Chosen People, Special Covenant: The foundational belief was that the Israelites were "chosen" by God to uphold a unique covenant (treaty). This implied a special, protected relationship in exchange for their exclusive worship and obedience to divine law.
• Yahweh as Warrior: In early Israelite belief (known as Yahwism, which was initially monolatrous, meaning they worshiped only one god while potentially acknowledging the existence of others), Yahweh was often portrayed as a divine warrior who fought for Israel or with them in battles. Military successes were attributed to God's intervention, and the army was considered "Yahweh's army".
• Divine Justice: While God was "on their side," this support was conditional on their adherence to the covenant and ethical demands. When the Israelites suffered defeat, it was interpreted as divine punishment for their disobedience and worship of other gods, not a sign of God's weakness or absence. This allowed them to reconcile their belief in a powerful God with national misfortunes like the Babylonian Exile.

Narratives as "His-Story"
The ancient Jewish people viewed their national history as a narrative of God's interaction with them, where events were given theological meaning.

• The Exodus as Foundational Narrative: The Exodus from Egypt is the central example, portrayed not just as an escape from slavery but as a powerful act of divine redemption and a radical break from the values of the ancient Near East. The story is told to illustrate God's power and promise to make them His people.
• History Over Nature: Unlike neighboring cultures that focused on nature cycles in their myths, the Israelite narratives focused on linear history as the setting for God's purposes. The interpretation of historical events—victories, defeats, and exile—produced their theology.
• Crafted for Meaning: The biblical texts were compiled and edited over centuries to reflect this evolving religious understanding, especially during and after the Exilic period when the religion fully transitioned to uncompromising monotheism. The narratives served to reinforce their unique identity and their understanding of their place in the world under their single, righteous God.

In essence, the narratives were not modern historical accounts but divinely interpreted histories, designed to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice, and the unique relationship between God and Israel.

Even grade school children understand that the more a story is told the more it changes. Didn't your teacher whisper something in the first student's ear and that student whispered to the next student, and on and on until it reached that last student? What that last student heard was nothing like what the teacher first said.

 

[BULLDOG]

And you believed that too, right?

I did for a long time. It was what I had been taught.