I believe religion was used to keep serfs working their asses off in the hope they would be rewarded in the next life as they weren't getting by with much reward in this one.
Zone1 Another question to ponder.
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Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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You seem to be thinking of 'children' as a child/kid. Has it occurred to you that it is speaking of grown children slandering his/her parents, perhaps trying to get an early inheritance? The Commandment of "Honor your father and mother" isn't simply directed at dependent, small children--but at adults who should be taking care of their parents in their older years.
Perhaps you have an account of a Jewish court sentencing a small child to death? A court sentencing more than one person to death in a seventy-year period was known as a bloody court.
I don't recall reading that. If so, it's been grossly misinterpreted.
In Revelations, Jews are referred to as “those from the Synogogue of Satan.”
Revelation 3:9 - Bible Gateway
Have you read the entire Old Testament? Or only the lines that sound horrific 3000 years later?
What is your understanding of God?
In Revelations, Jews are referred to as “those from the Synogogue of Satan.”
Revelation 3:9 - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com
9. I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who claim to be Jews but are not, for they are lying—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and recognize that I have loved you.
Although I can see how it could be misinterpreted - especially among people with an agenda... The passage makes a distinction between "True Jewish people" vs "Those claiming to be Jewish, but are not - because they are lying".
When the Book of Revelation was written, there were feuds between various Christian-Jewish sects. (At the time, they still mostly referred to each other as "Jews" and many still followed the teachings of the Prophets and the Law).
The primary rift was between Gnostic Christian Jews and Christian Jews. That line would have (most likely) been targeted at one of those groups - hence why they said, "Claiming to be Jews, but are not - they are lying". The feuds are well documented - to the point that many of the New Testament letters refer to them as well.
Whoever claimed to be a Jew, and isn’t? What non-Jew went to Synogogue and pretended to be Jewish?
To the contrary, Jews have claimed to be Christian so as to escape being murdered.
But regardless, that passage has been used to demonize Jews for 2000 years, with numerous Christians still harassing us with “warnings” how we’re going to hell.
During the first and second centuries AD the followers of Jesus still considered themselves Jewish and were regarded as Jews. The term "Christian" was used to determine a "Jewish sect" more so than a religion. The Roman Empire considered most of them cults.
In my opinion, the Jews who would have been considered "pretending to be Jews but are not - they are lying" are either the Christian Jews who adopted more Gnostic beliefs or the ones who began to refute Mosaic Law as a requirement for salvation.
The irony is the one group that line is likely not targeting are the actual traditional Jews of the time. And for those who used that line to demonize Jews - the joke is on them - they (more than likely) have been demonizing certain early "Christian" or "Christian Gnostic" sects, the entire time.
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So you are saying that Jesus was rebuking the Jews who were casting aside the Law, as given to Moses by Gd?
If so, none of what happened after the Romans crucified him makes sense. Jesus wanted Jews to continuing obeying the Law. So why did Paul try to get the Jews to abandon it and follow instead the decidedly non-Jewish belief and worship a mortal man?
My opinion is that Jesus NEVER intended for Jews to convert to the new Christianity by starting a new religion. It was all Paul (whose Hebrew name was Saul).
(Look him up, btw. He hated Jews and said some pretty nasty things.)
norwegen
Diamond Member
Revelation 3:9 really seems pro Jewish, attempting to proclaim Judaism's purity and heritage.
In fact, the Revelator directs the entire composition at his fellow Jews who have turned to Christ. He laments for them as they watch their community collapse at the hands of the Zealots. I believe he is accusing the Zealots of not being Jewish, as the Zealots have ignited the civil war among them.
In fact, the Revelator directs the entire composition at his fellow Jews who have turned to Christ. He laments for them as they watch their community collapse at the hands of the Zealots. I believe he is accusing the Zealots of not being Jewish, as the Zealots have ignited the civil war among them.
The Book of Revelation is not considered "Gospel" - meaning that it does not represent the direct words of Jesus while he ministered. It is considered a "prophetic vision" given to John. The Catholic Church and most Christian denominations believe it was written by John the Apostle.
The Book itself is written in code - the early Christians were persecuted by Rome, other Christian sects and other cults at the time - they could not have a book circulating that spoke against their adversaries.
In terms of specific meanings - the book could have been influenced or could have been a counter-influence to the events of the time.
Although Saul was Roman citizen, he was indeed a Jew. As a matter of fact, it was early Christian Jews that he persecuted. When he converted, he repented and became Paul.
Matthew 5:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill them."
What did Jesus mean by this? In my opinion, he gave his followers a new understanding of the teachings of the Prophets - and ways to understand God's ways through thought first.
If one could truly understand his teachings in thought first - then the physical actions would follow. "If one is clean in mind - then they should also be clean in body/flesh/spirit"
That said - it's far from easy so Jesus taught forgiveness of sins by repentance and penance. And you should not judge, unless you want to be judged - and if someone asks for forgiveness, then you forgive.
Matthew 18:
21. Then Peter came up to him and asked, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22. Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy times seven.
"Love God with all your heart, mind, body and soul - and Love your neighbor as yourself" - Jesus taught that once you master these two principles, all of the teachings of the Prophets and Law will naturally fall into place.
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What you are describing about Jesus’ teachings - that forgiveness of sins comes from repentance and penance - is a completely Jewish belief, and one still taught today. So too is the teaching that if someone asks your forgiveness, you must forgive.
So….he did not say that forgiveness of sins comes from “belief in him”. That concept came after his death. During Jesus’ life, he taught strictly Jewish concepts, and was in fact a great admirer of Hillel. It was from him that he got the Golden Rule.
Jesus was a traditional, observant Jew, and taught that Moses’ Law was binding.
It could be.
Or it could be written in code - giving a hidden but timeless message regarding spiritual warfare and division on one end - and the consequences of it. And on the other end, spiritual peace and unity - and the rewards associated with them.
I am unaware of Jesus' relationship with Hillel but the Golden Rule is from the book of Leviticus 19:
18. You shall not seek vengeance nor bear a grudge against the children of your people. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Jesus quoted Leviticus often, more than any other book of the Law.
Jesus studied Jewish Law and the teachings of the Prophets in a much more personal way - his understanding came not only from the written words but from within as well.
As far as specific laws and customs, Jesus followed many of them. On the other hand, he also streamlined certain laws or customs that were added by Jewish leaders over the course of 600+ years since the last Prophets spoke their words.
Jesus focused on the higher meanings and instructions from God - they came first and foremost. If something is truly from God, it will hold up against scrutiny and Jesus demonstrated that through his teachings, works and healings.
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norwegen
Diamond Member
It could be.
Or it could be written to mean exactly what it says. The 3.5-year tribulation, armies surrounding Jerusalem, Jewish believers fleeing the city, Rome's 5-month siege on the temple, and the various other events John of Patmos describes. Those things actually happened, and the Christian Jews were beside themselves.
Yep.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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Do you believe words have power? In Biblical times, words were associated with power.
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