THIS is why I say Israel is fascist

[aris2chat]

Mea culpa - I didn't research it. Ok, bad choice on my part

That doesn't make Pipes any less of a hater.

I think people are drawn to viewpoints that reflect their own fears and don't look critically at those views. It's a red flag - imo - when that view point promotes fear mongering, intolerance and hate.

And, I think many of the viewers realize that so much which has been posted here is to get the people to hate the Jews as much as they do. Meanwhile, regardless of what people think of Daniel Pipes, he has a good reputation as being an Islamic scholar, and he is basically only against radical Islam. I am sure that the summer he spent out here at Pepperdine College was an enjoyable one for his students, and they probably learned a lot.

Sally, why does it have to be "either/or"?

Either you hate Muslims/or you hate Jews.

Either it's ok to hate Muslims/or it's ok to hate Jews?

Don't you think, maybe - that hatred of any group, as a group is just plain wrong? And dangerous?

Pipes draws LITTLE distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.

That's the problem.

I think the majority would have strong negative feeling about radial Islam but not muslims as a whole. Being vocal in warnings of radical groups is not hate. We might have avoided losses if people had actually taken some warning more seriously. Moderate muslims might be afraid to speak out, but there are a few brave souls that do. They say much the same as Pipes, just in a softer tone of voice.

 

[Sally]

And, I think many of the viewers realize that so much which has been posted here is to get the people to hate the Jews as much as they do. Meanwhile, regardless of what people think of Daniel Pipes, he has a good reputation as being an Islamic scholar, and he is basically only against radical Islam. I am sure that the summer he spent out here at Pepperdine College was an enjoyable one for his students, and they probably learned a lot.

Sally, why does it have to be "either/or"?

Either you hate Muslims/or you hate Jews.

Either it's ok to hate Muslims/or it's ok to hate Jews?

Don't you think, maybe - that hatred of any group, as a group is just plain wrong? And dangerous?

Pipes draws LITTLE distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.

That's the problem.

I think the majority would have strong negative feeling about radial Islam but not muslims as a whole. Being vocal in warnings of radical groups is not hate. We might have avoided losses if people had actually taken some warning more seriously. Moderate muslims might be afraid to speak out, but there are a few brave souls that do. They say much the same as Pipes, just in a softer tone of voice.

And the sad part, Aris, is that so many of the moderate Muslim clergy who have spoken out have been gunned down. If these moderates seeking peace have been gunned down and you have the radical clergy inciting their members, what does that say for the future, not only in the Middle East but elsewhere.

 

[Coyote]

And, I think many of the viewers realize that so much which has been posted here is to get the people to hate the Jews as much as they do. Meanwhile, regardless of what people think of Daniel Pipes, he has a good reputation as being an Islamic scholar, and he is basically only against radical Islam. I am sure that the summer he spent out here at Pepperdine College was an enjoyable one for his students, and they probably learned a lot.

Sally, why does it have to be "either/or"?

Either you hate Muslims/or you hate Jews.

Either it's ok to hate Muslims/or it's ok to hate Jews?

Don't you think, maybe - that hatred of any group, as a group is just plain wrong? And dangerous?

Pipes draws LITTLE distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.

That's the problem.

Where you are so confused, Coyote, is that you think that everyone hates Muslims.

I don't.

The fact is that they hate the radical Muslims who want to kill not only the Infidels but also Muslims who are not of their sect.

Sally, they make NO distinction. They lump all Muslims into, if not radicals, then radicals-still-in-the-closet.

With all your hullabaloo about people hating the Muslims, even you wouldn't be safe amongst many of them no matter how much you try to stick up for them.

Umh...is this "radical Muslims' or, just Muslims in general?

Do you actually think that Muslims who want to live in peace really love those who are doing all the killings?

NO. They don't nor do they support them. Sally, can you show me where distinctions have been made? Most Muslims in these war torn areas are victims of militias and radicalized groups. But Sally - who is making a distinction? Not Daniel Pipes.

If you think that Pipes is trying to put down Islam, then there really is no use arguing with you. Your mind is made up.

Well Sally, do you think YOUR mind might be made up?

Evidently that Muslim editor who championed him thought differently from you. I think I will go with what the Muslim editor thought about Daniel Pipes, and not you, and I think most people would too.

Sally, what does it matter if a Muslim editor championed him? Seriously? You've heard of token figures before. If a lot of Muslims championed him - I'd reconsider my view.

But again - where has he made a strong distinction between radicals and non-radical Muslims that doesn't somehow DIMINISH the non-radicals?

No...I do not think much of him. Or Robert Spencer. And especially not Pamela Gellar.

 

[Sally]

Sally, why does it have to be "either/or"?

Either you hate Muslims/or you hate Jews.

Either it's ok to hate Muslims/or it's ok to hate Jews?

Don't you think, maybe - that hatred of any group, as a group is just plain wrong? And dangerous?

Pipes draws LITTLE distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.

That's the problem.

Where you are so confused, Coyote, is that you think that everyone hates Muslims.

I don't.



Sally, they make NO distinction. They lump all Muslims into, if not radicals, then radicals-still-in-the-closet.



Umh...is this "radical Muslims' or, just Muslims in general?



NO. They don't nor do they support them. Sally, can you show me where distinctions have been made? Most Muslims in these war torn areas are victims of militias and radicalized groups. But Sally - who is making a distinction? Not Daniel Pipes.

If you think that Pipes is trying to put down Islam, then there really is no use arguing with you. Your mind is made up.

Well Sally, do you think YOUR mind might be made up?

Evidently that Muslim editor who championed him thought differently from you. I think I will go with what the Muslim editor thought about Daniel Pipes, and not you, and I think most people would too.

Sally, what does it matter if a Muslim editor championed him? Seriously? You've heard of token figures before. If a lot of Muslims championed him - I'd reconsider my view.

But again - where has he made a strong distinction between radicals and non-radical Muslims that doesn't somehow DIMINISH the non-radicals?

No...I do not think much of him. Or Robert Spencer. And especially not Pamela Gellar.

Even with all the above, Coyote, it is very telling how you have nothing ever to say about what is happening in the rest of the Middle East where those Muslims are having a good old time murdering people in the name of their religion. After all there is a forum for you to speak about this, but you are so silent. Maybe it doesn't even faze you that they are busy murdering other innocent Muslims. Do you really think that in the scheme of things it actually matters who you care for, the same as it doesn't matter here who we care for, even though many of us don't think much of those who spread all that Arab propaganda.

 

[Coyote]

Where you are so confused, Coyote, is that you think that everyone hates Muslims.

I don't.



Sally, they make NO distinction. They lump all Muslims into, if not radicals, then radicals-still-in-the-closet.



Umh...is this "radical Muslims' or, just Muslims in general?



NO. They don't nor do they support them. Sally, can you show me where distinctions have been made? Most Muslims in these war torn areas are victims of militias and radicalized groups. But Sally - who is making a distinction? Not Daniel Pipes.



Well Sally, do you think YOUR mind might be made up?

Evidently that Muslim editor who championed him thought differently from you. I think I will go with what the Muslim editor thought about Daniel Pipes, and not you, and I think most people would too.

Sally, what does it matter if a Muslim editor championed him? Seriously? You've heard of token figures before. If a lot of Muslims championed him - I'd reconsider my view.

But again - where has he made a strong distinction between radicals and non-radical Muslims that doesn't somehow DIMINISH the non-radicals?

No...I do not think much of him. Or Robert Spencer. And especially not Pamela Gellar.

Even with all the above, Coyote, it is very telling how you have nothing ever to say about what is happening in the rest of the Middle East where those Muslims are having a good old time murdering people in the name of their religion. After all there is a forum for you to speak about this, but you are so silent. Maybe it doesn't even faze you that they are busy murdering other innocent Muslims. Do you really think that in the scheme of things it actually matters who you care for, the same as it doesn't matter here who we care for, even though many of us don't think much of those who spread all that Arab propaganda.

I think what matters is doing what's right and just and promotes our common humanity rather than dividing it.

Goodnight Sally

 

[Sally]

I don't.



Sally, they make NO distinction. They lump all Muslims into, if not radicals, then radicals-still-in-the-closet.



Umh...is this "radical Muslims' or, just Muslims in general?



NO. They don't nor do they support them. Sally, can you show me where distinctions have been made? Most Muslims in these war torn areas are victims of militias and radicalized groups. But Sally - who is making a distinction? Not Daniel Pipes.



Well Sally, do you think YOUR mind might be made up?



Sally, what does it matter if a Muslim editor championed him? Seriously? You've heard of token figures before. If a lot of Muslims championed him - I'd reconsider my view.

But again - where has he made a strong distinction between radicals and non-radical Muslims that doesn't somehow DIMINISH the non-radicals?

No...I do not think much of him. Or Robert Spencer. And especially not Pamela Gellar.

Even with all the above, Coyote, it is very telling how you have nothing ever to say about what is happening in the rest of the Middle East where those Muslims are having a good old time murdering people in the name of their religion. After all there is a forum for you to speak about this, but you are so silent. Maybe it doesn't even faze you that they are busy murdering other innocent Muslims. Do you really think that in the scheme of things it actually matters who you care for, the same as it doesn't matter here who we care for, even though many of us don't think much of those who spread all that Arab propaganda.

I think what matters is doing what's right and just and promotes our common humanity rather than dividing it.

Goodnight Sally

I think the important thing for humanity at this moment is that there should be tolerance for the religions and sects of others. When that is achieved, perhaps people can finally live in peace. Sleep tight.

 

[amity1844]

First,time I ever agreed with Sally.

 

[irosie91]

though for this thread---that will go over the heads of the non receptive.
Social trends are NOT CREATED by the majority----they are created
by the movers and shakers of society who are----actually always
a small minority. The small minority creates the SOCIETAL ETHOS.---
the rest of the people ---DO FOLLOW -----way in Medieval times---
when Genghis Khan galvanized a movement of empire building----
that cost the lives of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS----even then----
MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT MURDERERS.

Today----it is very likely that MOST of the people living
in Iraq ----if asked privately if they advocate genocide upon
chaldeans-----would say "NO"-----however-----watch it happen

 

[amity1844]

And I guess that is the first time I ever agreed with irosie.

As far as genocide, if anyone has an interest in undertaking genocide, they can usually find someone to collaborate on it with them. Like Israel did in Lebanon.

 

[Sally]

And I guess that is the first time I ever agreed with irosie.

As far as genocide, if anyone has an interest in undertaking genocide, they can usually find someone to collaborate on it with them. Like Israel did in Lebanon.

Looks like the terrorist lover never will place even a tiny bit of blame on her friends for what happened in Lebanon even though they were the ones who started up in the first place. Why don't we talk about what your friends have done -- the millions they have killed -- such as in places like the Sudan and Bangladesh? How about mention how King Hussein of Jordan, with the help of the Pakistani Army, knew how to handle your friends when they started up? I don't think anyone here is going to forget Black September.

 

[flacaltenn]

Amity:

History is history. And i have no qualms with Wiki versions of this event.. HOWEVER

YOUR TITLE suggests you have proof of Israel's "fascism" which seems to be produced at the very end of your OP where you state....

That’s right, folks, the Israeli military tricked a gang of Lebanese thugs by telling them that Palestinians had assassinated their leader, when in fact Israel knew the Palestinians had done no such thing, (blood libel), ..............

There is no evidence of this.. The BOMB that assasinated the Prez was planted by Syrian militants. That was KNOWN the day after it went off when the assassin was IN CUSTODY. And there is no evidence of statements to the Phlangists by Israel that the PLO or Palestinians were involved in the assassination..

That's a lot of work on your part --- JUST TO INVENT A REAL BLOOD LIBEL.. Without a shred of evidence... Dontchathink??
Still waiting on the proof that Israel is a Fascist nation.. Or was that just to draw attention to your hefty cut n' paste ???

 

[aris2chat]

And I guess that is the first time I ever agreed with irosie.

As far as genocide, if anyone has an interest in undertaking genocide, they can usually find someone to collaborate on it with them. Like Israel did in Lebanon.

Looks like the terrorist lover never will place even a tiny bit of blame on her friends for what happened in Lebanon even though they were the ones who started up in the first place. Why don't we talk about what your friends have done -- the millions they have killed -- such as in places like the Sudan and Bangladesh? How about mention how King Hussein of Jordan, with the help of the Pakistani Army, knew how to handle your friends when they started up? I don't think anyone here is going to forget Black September.

As angry as Sharon was, not just from being woken up and rushed back to Beirut, but when he found out about the killing in some areas, not just rounding up the remaining PLO, He was ranting about "chocolate soldiers" and the illumination was so they could see and not just fire or strike out at shadows arbitrarily. Most of the deaths were around the gaza hospital there the PLO had artillery on the roof and were bunkered down.
Israelis could not enter the camps, nor could the Syrians or Lebanese military/police forces. Israelis were waiting the stadium for the PLO flushed out, so they could be processed to be removed from Lebanon. Arafat was supposed to have take all his fighters out with him, but around 2000 had remained.

 

[irosie91]

And I guess that is the first time I ever agreed with irosie.

As far as genocide, if anyone has an interest in undertaking genocide, they can usually find someone to collaborate on it with them. Like Israel did in Lebanon.

Looks like the terrorist lover never will place even a tiny bit of blame on her friends for what happened in Lebanon even though they were the ones who started up in the first place. Why don't we talk about what your friends have done -- the millions they have killed -- such as in places like the Sudan and Bangladesh? How about mention how King Hussein of Jordan, with the help of the Pakistani Army, knew how to handle your friends when they started up? I don't think anyone here is going to forget Black September.

As angry as Sharon was, not just from being woken up and rushed back to Beirut, but when he found out about the killing in some areas, not just rounding up the remaining PLO, He was ranting about "chocolate soldiers" and the illumination was so they could see and not just fire or strike out at shadows arbitrarily. Most of the deaths were around the gaza hospital there the PLO had artillery on the roof and were bunkered down.
Israelis could not enter the camps, nor could the Syrians or Lebanese military/police forces. Israelis were waiting the stadium for the PLO flushed out, so they could be processed to be removed from Lebanon. Arafat was supposed to have take all his fighters out with him, but around 2000 had remained.

So how does that compute as "genocide" for anyone? As for Sharon----if he was
a US general and ---in the course of a war on enemy soil-----decided to place
US troops BETWEEN two warring factions---on that enemy soil---both armed and fighting---
he would have probably ended up at Leavenwirth. Artillery on the roof of a hospital is
a war crime------were PLO people tried for that crime? Is it too late?

 

[amity1844]

There is no evidence of this.. The BOMB that assasinated the Prez was planted by Syrian militants. That was KNOWN the day after it went off when the assassin was IN CUSTODY. And there is no evidence of statements to the Phlangists by Israel that the PLO or Palestinians were involved in the assassination..

That's a lot of work on your part --- JUST TO INVENT A REAL BLOOD LIBEL.. Without a shred of evidence... Dontchathink??
Still waiting on the proof that Israel is a Fascist nation.. Or was that just to draw attention to your hefty cut n' paste ???

It was attested to by various witnesses that the Israeli commaqnder told the Phalange that they had intelligence that Palestinians had killed Germayel. The source is in the wikipedia article I linked to unless someone has removed them within the last day or two.

 

[flacaltenn]

There is no evidence of this.. The BOMB that assasinated the Prez was planted by Syrian militants. That was KNOWN the day after it went off when the assassin was IN CUSTODY. And there is no evidence of statements to the Phlangists by Israel that the PLO or Palestinians were involved in the assassination..

That's a lot of work on your part --- JUST TO INVENT A REAL BLOOD LIBEL.. Without a shred of evidence... Dontchathink??
Still waiting on the proof that Israel is a Fascist nation.. Or was that just to draw attention to your hefty cut n' paste ???

It was attested to by various witnesses that the Israeli commaqnder told the Phalange that they had intelligence that Palestinians had killed Germayel. The source is in the wikipedia article I linked to unless someone has removed them within the last day or two.

Probably because it never happened. It's part of the "legend" that implicates Israel in what happened inside those camps. Phlange only needed to read the newspaper to learn who was responsible for that assassination.. Didn't NEED "Israeli Intelligience", their own GOVT knew it was a syrian militant.. THEY had the cretin in custody at the time with an ADMISSION that he planted the bomb.

Which makes YOU culpable of repeating a REAL honest to goodness "blood libel".. Instead of a fake one..

 

[aris2chat]

Amity:

History is history. And i have no qualms with Wiki versions of this event.. HOWEVER

YOUR TITLE suggests you have proof of Israel's "fascism" which seems to be produced at the very end of your OP where you state....

That’s right, folks, the Israeli military tricked a gang of Lebanese thugs by telling them that Palestinians had assassinated their leader, when in fact Israel knew the Palestinians had done no such thing, (blood libel), ..............

There is no evidence of this.. The BOMB that assasinated the Prez was planted by Syrian militants. That was KNOWN the day after it went off when the assassin was IN CUSTODY. And there is no evidence of statements to the Phlangists by Israel that the PLO or Palestinians were involved in the assassination..

That's a lot of work on your part --- JUST TO INVENT A REAL BLOOD LIBEL.. Without a shred of evidence... Dontchathink??
Still waiting on the proof that Israel is a Fascist nation.. Or was that just to draw attention to your hefty cut n' paste ???

Lebanese did not need to be told the palestinians had killed Bashir. They had a long history of doing harm to the Gemayels. Bashir had been kidnapped and tortured as a youth. The civil war was triggered because the palestinians had tried to kill Pierre.
It was a logical assumption, despite the speeches of peace and rebuilding together, since Arafat had been forced to leave.
It turned out to have been a Syria plot planned and organized by Hardane, Hobeika and carried out by Shartouni. Hobeika has also been responsible for a previous assassination attempt that took the life of Bashir's daughter Maya in a car bombing. Hardan was also the one to order Hobeika to "total exterminate"
Sharon did not have a magic globe to telling what would happen. The whole operation was suggested by Amin and planned during Bashir's funeral in a rush, it was not mapped out in detail, nor did Sharon given any orders directly to the men that Hobeika selected.
When Bashir became president, Hobeika had hoped to take Bashir's position in the party, but he was to be skipped over.
Hobeika also assisted in the escape of Shartouni and transport to Syria.

 

[irosie91]

There is no evidence of this.. The BOMB that assasinated the Prez was planted by Syrian militants. That was KNOWN the day after it went off when the assassin was IN CUSTODY. And there is no evidence of statements to the Phlangists by Israel that the PLO or Palestinians were involved in the assassination..

That's a lot of work on your part --- JUST TO INVENT A REAL BLOOD LIBEL.. Without a shred of evidence... Dontchathink??
Still waiting on the proof that Israel is a Fascist nation.. Or was that just to draw attention to your hefty cut n' paste ???

It was attested to by various witnesses that the Israeli commaqnder told the Phalange that they had intelligence that Palestinians had killed Germayel. The source is in the wikipedia article I linked to unless someone has removed them within the last day or two.

"various witnesses'" attested? wikki??

 

[amity1844]

1) Go to Wikipedia.
2) Enter search term "Sabra and Shatila."
3) Scroll down.
4) Find place where this fact is discussed.
5) Every statement in Wikipedia has to have one good source. Click on the little number after the statement to see source that supports it. You can probably get this info from navigating the original post if you want.

 

[flacaltenn]

Even the assassin was not executed (IIRC), but merely imprisoned.. This massacre occurred because Israel should never have trusted a blood thirsty foreign militia to have discipline and restraint. It was a miscalculation and Sharon pretty much admitted so... That is no PROOF of a innate Fascist govt being a feature of the state of Israel..

 

[flacaltenn]

1) Go to Wikipedia.
2) Enter search term "Sabra and Shatila."
3) Scroll down.
4) Find place where this fact is discussed.
5) Every statement in Wikipedia has to have one good source. Click on the little number after the statement to see source that supports it. You can probably get this info from navigating the original post if you want.

Already did that. It's a BOOK.. I'm not reading it just to find out that "unidentified witnesses" said such a thing. That's not how history gets written... Furthermore -- it makes no sense.

1) Israel did not have to motivate the Phalangist militia to be hostile to Palestinians..
2) The group responsible already had blood thirsty leadership.
3) The Phalangist govt had the perp in CUSTODY with an ADMISSION on the day of the raid. No lying was neccessary -- nor would it be effective..

I've just admitted there was Israeli culpability on this matter. But not the story that you have concocted..