THIS is why I say Israel is fascist

[amity1844]

Fair enough, you're right, sorry. I can't do anything now, getting ready for my week, and I can't work on it tomorrow either.

Is the only issue in question that Israel deliberately misled the Phalange by telling them the Palestinians killed Gemayel?
Other than that the factuality is not disputed by you?

I'll have a source by Friday or post a retraction.

 

[amity1844]

Even the assassin was not executed (IIRC), but merely imprisoned.. This massacre occurred because Israel should never have trusted a blood thirsty foreign militia to have discipline and restraint. It was a miscalculation and Sharon pretty much admitted so... That is no PROOF of a innate Fascist govt being a feature of the state of Israel..

I'd say this was pretty fascist, and if anything Israel's genocidal intent is even clearer today. And I think fascism is a judgment call. Looks like a democracy to Israeli Jews, but Israel's war machinery presents a fascist face to the Palestinians, invariably.

I don't think Israel trusted the Kataeb, they USED the Kataeb. Israel was in charge in this event. Israel hatched the plan, gave the orders, and coordinated the events from a nearby tower. If things WEREN'T happening according to plan then Israel had 1-1/2 days' worth of opportunity to stop it.

The only thing I have never been able to figure out is WHY.

 

[aris2chat]

1) Go to Wikipedia.
2) Enter search term "Sabra and Shatila."
3) Scroll down.
4) Find place where this fact is discussed.
5) Every statement in Wikipedia has to have one good source. Click on the little number after the statement to see source that supports it. You can probably get this info from navigating the original post if you want.

Already did that. It's a BOOK.. I'm not reading it just to find out that "unidentified witnesses" said such a thing. That's not how history gets written... Furthermore -- it makes no sense.

1) Israel did not have to motivate the Phalangist militia to be hostile to Palestinians..
2) The group responsible already had blood thirsty leadership.
3) The Phalangist govt had the perp in CUSTODY with an ADMISSION on the day of the raid. No lying was neccessary -- nor would it be effective..

I've just admitted there was Israeli culpability on this matter. But not the story that you have concocted..

There was a blood lust. After the massacres by the palestinians and then seeing Arafat and most of the PLO sail away from their crimes. Hobeika hand picked men he knew had lost family in Damour or one of the other massacres.
Sharon did not know how or why the men were pick and he never gave them any direct orders. The fighters were to be handed over to the Israelis at the stadium.
Hobeika picked his five commanders and then the rest of the men in less than a day.
Everything really was put together on the fly, and passions were still magnified after the removal of bodies from the bombing and the funeral of Bashir.
It was one of those "perfect storms" situation where everything was happening all at once and no one could fully process.
For me it was years before I would listen to any news about Lebanon or the middle east and longer before I would talk out it. Fortunately I had other distractions to devote my attentions on.

 

[Indeependent]

Even the assassin was not executed (IIRC), but merely imprisoned.. This massacre occurred because Israel should never have trusted a blood thirsty foreign militia to have discipline and restraint. It was a miscalculation and Sharon pretty much admitted so... That is no PROOF of a innate Fascist govt being a feature of the state of Israel..

I'd say this was pretty fascist, and if anything Israel's genocidal intent is even clearer today. And I think fascism is a judgment call. Looks like a democracy to Israeli Jews, but Israel's war machinery presents a fascist face to the Palestinians, invariably.

I don't think Israel trusted the Kataeb, they USED the Kataeb. Israel was in charge in this event. Israel hatched the plan, gave the orders, and coordinated the events from a nearby tower. If things WEREN'T happening according to plan then Israel had 1-1/2 days' worth of opportunity to stop it.

The only thing I have never been able to figure out is WHY.

A genius such as yourself can't figure out WHY a fiction in your mind was perpetrated?

 

[amity1844]

I did find out that the source was apparently Hobeika himself, Bachir Gemayel's bodyguard and commander of the Kataeb forces that carried out the killing.

When he was accused of war crimes, he blamed Israel and promised to testify to the "whole story." Then he was assasinated. By whom?

Just before his death, Hobeika publicly declared his intention to testify against Sharon about his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in the Belgian court. Josy Dubié, a Belgian senator, was quoted as saying that Hobeika had told him several days before his death that he had "revelations" to disclose about the massacres and felt "threatened". When Dubié had asked him why he did not reveal all the facts he knew immediately, Hobeika is reported to have said: "I am saving them for the trial". At a news conference, he said, "I am very interested that the [Belgium] trial starts because my innocence is a core issue."[3]

Will get more later.

 

[amity1844]

Aris, right, Jesus, and the Palestinians were bummed about Karantina, too.
Look at that list of massacres and tell me who committed most of them. The Phalange.

Israelis surrounded the camps and wouldn't let people escape. And you want to blame someone else? At least one of the Israeli soldiers on Breaking the Silence talks about Sabra and Shatila. This one is entirely Israel's baby.

 

[irosie91]

1) Go to Wikipedia.
2) Enter search term "Sabra and Shatila."
3) Scroll down.
4) Find place where this fact is discussed.
5) Every statement in Wikipedia has to have one good source. Click on the little number after the statement to see source that supports it. You can probably get this info from navigating the original post if you want.

Already did that. It's a BOOK.. I'm not reading it just to find out that "unidentified witnesses" said such a thing. That's not how history gets written... Furthermore -- it makes no sense.

1) Israel did not have to motivate the Phalangist militia to be hostile to Palestinians..
2) The group responsible already had blood thirsty leadership.
3) The Phalangist govt had the perp in CUSTODY with an ADMISSION on the day of the raid. No lying was neccessary -- nor would it be effective..

I've just admitted there was Israeli culpability on this matter. But not the story that you have concocted..

There was a blood lust. After the massacres by the palestinians and then seeing Arafat and most of the PLO sail away from their crimes. Hobeika hand picked men he knew had lost family in Damour or one of the other massacres.
Sharon did not know how or why the men were pick and he never gave them any direct orders. The fighters were to be handed over to the Israelis at the stadium.
Hobeika picked his five commanders and then the rest of the men in less than a day.
Everything really was put together on the fly, and passions were still magnified after the removal of bodies from the bombing and the funeral of Bashir.


puhleeeeeze you missed it------Aenmity has already told you that the
Palestinians in Lebanon never did anything bad

 

[amity1844]

I got at least one source:

According to Linda Malone of the Jerusalem Fund, Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan[27] met with Phalangist militia units and invited them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, claiming that the PLO was responsible for Gemayel's assassination.[28] The meeting concluded at 3:00 pm 16 September.[25]

Citation 28 is Robert Fisk, The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East, page 484, 488-489.

 

[flacaltenn]

I did find out that the source was apparently Hobeika himself, Bachir Gemayel's bodyguard and commander of the Kataeb forces that carried out the killing.

When he was accused of war crimes, he blamed Israel and promised to testify to the "whole story." Then he was assasinated. By whom?

Just before his death, Hobeika publicly declared his intention to testify against Sharon about his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in the Belgian court. Josy Dubié, a Belgian senator, was quoted as saying that Hobeika had told him several days before his death that he had "revelations" to disclose about the massacres and felt "threatened". When Dubié had asked him why he did not reveal all the facts he knew immediately, Hobeika is reported to have said: "I am saving them for the trial". At a news conference, he said, "I am very interested that the [Belgium] trial starts because my innocence is a core issue."[3]

Will get more later.

If "the rest" of your proof that Israel is a fascist nation, relies on an uncited quotation from the ACTUAL butcher of those camps, I am not interested. Thats the problem with exaggerated conspiracy theories. They all lead down the rabbit hole...

 

[amity1844]

puhleeeeeze you missed it------Aenmity has already told you that the
Palestinians in Lebanon never did anything bad

Well, I certainly never said THAT.

But truthfully they were about the best of the lot.

And anyway, I think we're veering toward that collective punishment kneejerk mentality again. The people who participated in Damour were thousands of miles away. What was left in Sabra and Shatila were the non-combatants, families, old people. No fedayeen left at all.

 

[flacaltenn]

I got at least one source:

According to Linda Malone of the Jerusalem Fund, Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan[27] met with Phalangist militia units and invited them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, claiming that the PLO was responsible for Gemayel's assassination.[28] The meeting concluded at 3:00 pm 16 September.[25]

Citation 28 is Robert Fisk, The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East, page 484, 488-489.

I just told you the source was a book. What you provided is an uncited allegation that the book confirms this. And if I recall, this is NOT the exact wording of the Wiki page I think you are citing.

 

[amity1844]

Will get more later.

If "the rest" of your proof that Israel is a fascist nation, relies on an uncited quotation from the ACTUAL butcher of those camps, I am not interested. Thats the problem with exaggerated conspiracy theories. They all lead down the rabbit hole...

No, now I've got two sources. I'll grant you Hobeika was trying to get his butt out of a tight spot. It is also very suspicious for Israeli involvement in HIS assassination, coming as it did immediately before his testimony at the war crimes trial where he promised to "out" Eitan and Sharon.

So now do we have everything sourced? Have I proven insofar as is possible that Israel lied to Hobeika to get him and his men fired up for the slaughter?
Yes, you said you agreed with everything else. And everything else is pretty uncontestable.

I just HATE conspiracy theories. Utterly ridiculous most of them.

Let me say a word about the "fascist" issue. Coyote read us the dictionary definition. If as you learn more about Israel you think the shoe fits...

As I said, Israelis see a very benign face of the Israeli military, so they can't accept the "fascist" label.
I have seen Israel's other face, the face it presents to the Palestinians, and I say Israel IS fascist ... according to the definition provided.

 

[irosie91]

puhleeeeeze you missed it------Aenmity has already told you that the
Palestinians in Lebanon never did anything bad

Well, I certainly never said THAT.

But truthfully they were about the best of the lot.

And anyway, I think we're veering toward that collective punishment kneejerk mentality again. The people who participated in Damour were thousands of miles away. What was left was the non-combatants, families, old people. No fedayeen left at all.

there is nothing either truthful or reasonable about anything you write-----on the one hand
you support slitting the throats of infants------and then complain "why blame an armed camp full
of Palestinians for the fact that Palestinians ripped maronite chidren from the arms of their
parents and raped and mutilated them to death------since the ones in the armed camp
were probably not THE SAME Palestinians" btw----that old sick unarmed thing has been
debunked. moreover ---what does anything about all this have to do with
"FASCISM" ??? war is hell-----civil war is also hell as to Christians and
muslims in Lebanon-----when I was a kid I thought Lebanon was a Christian country
because ALL the Lebanese I knew were Christians (1950s) It was well into the
60s that I found out that the Christians were in the USA because they were running
away from the muslims -----1967 (I was still a teen-----the Lebanese green grocer
called out to me----"don't blame me-----they hate me too" )) as to Damour----not
the sole incident in the saga involving the muslim vs Christian rift in Lebanon
(go right ahead and tell -----"what rift"??)

 

[Roudy]

And I guess that is the first time I ever agreed with irosie.

As far as genocide, if anyone has an interest in undertaking genocide, they can usually find someone to collaborate on it with them. Like Israel did in Lebanon.

Lebanon, where Muslim Palestinians committed genocide upon the Christians, murdering over 150,000? You are just a bald faced liar for Islamofacists. You might THINK you're fooling people with your garbage, but you really aren't.

 

[flacaltenn]

Will get more later.

If "the rest" of your proof that Israel is a fascist nation, relies on an uncited quotation from the ACTUAL butcher of those camps, I am not interested. Thats the problem with exaggerated conspiracy theories. They all lead down the rabbit hole...

No, now I've got two sources. I'll grant you Hobeika was trying to get his butt out of a tight spot. It is also very suspicious for Israeli involvement in HIS assassination.

So now do we have everything sourced?

Yes, you said you agreed with everything else. And everything else is pretty uncontestable.

I just HATE conspiracy theories. Utterly ridiculous most of them.

You havent even begun to justify your title and conclusions. And those are not sources until they are ACTUALLY linked and we know who said what. If the butcher is one of your sources, I would be embarrassed to admit that.

 

[Roudy]

Will get more later.

If "the rest" of your proof that Israel is a fascist nation, relies on an uncited quotation from the ACTUAL butcher of those camps, I am not interested. Thats the problem with exaggerated conspiracy theories. They all lead down the rabbit hole...

No, now I've got two sources. I'll grant you Hobeika was trying to get his butt out of a tight spot. It is also very suspicious for Israeli involvement in HIS assassination, coming as it did immediately before his testimony at the war crimes trial where he promised to "out" Eitan and Sharon.

So now do we have everything sourced? Have I proven insofar as is possible that Israel lied to Hobeika to get him and his men fired up for the slaughter?
Yes, you said you agreed with everything else. And everything else is pretty uncontestable.

I just HATE conspiracy theories. Utterly ridiculous most of them.

Let me say a word about the "fascist" issue. Coyote read us the dictionary definition. If as you learn more about Israel you think the shoe fits...

As I said, Israelis see a very benign face of the Israeli military, so they can't accept the "fascist" label.
I have seen Israel's other face, the face it presents to the Palestinians, and I say Israel IS fascist ... according to the definition provided.

Ńo you just got caught again for fraudulent citing. LOL

 

[amity1844]

Too late, you already said you agreed with everything else.
And really, people, this has been a matter of public record for 30+ years. None of this is new or uncontested by history at this point.

If you want to read my Jerusalem Fund lady's testimony, you will have to buy that book. Its copyrighted, so its not online. I hope you're not one of the people on here who refuse to read books?
I have well justified my title: I say its fascist because it meets the dictionary definition of fascism. You can say whatever you want. You see the fun side of Israel. The Palestinians don't.

And my conclusions follow logically from proven premises. No demurral will be forthcoming.

 

[flacaltenn]

I did find out that the source was apparently Hobeika himself, Bachir Gemayel's bodyguard and commander of the Kataeb forces that carried out the killing.

When he was accused of war crimes, he blamed Israel and promised to testify to the "whole story." Then he was assasinated. By whom?

Just before his death, Hobeika publicly declared his intention to testify against Sharon about his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in the Belgian court. Josy Dubié, a Belgian senator, was quoted as saying that Hobeika had told him several days before his death that he had "revelations" to disclose about the massacres and felt "threatened". When Dubié had asked him why he did not reveal all the facts he knew immediately, Hobeika is reported to have said: "I am saving them for the trial". At a news conference, he said, "I am very interested that the [Belgium] trial starts because my innocence is a core issue."[3]

Will get more later.

This is worthless to prove your premise that Israel lied about anything to the militias. Does not mention even what the "revelations" might have been. And why are you not CITING where in the Wiki you got this?

 

[amity1844]

Ńo you just got caught again for fraudulent citing. LOL

Check the book, dingleball. It seems like a sound citation to me.

And when was the FIRST TIME I allegedly "got caught for fraudulently citing." I don't remember that ever happening.

I'll bet I can find other sources as well.

Now remember the point is that these were unarmed civilians who had not participated in anything. And they were massacred at Israel's instigation.

 

[amity1844]

I've just admitted there was Israeli culpability on this matter. But not the story that you have concocted..

The fighters were to be handed over to the Israelis at the stadium.

I just saw this ... things get buried so quickly. What fighters did you mean, Aris?