Zone1 There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Faith

[hadit]

We are not saved by our works, but works are required before Jesus will save us with his grace.

You have it backwards, are in essence saying we have to be good enough for Christ to save us from our sin. That is not true, He MAKES us righteous through His sacrifice.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Good works are taught all through the New Testament. Here is an example of some of them:


2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Timothy 5:10
Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

1 Timothy 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10
But (which becometh women professing godliness ) with good works.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Be careful not to just copy and paste a bunch of verses that talk about good works. Check to see who is doing the work here.

Galatians 4:18
But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Colossians 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Mark 14:7
For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

We do good works because we want to obey Him and He commands us to do them. We do not have to do anything for Christ to redeem us, completely and totally, so no one can boast that they are more righteous than any other.

 

[ding]

I make the distinction when I see people claiming works will purify them or have to be added to Christ's sacrifice to complete salvation, etc. Have you not read where I explicitly went over why we do works and discipline ourselves? I thought I was quite clear. We CAN'T get God's good grace through works, we do them because we love Him intensely and know they please Him.

As near as I can tell, you are the only one making that claim. I've yet to hear one single Catholic make that claim.

Catholics believe that God's grace is freely given and cannot be earned. That all have been redeemed. That salvation is the acceptance of that gift. You keep confusing the acceptance of that gift with earning that gift.

Do Catholics believe salvation can be earned?

Catholics believe salvation is a free gift from God, not earned by good works, but it requires active participation and cooperation with God's grace through faith, sacraments, and living a life of love and obedience (good works) that transforms the soul, as faith without works is considered "dead" and can be lost through serious sin. It's a journey of justification (initial gift) and sanctification (ongoing growth in holiness) empowered by God's grace, not something humans achieve alone.
Key Catholic Teachings on Salvation:

• Grace is Primary: Salvation begins with God's unmerited grace, a free gift accepted through faith in Jesus Christ, usually initiated at baptism.
• Faith and Works are Linked: While not earned by works, faith must be living and active, leading to good works (charity, obedience, love) that express sincere conversion and grow holiness.
• Cooperation with God: Humans must "work out" their salvation (Philippians 2:12) by responding to God's grace and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them, but this is God empowering them, not human effort alone.
• Can Be Lost: Salvation isn't a one-time guarantee; it can be rejected or lost through mortal (serious) sin, requiring repentance, confession, and a return to God's grace.
• Transformation, Not Just Covering: Grace transforms the soul to become holy, unlike some views where faith merely "covers" sin; Catholics believe in being made truly righteous in God's sight.

In essence, salvation is a divine gift that empowers believers to live a transformed life, demonstrating their faith and growing in holiness, which is necessary for eternal life, but not the cause of salvation itself.

 

[onefour1]

You have it backwards, are in essence saying we have to be good enough for Christ to save us from our sin. That is not true, He MAKES us righteous through His sacrifice.

The scriptures are clear:
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus knows that in order to maintain a heavenly kingdom, the people of that kingdom need to be willing to live a celestial law of goodness. Otherwise it wouldn't be a kingdom of heaven but if disobedient people who ignore the teachings of Christ were to inhabit the kingdom it would be a kingdom of hell.

Be careful not to just copy and paste a bunch of verses that talk about good works. Check to see who is doing the work here.

The verses quoted all speak of those who desire to follow Jesus and that they should engage in good works.

We do good works because we want to obey Him and He commands us to do them. We do not have to do anything for Christ to redeem us, completely and totally, so no one can boast that they are more righteous than any other.

The works do not save us but Jesus in no uncertain terms has taught that if we wish to be saved in his kingdom of heaven, we need to do the will of our Father in Heaven. It is the will of God that we do good works:

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[The Irish Ram]

tangible evidence

Wouldn't that be Jesus, the Messiah?

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin.

Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrew 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrew 7:18-19 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

There are over 600 laws that were given to the Jews. If you put yourself under the Law then you are obligated to keep them all, not just a few.

James 2:10 Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 4:15 For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

 

[Meriweather]

A theology that claims you have to or even can do works to add something to Christ's sacrifice is a works-based theology. Purification/purgatory does exactly that because it says in essence that Christ's sacrifice is not enough, that you have to either suffer after death or do works to attain a state acceptable to God.

Once more...I have never heard of such theology. Unless.... Are you saying that your church teaches that you are not to pick up your cross and follow Christ, nor run the race (like Paul) because that is "adding something to Christ's sacrifice" and "is a works based theology"? Perhaps you are not allowed to pray, "Here I am, Lord--send me," as that is an attempt to add something to Christ's sacrifice and is a works based theology?

What exactly do you mean? Or, are you saying you are pure enough--right now--to abide in God's presence for eternity? (Remember, it is said sin cannot abide with God, as it can only remain briefly in God's presence.)

 

[Ace Nova]

The Catholic Church (no longer extant in the Vatican) has taught this (extra ecclessiam nulla salus [Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation]) for 20+ centuries.

A priest named Father Feeney persisted in teaching this dogma in the 40s and 50s.

Vatican staff defied him and threatened him, finally "excommunicating him" but it was not a real excommunication for a plethora of reasons...

See this site for details

Modernists use Anti-Feeney Pseudo-Holy Office Letter to ‘justify’ Francis’ latest heresy

MHFM: It’s interesting that certain modernist defenders of the Whore of Babylon (i.e. the Vatican II Sect) are citing the pseudo-Holy Office letter, called Suprema Haec Sacra (dated Aug. 8, 1949), written against Fr. Feeney, [...]

vaticancatholic.com

Another interesting (and at times accidentally comical-at least to me)
video on heresy

Christian Wagner’s Lies, Contradictions & Errors Exposed

This video contains many important quotes and facts that are relevant to many aspects of the current controversies. 0:00 Intro0:54 Wagner Falsifies Theological History On Loss Of Office2:12 Wagner’s Lies About Florence, Torquemada & Salvation3:31 He Says You Must Interpret Councils According To...

endtimes.video

Do you believe this to be true?

I went to 14 years of Catholic School and have studied the Bible for decades and this is the first I'm hearing it stated as Catholic dogma. Rarely, if ever, did the dozens of priests, nuns, brothers, deacons stress this teaching over the past 4 decades.

We were taught that we, as Catholics, can obtain salvation by God, through the teachings, Acts and sacrifices of Jesus Christ but we were never asked to "judge" other Christian denominations or religions.

Did Pope John Paul II release statements on it?

Did Pope Benedict?

Did Pope Francis?

Did Pope Leo?

 

[TruthSeeker112125]

The scriptures are clear:
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus knows that in order to maintain a heavenly kingdom, the people of that kingdom need to be willing to live a celestial law of goodness. Otherwise it wouldn't be a kingdom of heaven but if disobedient people who ignore the teachings of Christ were to inhabit the kingdom it would be a kingdom of hell.

The verses quoted all speak of those who desire to follow Jesus and that they should engage in good works.

The works do not save us but Jesus in no uncertain terms has taught that if we wish to be saved in his kingdom of heaven, we need to do the will of our Father in Heaven. It is the will of God that we do good works:

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 22:34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together.
Mat 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

 

[hadit]

Once more...I have never heard of such theology.

Were you taught that you have to apply effort to achieve a state acceptable to God instead of simply accepting what He's already done and rejoicing in being made righteous? When was the last time you simply basked in God's presence, knowing you are completely and totally righteous in His eyes because of Christ's sacrifice? Do you instead worry like Martha that things must be done, you must be active, and you cannot sit at His feet like Mary did? Both sisters were doing good, but Mary did better by setting aside duty and action in favor of relationship. IOW, do you feel that you need to cleanse and purify yourself through works before you can enjoy God's presence?

Unless.... Are you saying that your church teaches that you are not to pick up your cross and follow Christ, nor run the race (like Paul) because that is "adding something to Christ's sacrifice" and "is a works based theology"? Perhaps you are not allowed to pray, "Here I am, Lord--send me," as that is an attempt to add something to Christ's sacrifice and is a works based theology?

That's ludicrous, as I've explained multiple times. Do better. See below for yet another explanation.

What exactly do you mean? Or, are you saying you are pure enough--right now--to abide in God's presence for eternity? (Remember, it is said sin cannot abide with God, as it can only remain briefly in God's presence.)

I fully trust God to reveal to me any sin that I need to address. The prayer that God answers every single time and very quickly is, "Lord, reveal any wickedness in me". Every time I pray that prayer, He is swift to respond. Of course, I also apply common sense. If I know something is sin to me, I'd better avoid it.

Okay, have I not explained this so many times already? But, since you are at least playing at being obtuse, I'll go over it yet again.

1. Christ did everything necessary to save me. "It is finished" means just that, it's done and over with, the debt is paid. All I need to do is accept it. As I walk into God's courtroom, guilty and deserving of condemnation, Christ hands me a pardon and says, "Don't worry about it, you're guilty but I've already paid your penalty". That means I stand before God rightly accused, completely guilty, but forgiven and cleansed. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". IOW, I can't cleanse myself, He has to do it, and not only that, but He WILL do it, according to that Scripture. Now, if I harbor that sin in my heart and refuse to acknowledge it after He reveals it to me, that's another ballgame.
2. Christ gave us commands to follow, but we do not follow them like we did the Law. The Law was punitive while grace is not. We follow His commands because we love Him, and we love Him because He puts His Spirit within us and our hearts turn to Him. We then naturally want to tell others about the Gospel because it is God's desire that all come to Him, and what pleases Him also pleases us. How can I live selfishly with my wife if I truly love her? I can't, I look to see what actions please her and do them because I know they make her happy, and that makes ME happy.
3. Faith is not a passive thing. "Yeah, sure, I believe in God". So what, demons also believe. No, faith requires action. Because I put my faith in Him and He put His Spirit in me, I am compelled to act. How can I claim to have faith without showing it in the way I live my life? The important point is that the actions do not cause salvation, they are the result of salvation. You can live the "Godliest", nicest, most outwardly attractive life of anyone on the face of the earth and still stand before God condemned.
4. I will stand before God covered by the blood of Christ and my sin will be no more. I can never, under my own power, completely cleanse myself and there is no point in giving me punishment in purgatory after I die in the vain hope that I will somehow accomplish that goal, even with the prayers of those still on the earth hoping to hurry me through but having absolutely no idea if they're accomplishing anything or if I've already purified myself and I'm out of there.

Christ did everything necessary to redeem mankind to Himself, and since He did it all, I am free from the bondage of sin and can live for Him. THAT is the Gospel. Note that nowhere in there do I say I can live for myself.

 

[hadit]

Mat 22:34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together.
Mat 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Let's not stop there. The very next verse says, "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." IOW, if you get those two right, you will get everything right.

 

[TruthSeeker112125]

Were you taught that you have to apply effort to achieve a state acceptable to God instead of simply accepting what He's already done and rejoicing in being made righteous? When was the last time you simply basked in God's presence, knowing you are completely and totally righteous in His eyes because of Christ's sacrifice? Do you instead worry like Martha that things must be done, you must be active, and you cannot sit at His feet like Mary did? Both sisters were doing good, but Mary did better by setting aside duty and action in favor of relationship. IOW, do you feel that you need to cleanse and purify yourself through works before you can enjoy God's presence?

That's ludicrous, as I've explained multiple times. Do better. See below for yet another explanation.

I fully trust God to reveal to me any sin that I need to address. The prayer that God answers every single time and very quickly is, "Lord, reveal any wickedness in me". Every time I pray that prayer, He is swift to respond. Of course, I also apply common sense. If I know something is sin to me, I'd better avoid it.

Okay, have I not explained this so many times already? But, since you are at least playing at being obtuse, I'll go over it yet again.

1. Christ did everything necessary to save me. "It is finished" means just that, it's done and over with, the debt is paid. All I need to do is accept it. As I walk into God's courtroom, guilty and deserving of condemnation, Christ hands me a pardon and says, "Don't worry about it, you're guilty but I've already paid your penalty". That means I stand before God rightly accused, completely guilty, but forgiven and cleansed. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". IOW, I can't cleanse myself, He has to do it, and not only that, but He WILL do it, according to that Scripture. Now, if I harbor that sin in my heart and refuse to acknowledge it after He reveals it to me, that's another ballgame.
2. Christ gave us commands to follow, but we do not follow them like we did the Law. The Law was punitive while grace is not. We follow His commands because we love Him, and we love Him because He puts His Spirit within us and our hearts turn to Him. We then naturally want to tell others about the Gospel because it is God's desire that all come to Him, and what pleases Him also pleases us. How can I live selfishly with my wife if I truly love her? I can't, I look to see what actions please her and do them because I know they make her happy, and that makes ME happy.
3. Faith is not a passive thing. "Yeah, sure, I believe in God". So what, demons also believe. No, faith requires action. Because I put my faith in Him and He put His Spirit in me, I am compelled to act. How can I claim to have faith without showing it in the way I live my life? The important point is that the actions do not cause salvation, they are the result of salvation. You can live the "Godliest", nicest, most outwardly attractive life of anyone on the face of the earth and still stand before God condemned.
4. I will stand before God covered by the blood of Christ and my sin will be no more. I can never, under my own power, completely cleanse myself and there is no point in giving me punishment in purgatory after I die in the vain hope that I will somehow accomplish that goal, even with the prayers of those still on the earth hoping to hurry me through but having absolutely no idea if they're accomplishing anything or if I've already purified myself and I'm out of there.

Christ did everything necessary to redeem mankind to Himself, and since He did it all, I am free from the bondage of sin and can live for Him. THAT is the Gospel. Note that nowhere in there do I say I can live for myself.

Mat 5:17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


Mat 22:34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together.
Mat 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

 

[hadit]

Mat 5:17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


Mat 22:34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together.
Mat 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Let's not stop there. "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." IOW, if you get those two right, you will get everything right.

 

[TruthSeeker112125]

Let's not stop there. The very next verse says, "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." IOW, if you get those two right, you will get everything right.

Hadit,..... No one will be "Perfect" until the Resurrection, & The Covenant is placed within their "Heart/Mind".

Joh 5:13 But he who was healed didn’t know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a crowd being in the place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “Behold, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you.”
Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of mine they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says Yahweh.
Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and I will write it in their heart. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 They will no longer each teach his neighbor, and every man teach his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh;’ for they will all know me, from their least to their greatest,” says Yahweh: “for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The "Teaching" of Knowing YAHWEH/ Know the Lord,, is on going Today, which means that "Covenant" has not been placed within anyone.

 

[Meriweather]

Were you taught that you have to apply effort to achieve a state acceptable to God instead of simply accepting what He's already done and rejoicing in being made righteous? When was the last time you simply basked in God's presence, knowing you are completely and totally righteous in His eyes because of Christ's sacrifice? Do you instead worry like Martha that things must be done, you must be active, and you cannot sit at His feet like Mary did? Both sisters were doing good, but Mary did better by setting aside duty and action in favor of relationship. IOW, do you feel that you need to cleanse and purify yourself through works before you can enjoy God's presence?

Don't be silly. Please.

 

[Meriweather]

That's ludicrous, as I've explained multiple times. Do better. See below for yet another explanation.

Ludicrous is how I saw your first post on this. What is the matter with you?

 

[Meriweather]

I will stand before God covered by the blood of Christ and my sin will be no more.

You believe God will change you into an entirely different person the moment you die?

 

[hadit]

You believe God will change you into an entirely different person the moment you die?

He is faithful and just to not only forgive us of our sin, but to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. HE will do it, not me. I trust HIM to do it, knowing my efforts do nothing. Because of that, I am free to live for Him and not for myself, because the law of sin and death is broken. IOW, I don't have to know when or how He does it, I just know I am covered.

 

[hadit]

Ludicrous is how I saw your first post on this. What is the matter with you?

Apparently, you think there is something wrong with me because I do not adhere to Catholic dogma.

 

[Meriweather]

He is faithful and just to not only forgive us of our sin, but to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. HE will do it, not me. I trust HIM to do it, knowing my efforts do nothing. Because of that, I am free to live for Him and not for myself, because the law of sin and death is broken. IOW, I don't have to know when or how He does it, I just know I am covered.

Sin is missing the target that separates us from God. Sin is our choice, actions we choose even when we know they separate us from God. What attachments do we have in this life that cause this separation from God? Why do we allow ourselves that choice in this life? And, allowing ourselves the choice, thereby attaching ourselves to that sin(s) in this life that causes separation from God, how do you believe God will sever that attachment we have once we die?

If your reply remains you "don't have to know when or how He does it", then doesn't that include a purification process known as purgatory/purging?

 

[Meriweather]

Apparently, you think there is something wrong with me because I do not adhere to Catholic dogma.

No, I don't think anything is wrong with you because you do not adhere to Catholic dogma. I could not care less about that. What is wrong is your interpretation/conclusions about Catholicism. You wrongfully and continually accuse Catholics of something called "works-based theology". When I point out that Catholics believe in Jesus' words, "Pick up your cross and follow me" or Paul saying to "run the race" or Jesus telling us not to bury the talent he gave us, but multiply it, we get denounced for something called "works-based" theology. Call it what you will, but we call it discipleship, and if your denomination chooses to skip past all these verses because of fear it will be judged "works based", then own it. However, if you are following these same teachings as Catholics, there is no reason to judge Catholics are somehow doing this same thing wrong.

 

[hadit]

Sin is missing the target that separates us from God. Sin is our choice, actions we choose even when we know they separate us from God. What attachments do we have in this life that cause this separation from God? Why do we allow ourselves that choice in this life? And, allowing ourselves the choice, thereby attaching ourselves to that sin(s) in this life that causes separation from God, how do you believe God will sever that attachment we have once we die?

He is faithful and just to not only forgive us of our sin, but to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It's a deep theological question as to how He severs our attachment to sin, but I believe that when I die, I leave everything of this earth behind and I'm free to be in God's presence, covered by the blood of Christ, fully forgiven and with no inclination to sin anymore.

If your reply remains you "don't have to know when or how He does it", then doesn't that include a purification process known as purgatory/purging?

Question, does your sin nature follow you into purgatory or does it die when your body dies?

If it dies and does not follow you (that's what I believe), are you not already purified because you have no further inclination to sin, leaving only forgiveness for sin, which Jesus grants and believers don't have to earn? Remember, He paid the total price for all sin, so we don't suffer any penalty for it. And if the sin nature is gone, there would be nothing keeping the saint from immediately pleading Jesus' blood to cover him, no hiding out of shame, desiring to fall back into it or anything like that. I do not, for example, believe that Jesus would not immediately reveal sin to a saint just for the purpose of making him suffer. God forbid. No extra time or suffering would then be required because the cleansing and purifying is done as soon as the saint appears before Christ. Why would God take extra time and make you suffer if your sin nature is no more and He forgives immediately and totally? Sin is forgiven freely and immediately, unless you believe you have to earn forgiveness, which I emphatically do not. That would counter the Gospel.

If, OTOH, you are not fully cleansed upon death and your sin nature does follow you, then you would still have the inclination to sin and you would keep sinning while in purgatory, which is no different than the way it is here on earth. Why then is purgatory any different and why would we think extra time there is going to do anything more to purify us if our nature still causes us to sin while we're there? IOW, if we can't purify our own minds and hearts here on earth, why do we think we're going to do it if we're in another place and suffer for a couple of centuries? Also, do you then think your sin nature finally leaves you at the end of your time in purgatory, or do you think you take it with you when you stand before God's throne and you will have to battle it for eternity?

You elsewhere described purgatory as a place where we work on ourselves. Do you think that you can make yourself righteous, that you can cleanse yourself of sin if all that's different from here and now is your location? I don't. Basically, you're saying that God can't get it done and that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough because YOU have to work on YOURSELF, meaning that your cleansing from all unrighteousness relies on you, not Him. I don't believe that. I see no benefit to a time of suffering after death for further purification when we are already purified. That just sounds like God punishing us for sin, which counters the Gospel. Think, you are describing a saint of God who walked in relationship with God, suffering after death for sin, sin that Jesus died to forgive and for which He paid the penalty.

I believe God is faithful and just to not only forgive me of my sin, but to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Not by my efforts, but by His grace. Purgatory just sounds like God imposing something I have to earn between me and Him, and that's not the Gospel.