Zone1 CATHOLICS should listen to Mary

[Hafar1014]

I trust Paul more than Campbell. Paul was there:
1 Cor. 15:6 After that he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, but some have fallen asleep.

Campbell didn't show up until the 20th century. Since you give credit to his book, do you think that Moses was also a myth?

Moses didnt come back from the dead or claim he was god. Some of the history is embellished Im sure. Moses was also a hero.
The Jesus myth doesnt make sense and religion should make sense

 

[BULLDOG]

I trust Paul more than Campbell. Paul was there:
1 Cor. 15:6 After that he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, but some have fallen asleep.

Campbell didn't show up until the 20th century. Since you give credit to his book, do you think that Moses was also a myth?

Well no. Paul claimed to have had one encounter with Jesus after his death and resurrection, but there is no record of him meeting Jesus during his earthly ministry.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Moses didnt come back from the dead or claim he was god. Some of the history is embellished Im sure. Moses was also a hero.
The Jesus myth doesnt make sense and religion should make sense

Moses who? You mean Moses the myth, don't you? God Himself buried Moses. He didn't come back. He didn't claim he was God.

He did claim that he hung out with God, and became God's spokesperson. Myth or hero? He got water from a rock? Really? Did he really turn his staff into a snake? Is it a myth that he could turn water into blood?
And you believe that shit?

How do you separate your hero from his actions? Do you pick and choose what parts you believe in, and what parts you write off as bullshit? If you can turn those crazy things Moses was supposed to have done into heroic actions, how could you not believe that Jesus was as heroic?

 

[SaxonJackson]

I have a better idea. Listen to Jesus Christ. His Words and opinions are the only ones that matter in the long run (and the short run).

 

[The Irish Ram]

Well no. Paul claimed to have had one encounter with Jesus after his death and resurrection, but there is no record of him meeting Jesus during his earthly ministry.

Paul never said he was with Jesus. Paul was speaking to those who were there and did see him.
Peter was there.
When Peter said "many of those who saw Jesus," he was referring to the eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, miracles, death, and resurrection, testifying to God raising Jesus from the dead, emphasizing they couldn't help but speak of these things, especially after Jesus appeared to over 500 people, as recorded in the book of Acts and 1Corinth. Peter declared that he and the apostles were witnesses to these events, including Jesus' ascension.

People would not have been hung on crosses as far as the eye could see, eaten by lions, gored by bulls, set on fire, impaled on spikes and boiled in oil over some myth they heard one day...

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Pray to whoever or whatever you choose. Just don't try to force others to share your beliefs.

Is he "forcing" anyone? It's always been Catholics imposing their will on others

 

[BULLDOG]

Paul never said he was with Jesus. Paul was speaking to those who were there and did see him.
Peter was there.
When Peter said "many of those who saw Jesus," he was referring to the eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, miracles, death, and resurrection, testifying to God raising Jesus from the dead, emphasizing they couldn't help but speak of these things, especially after Jesus appeared to over 500 people, as recorded in the book of Acts and 1Corinth. Peter declared that he and the apostles were witnesses to these events, including Jesus' ascension.

People would not have been hung on crosses as far as the eye could see, eaten by lions, gored by bulls, set on fire, impaled on spikes and boiled in oil over some myth they heard one day...

Do you think all those horrendous things came about as a response to Jesus? They were all being practiced long before Jesus.

 

[BULLDOG]

Is he "forcing" anyone? It's always been Catholics imposing their will on others

Passing laws based on someone's interpretation of the Bible is forcing.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Do you think all those horrendous things came about as a response to Jesus?

No. I think this is a response to Jesus, the Christ.

Early Persecution (1st Century)
Jewish Authorities: The Book of Acts describes persecution by the Sanhedrin (Jewish religious court) and figures like Saul (later Paul). Stephen was martyred by stoning shortly after Jesus' crucifixion.

• Roman Empire (Nero): The first major Roman persecution began under Emperor Nero (AD 64) after the Great Fire of Rome, with Christians brutally executed as scapegoats
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• Roman Empire Persecutions (2nd & 3rd Centuries)

Local & Sporadic: For the first two centuries, persecution was often localized and sporadic, driven by popular suspicion or local rulers.

• Reasons: Christians refused to worship the emperor or Roman gods, seen as treasonous and antisocial.
• Systematic Persecution: The first empire-wide, systematic persecution was under Emperor Decius (AD 249–251), demanding all citizens sacrifice to the gods.

Later Major Persecutions
Emperor Diocletian: The "Great Persecution" under Diocletian (starting AD 303) was the most severe, involving widespread destruction of churches, imprisonment, and executions.

 

[Cougarbear]

The analogy fails because the person doesn't need your lifeline. He can swim on his own

Dense. The analogy starts with you are drowning! You can’t swim if you are drowning. So, answer the question.

 

[Cougarbear]

Thats your interpretation which fails. The assumption that one doesn't believe as you doesnt mean they dont have their own faith with no need of yours. Its really quite arrogant to think your faith is superior

You keep saying the analogy doesn’t work. The analogies work but your straw man argument never works.

 

[SaxonJackson]

Moses didnt come back from the dead or claim he was god. Some of the history is embellished Im sure. Moses was also a hero.
The Jesus myth doesnt make sense and religion should make sense

Using the Old Testament only:

1) The world and the universe and every living thing were created by the power of God's Word and out of thin air.
2) Enoch and Elijah were taken up into Heaven without ever experiencing death.
3) Moses' rod was turned into a serpent.
4) God fed the 12 Tribes in the wilderness with Manna that fell from Heaven.
5) The Red Sea is divided as the Israelites make their escape.
6) God held the sun and the moon motionless for a time.

There are many other Old Testament miracles (the burning bush, etc.). Do any of the above miracles "make sense?" They do if you believe in the sovereignty, power, and divine will of an Almighty God. And if God can perform these miracles, He can raise His Son from the dead but He can experience life from a human perspective, i.e., be God in the flesh.

 

[Hafar1014]

Using the Old Testament only:

1) The world and the universe and every living thing were created by the power of God's Word and out of thin air.
2) Enoch and Elijah were taken up into Heaven without ever experiencing death.
3) Moses' rod was turned into a serpent.
4) God fed the 12 Tribes in the wilderness with Manna that fell from Heaven.
5) The Red Sea is divided as the Israelites make their escape.
6) God held the sun and the moon motionless for a time.

There are many other Old Testament miracles (the burning bush, etc.). Do any of the above miracles "make sense?" They do if you believe in the sovereignty, power, and divine will of an Almighty God. And if God can perform these miracles, He can raise His Son from the dead but He can experience life from a human perspective, i.e., be God in the flesh.

They are allegories and metaphors.

 

[SaxonJackson]

They are allegories and metaphors.

Allegories and Metaphors tell a story or offer some moral example. Please tell us what the parting of the Red Sea actually means. Or you can start by explaining to everyone what Enoch or Elijah being taken into Heaven actually means. I'm patiently awaiting your response.

 

[Hafar1014]

Enoch lived in an age of moral decline, "He is described as walked in the fear of with God" to create metaphor for Gods moral values. The same words were used to describe Noah.

The parting of the Red Seas just shows that God is protecting his people.

None of these actually happened. If you believe they did you miss the entire meaning

 

[SaxonJackson]

Enoch lived in an age of moral decline, "He is described as walked in the fear of with God" to create metaphor for Gods moral values. The same words were used to describe Noah.

The parting of the Red Seas just shows that God is protecting his people.

None of these actually happened. If you believe they did you miss the entire meaning

The meaning is MUCH deeper when you read these events in a literal way. What better way to protect the Israelites than to offer them an escape through a divided sea? Had He NOT parted the sea, the Egyptians would have captured and killed them.

Explain God, if you will. Is He an "allegory" or "metaphor?"

 

[Cougarbear]

They are allegories and metaphors.

Where do you get this idea or interpretation? Two opposing views, understanding and interpretations. Who breaks the tie? For instance, the Jews taught and still do that Isaiah was speaking about Hesikia while Christians say it was messianic about Jesus. Who breaks the tie? In Jesus day it was Jesus and his Apostles. The same is true today. The tie can only be broken by Jesus and His Prophets and Apostles. Do you have any apostles and prophets? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does. The tie is broken. Your interpretation is wrong.

 

[DennisPTate]

PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS

Anyone who has glanced at the newspaper has probably come across the advertisement by the Knights of Columbus in which they advertise “Prayer conversation with God, his angels and his Saints.”

The Pope prays to Mary and encourages all Catholics to do the same. In his Sunday mass in Denver in Aug.1993 John Paul II entrusted the youth and the entire world under Mary’s protection and guidance.

Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).

The Roman Catholic apologia claims that both Mary and saints are now glorified and have greater abilities. Some Catholics claim that they don't pray to Mary, but rather only ask her to pray for them. All this is like asking them to pray for you as you would ask a friend. But a person would have to pray to Mary if they are asking her something because she is not physically here. However we do not entrust the world to one or ask protection and guidance from someone who in turn is going to ask God!

A excerpt of the conclusion of the Rosary prayed by millions is: “Hail, holy Queen [of heaven], Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.” To Mary they pray. The most well-known portion of the Rosary and most recited Catholic prayer, repeated millions of times is Catholics praying to Mary and asking in prayer for her to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

If this is not praying to Mary then one is not praying to the Father either in the Rosary.

God says to ask Him-- not Mary. Only God can answer ones prayer. So it becomes useless to pray to a saint, any saint no matter how great they may be.

Despite the rejections of saying they are praying to Mary or saints the Catholic Church does encourage praying to Mary as these excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church prove: “Beginning with Mans unique cooperation with the working of the Holy- Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God” (Catechism 2675) They do this claiming they are centering it “on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries.”

'This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria” (Catechism 2676)

“Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father” (Catechism 2679)

They can pray to her because their church says “Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son ... ”

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Can this be found in the Bible?

Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to the Virgin Mary urging all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. Using the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John-- “Woman, behold thy son!” and “Behold thy mother!” (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement “IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Even the Pope prays to Mary “Mary of the New Advent, we implore your protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting [World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world ... the whole world to YOU” (August 1993, Denver, Colorado, Pope John Paul II).

Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”

This is not like asking someone on earth to pray for you, since they are physically here to converse. What the Roman Catholic is doing is asking those who are not physically here and are unable to see or affect the affairs of mankind on earth to do what is attributed to God only.

When we look in the Bible we find that prayer is directed to God alone. To set up a person as a recipient for our prayers, no matter how great they are is making them out to be deity. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints, or those who are dead passing from our world. There is much to be said of those who practice Spiritism that use this method. Catholic defenders suggest that Mary is not part of “the dead”, since she's spiritually alive in Heaven. The passages in Deuteronomy 18 and Isaiah 8 are referring to the physically dead, not the spiritually dead. There are hundreds of prayers and passages about prayer in scripture, and none of them instruct prayers to the dead. The scriptures forbid attempting to contact the dead, yet the Catholic Church teaches people to do it.

The most often used way to pray is by the rosary, which is a series of prayers said that are counted on a string of beads (groups of ten small beads separated by one large one, there are five sets of decades) All the prayers said to both Mary and the Father are said with no distinction. There is one “our father” with ten “hail Mary’s” said over and over, it ends with trust in Mary’s intercession. Clearly the emphasis is on Mary.

The Bible says in Eph.2:18, “for through him we both have access by one spirit to the father.” Jesus taught us to pray and it was to be directed to the Father although on occasional instances it was directed to the Lord as a witness to others around, i.e. Stephen when he was stoned. All prayer is directed to God-false prayer is directed to false gods or people.

Heb.7:25 he is our high priest who lives to make intercession. If God is praying for us is this not sufficient. Why go To a middle man (or woman who God has not instructed to go to) when we have God himself.

Walter Martin understood all too well the significance of the action of praying to one other than god. “Mark this well; there is not one verse of the scripture in the New Testament anywhere which authorized anybody to intercede with God after death. We are told to pray for one another only while on earth. Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is suppose to be directed to god while we are alive. There is no authority in scripture for prayers either by, to or for the dead. Yet this is the cardinal tradition of the Roman Catholic church- a tradition which the 4th chapter of Hebrews very pointedly contradicts.”

There is not one place in the New Testament that people pray to Mary or saints in the early church the apostles never wrote of it in the book of Acts or the epistles. There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead. and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.

Duet. 18:10-12 tells us about a medium, a spiritist is some one who calls on the dead. All these have to do with contact, talking and communicating with spirits, which is strictly forbidden. They are in a different place than earth, and fallen angels (demons) love to deceive by convincing people they are their dead relative, Mary or Jesus speaking to them.

Today there are appearances of Mary which tell people to pray the rosary (which practice is not mentioned in scripture and even forbidden to pray in repetition) or ask her for grace. Clearly this apparition is not the Mary of Scripture who supposedly travels from heaven and does not reveal her son in accordance to scripture.

Mary was in the upper room with everyone else to receive the Holy Spirit. She was not numbered among the apostles who were given special authority to do miracles and the scriptures have no focus on her at all after the resurrection of Jesus. In the twenty-one Apostolic letters in Bible, her name does not occur in one of them, why? If she is so important as the Catholic Church says why did any of the apostles not recognize this to be written down for all the church throughout time? This is an easy question that can be answered. Because Scripture sis the only thing that is called inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit of God did not recognize Mary in such as way as the Roman Catholic church does. We need to listen to what the Father said about his Son when he spoke in an audible voice from heaven at the mount of Jesus’ transfiguration. “This is my beloved son hear him.” God has always pointed to his son for his final revelation in these last days Heb.1:1. If any spirit appears and does not point to the Son and refuses the Biblical test of truth we are to reject it's message. The Mary of Roman Catholicism fails miserably when this is applied.

The first martyr of the Church Stephen prayed to Jesus to receive his spirit in Acts 7:59 contrary to this Catholics today pray “obtain for us oh Mary the grace for eternal salvation.” This shows they don’t possess it yet and are depending on a mere human to obtain for them by the privilege of being the Saviors mother. To do this is to ignore Jesus in His office of savior, in His high priestly role today and as our soon coming King. Nothing in Scripture ever indicates that Mary had prayers offered to her. no Catholic can ever prove this from the Bible only from the additions added on by the church.
The last recorded words of Mary in the Bible are “His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it” (John 2:5). She is saying, listen to Jesus. If Catholics consider themselves servants and truly listen to Mary they will obey her by listening to her advice-listen and believe Jesus’ words in the Scripture.

Catholics would do well to also hear the words of Christ who said, 'whatever you ask the Father in my name He will give you, Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” (John 16:23) Only God can fill you with this joy.

Praying to Mary and the Saints

Three year and ten month old Colton Burpo, [at the time of his near death experience], reports meeting Mary the Mother of Jesus during his brush with death that was made famous by the book and film, "Heaven is for Real." His testimonies of heaven occurred when he was four, five, six, seven and eight years of age but he did not lose his memories of the basics of his NDE even much later on.

Colton also met John the Baptist and said that he was nice.

I met my little sister in heaven - The near death experience of Colton Burpo​

 

[Cougarbear]

Three year and ten month old Colton Burpo, [at the time of his near death experience], reports meeting Mary the Mother of Jesus during his brush with death that was made famous by the book and film, "Heaven is for Real." His testimonies of heaven occurred when he was four, five, six, seven and eight years of age but he did not lose his memories of the basics of his NDE even much later on.

Colton also met John the Baptist and said that he was nice.

I met my little sister in heaven - The near death experience of Colton Burpo​

It's nice to keep faith in God alive. Even through the middle ages God gave some light to keep a spark going even though a great apostasy was taking place. This is more of the same. The problem is that these events have a negative effect on some who get way too caught up in it. It's supposed to be just a light that God lives and exists. It does not have the power nor authority to bring the necessary change for people to receive the works necessary to increase faith and change. There are no ordinances or covenants being made to increase faith and necessary for not only salvation by Grace, but eternal life by covenants in the Temple of the Lord.
Near death experiences are interesting if they are truly given by God. But, the information received by some of these people are contrary to what is necessary for exaltation and eternal life. Instead, they may get you into heaven after your resurrection. But, you won't know the real Jesus Christ because you refused to make the necessary covenants. With authority, baptisms of water and the gift of the Holy Ghost, washings and anointings, endowment covenants and most important, sealing of you and your wife for time and ALL ETERNITY.

 

[DennisPTate]

It's nice to keep faith in God alive. Even through the middle ages God gave some light to keep a spark going even though a great apostasy was taking place. This is more of the same. The problem is that these events have a negative effect on some who get way too caught up in it. It's supposed to be just a light that God lives and exists. It does not have the power nor authority to bring the necessary change for people to receive the works necessary to increase faith and change. There are no ordinances or covenants being made to increase faith and necessary for not only salvation by Grace, but eternal life by covenants in the Temple of the Lord.
Near death experiences are interesting if they are truly given by God. But, the information received by some of these people are contrary to what is necessary for exaltation and eternal life. Instead, they may get you into heaven after your resurrection. But, you won't know the real Jesus Christ because you refused to make the necessary covenants. With authority, baptisms of water and the gift of the Holy Ghost, washings and anointings, endowment covenants and most important, sealing of you and your wife for time and ALL ETERNITY.

You have my apologies in advance if I am incorrect but I do believe that within a century or two or three, the grandchildren and great grandchildren of residents of Utah will be going into actual historical time periods on this earth but unlike the gang on Star Trek, they will be free to set in motion entirely new time lines?


It is my strong suspicion that technology that is centuries beyond the technology that is publicly available is hidden under ground in Utah.

I believe that this was set up by Jesus for many, many ,many reasons.

I consider that Latter day Saints have a massive "RECHABITE" CALLING on them that will assist them to be able to give some credit to major leaders in this time period who will have gift comparable to the Prophet Jeremiah.


Jeremiah 35

The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying, Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink. Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites; ...

What do you personally think of my feeling that Latter day Saints are modern "Rechabites?"