Zone1 There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Faith

[Hafar1014]

Im a Jew I dont need to be saved

 

[Meriweather]

I'll repost what I said in post#157 about St. Catherine of Genoa and St Catherine of Ricci:

St. Catherine of Genoa, who is said to have suffered the pain of purgatory on earth, claimed “there is in purgatory as much pain as in hell” (Treatise on Purgatory). Like the damned, souls there suffer hunger for the God they don’t yet see—like a man who could live without eating, hungering more and more for the bread he doesn’t have (to use St. Catherine’s image). And they suffer from fire that “will be more painful than anything man can suffer in the present life” (St. Augustine, On Psalm 37:3).

Once St. Catherine of Ricci is said to have suffered 40 days for a soul in Purgatory—when a novice touched her hand, she remarked, “Mother, you are burning!”


At the same time, St. Catherine of Genoa also taught, “Souls in purgatory unite great joy with great suffering … No peace is comparable to that of the souls in purgatory, except that of the saints in heaven.”

There’s a mysterious ebb and flow of pain and joy in Purgatory, says the Dominican Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, because the suffering is temporary and leads to heaven: The more the soul loves God, the more it suffers not seeing Him; the more if suffers, the more joy and love it has in drawing closer to God.

The saints tell us what Purgatory is actually like

So what's your problem with purgatory? To me, it can be compared to a child awaiting Christmas. The excitement and the yearning that it is not yet Christmas can be overwhelming. Is it best to say to a child, "I can see how painful it is for your to wait for Christmas Day. So, if you want, open all your presents that are there now." Or, one would you give a newborn a multi-speed bicycle for his first Christmas. No. He's not yet ready to ride a bike.

In our society, we don't appreciate the value of waiting. 'Wait' is one of those four-letter words. Even so, it has great value we don't often enjoy or appreciate.

 

[hadit]

Do you believe that everything in this world belongs to God? Should the attitude be, I just let God take care of everything, it's his responsibility? Or, is the better attitude one of awe and gratitude of being able to offer, with his grace, our own service? There is no earning involved because even if there were, that "earning" already belongs to God. God offers the world so much. What are we offering back to God? Merely what is already his, but he has asked for our touch. For me, that is awe, being able to contribute to God's creation and God's plans.

Otherwise...it's too much like someone saying, "You're just in the way. I'll do all it myself." The great grandeur of God is that he invites us into the process to the extent we want to, are capable of, contributing. When we get it all wrong? God's word to Paul: Never mind your weakness/failure. It's still enough for me to work with.

We walk in obedience because we are freed from sin. How can we not?

 

[hadit]

So what's your problem with purgatory?

That it's not Biblical, that it's a roadblock between me and God, that it violates the idea of a final judgement because it says, "okay you died and you put your faith in Christ and He forgave all your sin but hey, go back and get rid of those bad habits first", that it puts my purification in my hands (get rid of those bad habits before God can cleanse me from all unrighteousness and welcome me into His presence).

And, of course, I have no idea from you if we are tempted to sin while we're in purgatory and if our rebellious thoughts would add to our time. And if we're not tempted to sin, are we not already purified, given that Jesus has already forgiven all our sin?

Maybe we need to better understand what it means to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. To me it means all my sin is forgiven and I am so completely submitted to God's authority that I cannot even envision any rebellion against Him. What does it mean to you? It SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that God doesn't really forgive us right away, that He wants to punish us a little more before we are welcomed home for good.

To me, it can be compared to a child awaiting Christmas. The excitement and the yearning that it is not yet Christmas can be overwhelming. Is it best to say to a child, "I can see how painful it is for your to wait for Christmas Day. So, if you want, open all your presents that are there now." Or, one would you give a newborn a multi-speed bicycle for his first Christmas. No. He's not yet ready to ride a bike.

In our society, we don't appreciate the value of waiting. 'Wait' is one of those four-letter words. Even so, it has great value we don't often enjoy or appreciate.

Why would God say to a saint (and we are all saints because God says we are) who has loved God and walked in relationship with Him his entire life, "Sorry, you're going to have to go wait some more because you have to get rid of some bad habits. Oh, but if you have some people praying for you, I'll cut your time short"? It just doesn't make sense to me. Jesus made the sacrifice for sin and God is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, so why an additional time of suffering to cleanse me some more? It's like we're saying to God, "I know you promised to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, but I can't just accept that, so I'm going to go over here for a while and help you do it". The entire Gospel is based on the idea that God has already done everything necessary to restore sinful man to full relationship with Him.

Remember, the Prodigal Son didn't have to cleanse himself or rid himself of all bad habits before the father took him back into the family home. The father ran TO him and restored him to full relationship in the family simply because he came home. He wasn't banished to the stables for a while to prove himself or to purge rebellion from him or anything like that. No, the father put his ring on his son's hand (giving him back his full authority as a member of the family) and held a celebration that he returned. Since Jesus gave that parable to us as a model for how God treats us, I don't see any reason for purgatory.

 

[Meriweather]

That it's not Biblical, that it's a roadblock between me and God, that it violates the idea of a final judgement because it says, "okay you died and you put your faith in Christ and He forgave all your sin but hey, go back and get rid of those bad habits first", that it puts my purification in my hands (get rid of those bad habits before God can cleanse me from all unrighteousness and welcome me into His presence).

And, of course, I have no idea from you if we are tempted to sin while we're in purgatory and if our rebellious thoughts would add to our time. And if we're not tempted to sin, are we not already purified, given that Jesus has already forgiven all our sin?

Maybe we need to better understand what it means to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. To me it means all my sin is forgiven and I am so completely submitted to God's authority that I cannot even envision any rebellion against Him. What does it mean to you? It SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that God doesn't really forgive us right away, that He wants to punish us a little more before we are welcomed home for good.

Why would God say to a saint (and we are all saints because God says we are) who has loved God and walked in relationship with Him his entire life, "Sorry, you're going to have to go wait some more because you have to get rid of some bad habits. Oh, but if you have some people praying for you, I'll cut your time short"? It just doesn't make sense to me. Jesus made the sacrifice for sin and God is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, so why an additional time of suffering to cleanse me some more? It's like we're saying to God, "I know you promised to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, but I can't just accept that, so I'm going to go over here for a while and help you do it". The entire Gospel is based on the idea that God has already done everything necessary to restore sinful man to full relationship with Him.

Remember, the Prodigal Son didn't have to cleanse himself or rid himself of all bad habits before the father took him back into the family home. The father ran TO him and restored him to full relationship in the family simply because he came home. He wasn't banished to the stables for a while to prove himself or to purge rebellion from him or anything like that. No, the father put his ring on his son's hand (giving him back his full authority as a member of the family) and held a celebration that he returned. Since Jesus gave that parable to us as a model for how God treats us, I don't see any reason for purgatory.

Remember that I do not care whether or not you believe in purgatory/purification. I can only present why there are many who do. First, Jews in Jesus time, and early Christians prayed for those who had passed on. The Bible speaks of purification. There are good reasons many take note of purgatory/purification--and many are from the Bible. Others are from practices since Biblical times, and then in early Christian times. As you note, people of faith have had visions.

Let's take a look at the Parable of the Prodigal Son that you offer.

• Did the Father send servants to keep an eye on his son or to bring him back home?
• Did the Father keep an eye on his far away son and send him food and new clothing when the need arose?
• Did the son suffer? Did he hunger?
• Did the son make the trip home by himself, or did the father send transportation?

I submit that the son had to go through a purification process before he and his father could again meet heart-to-heart and be of the same mind.

 

[hadit]

Remember that I do not care whether or not you believe in purgatory/purification. I can only present why there are many who do. First, Jews in Jesus time, and early Christians prayed for those who had passed on. The Bible speaks of purification. There are good reasons many take note of purgatory/purification--and many are from the Bible. Others are from practices since Biblical times, and then in early Christian times. As you note, people of faith have had visions.

Let's take a look at the Parable of the Prodigal Son that you offer.

• Did the Father send servants to keep an eye on his son or to bring him back home?

No, and sinners today are not brought back home until they decide to return. God does not force Himself on anyone.

• Did the Father keep an eye on his far away son and send him food and new clothing when the need arose?

No, and sinners today are not provided for by the Father like His followers are either. That is part of realizing how deadly sin is. If you think you suffer no consequences for it, why not indulge in it?

• Did the son suffer? Did he hunger?

He absolutely did, and sinners today suffer the consequences of sin. Followers of Christ are free from the law of sin and death.

• Did the son make the trip home by himself, or did the father send transportation?

He turned and went back home, and sinners today have to turn to the Father, who then runs to them in welcome.

I submit that the son had to go through a purification process before he and his father could again meet heart-to-heart and be of the same mind.

Are you saying that suffering the consequences of sin are part of the purification process? The son suffered because of his actions and was redeemed when he returned home. He was not banished to the stables for an undetermined amount of time to be purified. In fact, he wanted to return as a servant but the Father restored him fully as a son. As soon as he went to the father, he was restored, not after an additional time of purification.

 

[Zebra]

I'll repost what I said in post#157 about St. Catherine of Genoa and St Catherine of Ricci:

St. Catherine of Genoa, who is said to have suffered the pain of purgatory on earth, claimed “there is in purgatory as much pain as in hell” (Treatise on Purgatory). Like the damned, souls there suffer hunger for the God they don’t yet see—like a man who could live without eating, hungering more and more for the bread he doesn’t have (to use St. Catherine’s image). And they suffer from fire that “will be more painful than anything man can suffer in the present life” (St. Augustine, On Psalm 37:3).

Once St. Catherine of Ricci is said to have suffered 40 days for a soul in Purgatory—when a novice touched her hand, she remarked, “Mother, you are burning!”


At the same time, St. Catherine of Genoa also taught, “Souls in purgatory unite great joy with great suffering … No peace is comparable to that of the souls in purgatory, except that of the saints in heaven.”

There’s a mysterious ebb and flow of pain and joy in Purgatory, says the Dominican Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, because the suffering is temporary and leads to heaven: The more the soul loves God, the more it suffers not seeing Him; the more if suffers, the more joy and love it has in drawing closer to God.

The saints tell us what Purgatory is actually like

Dont we suffer enough on earth?

 

[Zebra]

That it's not Biblical, that it's a roadblock between me and God, that it violates the idea of a final judgement because it says, "okay you died and you put your faith in Christ and He forgave all your sin but hey, go back and get rid of those bad habits first", that it puts my purification in my hands (get rid of those bad habits before God can cleanse me from all unrighteousness and welcome me into His presence).

And, of course, I have no idea from you if we are tempted to sin while we're in purgatory and if our rebellious thoughts would add to our time. And if we're not tempted to sin, are we not already purified, given that Jesus has already forgiven all our sin?

Maybe we need to better understand what it means to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. To me it means all my sin is forgiven and I am so completely submitted to God's authority that I cannot even envision any rebellion against Him. What does it mean to you? It SOUNDS LIKE you're saying that God doesn't really forgive us right away, that He wants to punish us a little more before we are welcomed home for good.

Why would God say to a saint (and we are all saints because God says we are) who has loved God and walked in relationship with Him his entire life, "Sorry, you're going to have to go wait some more because you have to get rid of some bad habits. Oh, but if you have some people praying for you, I'll cut your time short"? It just doesn't make sense to me. Jesus made the sacrifice for sin and God is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, so why an additional time of suffering to cleanse me some more? It's like we're saying to God, "I know you promised to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, but I can't just accept that, so I'm going to go over here for a while and help you do it". The entire Gospel is based on the idea that God has already done everything necessary to restore sinful man to full relationship with Him.

Remember, the Prodigal Son didn't have to cleanse himself or rid himself of all bad habits before the father took him back into the family home. The father ran TO him and restored him to full relationship in the family simply because he came home. He wasn't banished to the stables for a while to prove himself or to purge rebellion from him or anything like that. No, the father put his ring on his son's hand (giving him back his full authority as a member of the family) and held a celebration that he returned. Since Jesus gave that parable to us as a model for how God treats us, I don't see any reason for purgatory.

True!

 

[Meriweather]

not after an additional time of purification.

This is adding to the story! The story did not include "additional time". Go back to how the story was told originally. Without the father, the son found himself in a world of hurt. He recognized all he had done that had separated him from the father. Without the father he was hungry, cold, and alone. That is where the behavior he had chosen had left him. He had to travel the long road back to his father. Are we agreed on all of that?

Take note that the son did not murder. He did not become a thief or a robber. He had just wanted a little fun-sinning, which meant separation from his father--the separation he chose and then came to suffer because of it. The father was not a helicopter-parent who came running to scoop him up out of the mess he had made for himself, to carry him home. The father waited through his child's suffering. He waited through his son's journey home. That separation, chosen by the son, was the purgatory both were experiencing until the son gave up all that was separating them, and the son returned home, where the father was and had been the entire time.

Note, the father, from a distance saw the son, which means the father was now within seeing distance to the son. Total forgiveness for what the son had done--but had given up--defined this new relationship between them.

Our difference is that you believe when you die in your sins, the Father will sweep you up, sins and all. You believe at this time, your sins will magically disappear, no separation, no suffering at all, that the Father, as helicopter parent, will see to that. That's not what happened in the Prodigal Son. The son had to give up his sin, become aware he was in a world of hurt, and take the journey back to his father.

You noted that some of the Saints described the yearning to see God the souls in purgatory were experiencing. I'm sure you can imagine the yearning, on his long journey back, the prodigal son was feeling because he wanted to see his father. After this purgatory was complete, there was no "additional time" away from the father. He was home.