Zone1 There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Faith

[Meriweather]

Ah, good one. A New Year's resolution. Let's look at one. You and your husband both resolve to drop 10 pounds. You start watching carefully what and how much you eat. You walk several miles a day at the crack of dawn. After a month, you get on the scale and...you lost 3 pounds. Meanwhile, your husband, who never really intended to work at losing weight but switched from sugared to non-sugared drinks and cut out second bowls of ice cream has lost 8 pounds already. Was he given a gift because he has a faster metabolism or has he earned his weight loss? Have you earned your 3-pound loss or was it a gift that required nothing from you?

Absolutely I view sticking with such a resolution and enjoying the benefits thereof as having earned something. I do not, however, view accepting the gift of salvation to be an accomplishment, as it is a gift.

Here's where you again wonder off into ludicrous land.

1. Salvation through Jesus' sacrifice is an absolute, total, undeserved and unearned gift. Avoiding overeating is not a gift, but work, a task. See the difference? I do.
2. I expect people who change their diets and exercise habits so they can improve their lives to be proud of their accomplishments when they see the pounds drop off. I don't, however, expect people who are walking with Christ to be proud of accomplishing salvation, because, as Paul put it, salvation is the gift of God so that no one can boast. See the difference? I do. If I can add to or take away from Christ's sacrifice, than I could boast. I can do neither.

What you are not following is what is given and what you appear to think sins God is totally blind to.

A diet is not a sin. Losing weight is not a sin. The connection you did not make to sin, is that gluttony is a sin. Going on a diet is repentance for gluttony? Since when?

 

[hadit]

Why would weight loss be considered a gift?

Exactly. The results of a New Year's resolution are earned they are not a gift. Now we're getting somewhere. Salvation and purification from God ARE gifts, however, and are NOT earned. They do not require work from me they are freely given. In fact, my efforts to earn them are no better than filthy rags.

The results of a New Year's resolution require you to put in effort, to work, to change. Salvation does not, however, require you to do a blessed thing, it is a free gift from God, that no one can boast in their own accomplishments. Now, don't go wandering down that oft-travelled path where someone who says salvation is a totally free gift from God is accused of thinking they can just receive that gift and go back to living selfishly for themselves. I have made it clear that's not the case.

Now, would you not consider your husband to have gotten a gift when he lost more weight than you without even trying while you struggled, sweat and deprived yourself?

 

[hadit]

What you are not following is what is given and what you appear to think sins God is totally blind to.

At its root, sin (not sins) is rebellion against God. When you start asking, "Is this a sin?", you've already lost the thread. The question to ask is, "If I do this, will I go against what I know God wants me to do, how I know He wants me to live, what is revealed about His character in His word?".

A diet is not a sin.

It can be the result of sin if it is done out of vanity and rejection of the body type God gave you, in the hope of fitting into a society that values a body shape you simply do not and cannot have.

Losing weight is not a sin.

See above for why it can be a problem. See, I don't hold much with saying, "That particular action is always or is never a sin" because that's following a legalistic, law-based approach. The greatest commandments as given by Jesus are not specific actions but are instead attitudes of the heart in which all of the Law and Prophets are wrapped up. That means that yes, you can sin if you are attempting to diet and lose weight. It is what you are attempting to do that can be a sin, not the actions themselves.

The connection you did not make to sin, is that gluttony is a sin. Going on a diet is repentance for gluttony? Since when?

Since the word repentance got its meaning. Of course, changing your diet represents repentance for gluttony. Do you think a glutton has repented if he immediately returns to overeating after repenting? Does an alcoholic repent if he returns to drinking? Does an adulterer repent if he returns to his lover's bed after repenting? Do we call repentance genuine if we do not at least see an effort to overcome temptation?

Repentance means, "Yes, God, you are right. I was wrong to do that", followed by the person stopping the sin and battling further temptation to fall back into it.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly. The results of a New Year's resolution are earned they are not a gift. Now we're getting somewhere. Salvation and purification from God ARE gifts, however, and are NOT earned. They do not require work from me they are freely given. In fact, my efforts to earn them are no better than filthy rags.

We are getting nowhere. You believe weight loss is "earned." What you are still saying is that picking up your cross and following Jesus, running the race, increasing talents given you is "earning." You even believe weight loss is "earned!"

Example, my aunt broke her hip and lost twenty pounds. Do you want to fit "earning" into that? Weight loss is the result of eating less--whether intentionally or unintentionally. No one is "earning" anything.

 

[Meriweather]

The results of a New Year's resolution require you to put in effort, to work, to change. Salvation does not, however, require you to do a blessed thing, it is a free gift from God, that no one can boast in their own accomplishments. Now, don't go wandering down that oft-travelled path where someone who says salvation is a totally free gift from God is accused of thinking they can just receive that gift and go back to living selfishly for themselves. I have made it clear that's not the case.

What difference does it make if/when someone does go back to living selfishly for themselves? Won't Jesus' blood cover all that sin so God never sees it?

 

[Meriweather]

Now, would you not consider your husband to have gotten a gift when he lost more weight than you without even trying while you struggled, sweat and deprived yourself?

No. Weight loss is not a gift, nor anything earned. Weight is the result of several factors.

You might also think of this: Ever work hard at something without earning a thing? I don't understand your fixation on earning. It's such that you seem to see "earning" in almost anything.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course, changing your diet represents repentance for gluttony.

Diet now "represents" repentance? Earlier you said diet is "earning." Don't you mean someone is "earning" their way out of the sin of gluttony instead of depending on Jesus' blood to cover up the sin?

 

[Meriweather]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Let's return to this and recognize we have gotten nowhere. Let's begin again with Jesus' teaching that sin starts in the heart, not with outward actions. Repentance is a change of heart. A change of and in the heart for forgiveness of sins. 'Heart' represents our deepest being. For that great change of heart, we need God's grace, which is freely given. As grace is precious, it helps me to use the analogy of grace being a talent God has granted me. Do I bury that grace/talent? Or am I to increase the blessing given and return it (as it was God's) back to God? This is not earning a thing. It is returning to God what was--and is--God's.

For me, your attitude is that we are to receive from God--but heaven forbid, if we give in return. I can't imagine you truly think that...unless, of course, you are thinking you must convince Catholics they are following an "earning", works-based theology. You do not understand Catholic teaching. Start with that.

 

[hadit]

We are getting nowhere. You believe weight loss is "earned." What you are still saying is that picking up your cross and following Jesus, running the race, increasing talents given you is "earning." You even believe weight loss is "earned!"

It is simple. What you receive as the result of your efforts is earned, it is not a gift. In that light, yes, weight loss as the result of increased exercise and controlled diet is earned. How can it not be when someone works hard, exercises and tightly controls what they eat? Be honest, are you really trying to make the point that someone who does those things does not earn the weight loss? Seriously?

Example, my aunt broke her hip and lost twenty pounds. Do you want to fit "earning" into that? Weight loss is the result of eating less--whether intentionally or unintentionally. No one is "earning" anything.

And you are being deliberately obtuse. I have made it clear I am talking about something that someone receives as the result of working for it. Did you not even notice that I set up the scenario (using your open door of New Year's resolutions) wherein you and your husband both resolve to lose weight? I clearly did not say anything about someone being injured or getting sick and losing weight without putting any effort into it. I even gave you a scenario where your husband effortlessly loses weight without even trying while you struggle to lose even a pounds. Why would you take it to an absurd extreme just to avoid the point?

 

[hadit]

Diet now "represents" repentance?

It can, as I clearly outlined. If I change my diet because I just want to be healthier, that's not repentance. If, OTOH, I change my diet because God convicts me of gluttony, it most certainly represents my repentance. Do you not see that?

Earlier you said diet is "earning."

It is if you're not guilty of gluttony but just change your diet to improve your health. You earn the benefits of a change in diet by putting the effort into changing the diet.

Don't you mean someone is "earning" their way out of the sin of gluttony instead of depending on Jesus' blood to cover up the sin?

And here is where your ignorance of the Protestant belief reveals itself. We ALWAYS depend on Jesus' blood to cover our sin, there is nothing else that can do that. Do you not agree with that? We do NOT, however, believe that repentance means you can just freely go back to the same sin without some change in the heart. If the heart is changed, we have a conscience against the sin and we battle the temptation to fall back into it. You seem to think Protestants believe they can live however they want to live and still be right with God. That is not true.

There are two things at play here. One is the result of changing a diet. When one changes their diet to reduce their caloric intake and loses weight as the result, they have earned that weight loss. I don't see how you can argue against that.

The other is change of diet as repentance for gluttony. It's simple, God convicts me of gluttony, so what do I do when I repent? Do I change my diet, or do I just go back to eating the way I was eating before? I think the answer is clear.

 

[hadit]

What difference does it make if/when someone does go back to living selfishly for themselves? Won't Jesus' blood cover all that sin so God never sees it?

Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. Theologians have gone back and forth on the matter of whether Jesus' sacrifice covers all your sin from the moment you accept Him or if each future sin needs to be confessed and repented from individually. I do not have an easy answer for that except to say that I trust Him to explicitly do what is necessary to cleanse me from all unrighteousness and as He reveals sin to me, I repent from it and strive to avoid it. Thinking salvation is just a get out of jail free card and nothing more is false.

See, this goes back to what I've been saying all along. You are not saved by the blood of Jesus if your heart is not changed and you continue to live for yourself. We are to grow and mature in faith and love for Him, not go back to our lives as if nothing happened. Those good works are the result of, not the cause of, salvation.

 

[hadit]

No. Weight loss is not a gift, nor anything earned. Weight is the result of several factors.

Remember, we're talking about someone who deliberately sets out to lose weight. Do they earn the joy they see when the pounds come off? Do they earn the better health they enjoy? Does an athlete earn the gold medal after winning the race?

You might also think of this: Ever work hard at something without earning a thing?

Of course. One could argue that the satisfaction of knowing you did your best even though you didn't achieve your goal is a reward in itself.

I don't understand your fixation on earning. It's such that you seem to see "earning" in almost anything.

When it comes to salvation, I cannot earn a thing, because earning makes it something God is required to give me, and salvation is not such. It is completely and totally a gift. What I do after salvation is something different. Salvation remains a free gift.

Now, back to purgatory. Do you agree with the saints I quoted about suffering, or do you say they are wrong, (or God forbid, lying)? Also, does your earthly nature (you know, the one you're supposed to put to death daily) follow you into purgatory, constantly tempting you to sin, or are you cleansed from that and no longer tempted to sin? I'm curious about what you're taught.

 

[Meriweather]

It is simple. What you receive as the result of your efforts is earned, it is not a gift. In that light, yes, weight loss as the result of increased exercise and controlled diet is earned. How can it not be when someone works hard, exercises and tightly controls what they eat? Be honest, are you really trying to make the point that someone who does those things does not earn the weight loss? Seriously?

Seriously. The definition of earn is to obtain money for labor or services. It is a transaction between two parties. The result of eating less is weight loss. No one pays someone for losing weight, and nothing is exchanged between two parties.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course. One could argue that the satisfaction of knowing you did your best even though you didn't achieve your goal is a reward in itself.

And again, there is a result attached, but no exchange of goods or money between two parties.

 

[hadit]

Seriously. The definition of earn is to obtain money for labor or services. It is a transaction between two parties. The result of eating less is weight loss. No one pays someone for losing weight,

Ever watched The Biggest Loser? Ever heard of a husband buying his wife something pretty to reward her for her hard work in losing that last 10 pounds?

and nothing is exchanged between two parties.

It doesn't have to be. Earning something is not necessarily tied to money exchanging hands. An athlete earns a title when he wins a race.

 

[Meriweather]

When it comes to salvation, I cannot earn a thing, because earning makes it something God is required to give me, and salvation is not such. It is completely and totally a gift. What I do after salvation is something different. Salvation remains a free gift.

My point: Who are you arguing with? We've already established no one teaches or practices earning salvation. Everyone (as far as I am aware) knows salvation is a gift. So why are you even arguing Catholics are "earning" salvation?

 

[Meriweather]

Ever watched The Biggest Loser? Ever heard of a husband buying his wife something pretty to reward her for her hard work in losing that last 10 pounds?

No to both. By the way, what about the weight loss did the husband gain in exchange? Are you saying he and his wife made a bargain: She would lose weight to please him, and in exchange, he would buy her something pretty? If so, that is a really sad situation for anyone to find him/herself in.

 

[Meriweather]

It doesn't have to be. Earning something is not necessarily tied to money exchanging hands. An athlete earns a title when he wins a race.

No, he wins a title. You use 'earn' as a synonym when there is not an exchange of labor for money between two parties.

 

[hadit]

And again, there is a result attached, but no exchange of goods or money between two parties.

Again, there does not have to be. My father earned my respect by his actions as I was growing up, not because he paid money for it.

 

[hadit]

No to both.

The winner of the show was paid several hundred thousand dollars for losing the most weight.

By the way, what about the weight loss did the husband gain in exchange? Are you saying he and his wife made a bargain: She would lose weight to please him, and in exchange, he would buy her something pretty? If so, that is a really sad situation for anyone to find him/herself in.

Nope, he would have felt that she had earned a reward for her hard work, and he wanted to show her that he valued what she did. Why do you insist on putting everything into a mercenary light?