Zone1 There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Faith

[hadit]

No, he wins a title. You use 'earn' as a synonym when there is not an exchange of labor for money between two parties.

I think you are far too enamored of that interpretation of the word earn. The athlete deserves, he won, he earned the title. He put forth the effort and finished the race first. He is therefore entitled to, deserves, wins, earns the title.

 

[hadit]

My point: Who are you arguing with? We've already established no one teaches or practices earning salvation. Everyone (as far as I am aware) knows salvation is a gift. So why are you even arguing Catholics are "earning" salvation?

This is all in the light of purgatory, where you say we are purified. What kind of purification is going on? Let's start there.

Does the purification involve God changing your heart, or does it involve you doing things to meet certain standards God places in front of you?

 

[Meriweather]

Again, there does not have to be. My father earned my respect by his actions as I was growing up, not because he paid money for it.

Was there a contract/agreement between you? Or, did you give him respect?

 

[Meriweather]

Why do you insist on putting everything into a mercenary light?

It's not mercenary. It is the definition between 'earn' and 'give'. Why do you think people should receive a reward for losing weight?

 

[Meriweather]

I think you are far too enamored of that interpretation of the word earn.

And think you are determined to use the word 'earn' when the definition does not fit. You might want to think about that.

 

[Meriweather]

This is all in the light of purgatory, where you say we are purified. What kind of purification is going on? Let's start there.

Does the purification involve God changing your heart, or does it involve you doing things to meet certain standards God places in front of you?

All we know of purgatory is that it is a place/final process of purification (cleansing) before entering the presence of God.

 

[Ace Nova]

This could be true - if you believe the path to salvation is only through your Church, who can prove you wrong?

And if you do not know - why would you dare to put The LORD, your God, to the test?

 

[hadit]

Was there a contract/agreement between you? Or, did you give him respect?

I gave it to him because he earned it by being worthy of respect.

 

[hadit]

It's not mercenary. It is the definition between 'earn' and 'give'. Why do you think people should receive a reward for losing weight?

They deserve the satisfaction they feel and the health benefits they gain.

 

[Hafar1014]

Thank god Im not Catholic

 

[hadit]

All we know of purgatory is that it is a place/final process of purification (cleansing) before entering the presence of God.

What kind of purification happens and how much depends on your own efforts? As I've asked, does your sin nature follow you into purgatory, pulling you back into the sin you are striving to leave behind, or are you purified from it and left sinless like Mary was?

 

[Meriweather]

I gave it to him because he earned it by being worthy of respect.

When did you give it to him? What made you decide he was worthy of your respect?

The reason I am so puzzled is that I always loved and respected my parents. All they had to be was themselves--they didn't have to do anything to earn either my love or my respect.

The same is true for every other person I have met in this life. I was taught we all have the divine spark within us, as such, we should treat everyone as we would if we came across Jesus or an angel unaware.

By the same token, if we wouldn't want to come to the wedding feast dressed in anything less than a wedding garment, why would we want our own behavior any less than what is deserving of God?

They deserve the satisfaction they feel and the health benefits they gain.

Why?

 

[Meriweather]

What kind of purification happens and how much depends on your own efforts? As I've asked, does your sin nature follow you into purgatory, pulling you back into the sin you are striving to leave behind, or are you purified from it and left sinless like Mary was?

I'll reiterate: We don't know what this purification consists of. What does foregoing a bad habit in this life entail?

 

[hadit]

When did you give it to him? What made you decide he was worthy of your respect?

From childhood.

The reason I am so puzzled is that I always loved and respected my parents. All they had to be was themselves--they didn't have to do anything to earn either my love or my respect.

The same is true for every other person I have met in this life. I was taught we all have the divine spark within us, as such, we should treat everyone as we would if we came across Jesus or an angel unaware.

By the same token, if we wouldn't want to come to the wedding feast dressed in anything less than a wedding garment, why would we want our own behavior any less than what is deserving of God?

Which is why I trust Him to give me the appropriate clothing. My own efforts to cleanse myself are as filthy rags, worthless.

Why?

If I tried to stand before God clothed in my own efforts, I would be ashamed.

 

[hadit]

I'll reiterate: We don't know what this purification consists of. What does foregoing a bad habit in this life entail?

For a drug addict, it can entail quite a lot of pain, suffering, nausea, etc. For someone trying to stop biting their fingernails, not much at all. Sin is not a bad habit, it is rebellion against God. What is involved in shedding yourself of that? Can you do that on your own if your sin nature is still there, pushing you to rebel?

What about the testimony of the saints who claim there is fire and suffering? Are you avoiding them because you don't want to agree with them or because you think they're wrong and don't want to put yourself in that position?

 

[Meriweather]

From childhood.

Which is why I trust Him to give me the appropriate clothing. My own efforts to cleanse myself are as filthy rags, worthless.

If I tried to stand before God clothed in my own efforts, I would be ashamed.

I don't get any of this. You should be able to remember the day you decided you had love or respect for someone if they were doing all they could to earn your love and respect. When did they measure up to your specifications?

Second, God knows who we are and everything about us. Don't our daily prayers involve confessing sins and asking God for his help and his grace to overcome the shortcomings the both of you know that you have? God's love for us is no less because we are not perfect. Paul was weak, but God told Paul that Paul was fine with that weakness, that God's own grace would get him through his trials despite that weakness.

God does not despise our efforts, not when we invite him into them and then use those efforts and his grace to serve him.

All God's graces belong to him. He doesn't give them to us for us to not use them or return them to him, multiplied. Again, reference the Parable of the Talents.

 

[Meriweather]

For a drug addict, it can entail quite a lot of pain, suffering, nausea, etc. For someone trying to stop biting their fingernails, not much at all. Sin is not a bad habit, it is rebellion against God. What is involved in shedding yourself of that? Can you do that on your own if your sin nature is still there, pushing you to rebel?

What about the testimony of the saints who claim there is fire and suffering? Are you avoiding them because you don't want to agree with them or because you think they're wrong and don't want to put yourself in that position?

Are you saying what about people who go through this life refusing God's grace and insist on setting their hearts against God? That's their choice. God's grace is in abundance if they should choose to request it one day.

Do you have a Saint in mind? I'd have to study that Saint. The Saint I recall that was given a vision of hell was that it was reptilian--a very small place to be. Off hand, I don't recall her talking about purgatory. Were the Saints you are thinking of using fire as an allegory? (Fire would hurt our physical bodies, but I am unclear how fire can hurt someone with no body, only spirit.)

 

[hadit]

I don't get any of this. You should be able to remember the day you decided you had love or respect for someone if they were doing all they could to earn your love and respect. When did they measure up to your specifications?

Second, God knows who we are and everything about us. Don't our daily prayers involve confessing sins and asking God for his help and his grace to overcome the shortcomings the both of you know that you have? God's love for us is no less because we are not perfect. Paul was weak, but God told Paul that Paul was fine with that weakness, that God's own grace would get him through his trials despite that weakness.

God does not despise our efforts, not when we invite him into them and then use those efforts and his grace to serve him.

All God's graces belong to him. He doesn't give them to us for us to not use them or return them to him, multiplied. Again, reference the Parable of the Talents.

I see what you are saying and don't disagree. I'm just acknowledging that while my own efforts cannot cleanse me of sin, they demonstrate where my heart and my faith is placed. I do everything I can because of the love and gratitude for what Christ has done for me.

 

[hadit]

Are you saying what about people who go through this life refusing God's grace and insist on setting their hearts against God? That's their choice. God's grace is in abundance if they should choose to request it one day.

Do you have a Saint in mind? I'd have to study that Saint. The Saint I recall that was given a vision of hell was that it was reptilian--a very small place to be. Off hand, I don't recall her talking about purgatory. Were the Saints you are thinking of using fire as an allegory? (Fire would hurt our physical bodies, but I am unclear how fire can hurt someone with no body, only spirit.)

I'll repost what I said in post#157 about St. Catherine of Genoa and St Catherine of Ricci:

St. Catherine of Genoa, who is said to have suffered the pain of purgatory on earth, claimed “there is in purgatory as much pain as in hell” (Treatise on Purgatory). Like the damned, souls there suffer hunger for the God they don’t yet see—like a man who could live without eating, hungering more and more for the bread he doesn’t have (to use St. Catherine’s image). And they suffer from fire that “will be more painful than anything man can suffer in the present life” (St. Augustine, On Psalm 37:3).

Once St. Catherine of Ricci is said to have suffered 40 days for a soul in Purgatory—when a novice touched her hand, she remarked, “Mother, you are burning!”


At the same time, St. Catherine of Genoa also taught, “Souls in purgatory unite great joy with great suffering … No peace is comparable to that of the souls in purgatory, except that of the saints in heaven.”

There’s a mysterious ebb and flow of pain and joy in Purgatory, says the Dominican Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, because the suffering is temporary and leads to heaven: The more the soul loves God, the more it suffers not seeing Him; the more if suffers, the more joy and love it has in drawing closer to God.

The saints tell us what Purgatory is actually like

 

[Meriweather]

I see what you are saying and don't disagree. I'm just acknowledging that while my own efforts cannot cleanse me of sin, they demonstrate where my heart and my faith is placed. I do everything I can because of the love and gratitude for what Christ has done for me.

Do you believe that everything in this world belongs to God? Should the attitude be, I just let God take care of everything, it's his responsibility? Or, is the better attitude one of awe and gratitude of being able to offer, with his grace, our own service? There is no earning involved because even if there were, that "earning" already belongs to God. God offers the world so much. What are we offering back to God? Merely what is already his, but he has asked for our touch. For me, that is awe, being able to contribute to God's creation and God's plans.

Otherwise...it's too much like someone saying, "You're just in the way. I'll do all it myself." The great grandeur of God is that he invites us into the process to the extent we want to, are capable of, contributing. When we get it all wrong? God's word to Paul: Never mind your weakness/failure. It's still enough for me to work with.