The Trinity - 1 Yet 3 - Makes Human Family-Love-Relationships Possible

[Meriweather]

There exists no empirical evidence

Correct. Until one can get past that, there is nothing to discuss. It is like going to a donut shop and wanting the baker to cut your hair. With cream cheese frosting.

Seek God first.

 

[Hollie]

There exists no empirical evidence

Correct. Until one can get past that, there is nothing to discuss. It is like going to a donut shop and wanting the baker to cut your hair. With cream cheese frosting.

Seek God first.

Am I allowed to seek my own fetching, designer God? You suggest I seek God but I have no vision of seeking the Christian God or one of more other Gods. Are the Gods going to improve my life?

 

[.oldschool]

There is no intrinsic manifestation of God.

Does the Angel of the Lord qualify?

 

[Meriweather]

Am I allowed to seek my own fetching, designer God?

Picture someone wanting to know you. Should they seek you or their own fetching, designer you?

 

[Meriweather]

You suggest I seek God but I have no vision of seeking the Christian God or one of more other Gods.

Seek the God of all.

 

[Meriweather]

Are the Gods going to improve my life?

No. God is not here to serve you or to be anyone's Genii. You are either interested in working with/for Him, or you are not. While not exact, it's better to think in terms of being a job applicant.

Here I am, Lord. Send me.

 

[Indeependent]

There is no intrinsic manifestation of God.

Does the Angel of the Lord qualify?

I am the husband of my wife so there is nothing wrong with an Angel of the Lord.
The Hebrew word for Angel is M'loch, which means Guide.

 

[.oldschool]

It does, however, say that God is creator, Redeemer, and mediator - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My own personal take on scripture as a non religious person.

Father = God

Son = Genesis 2 : And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and
He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

Holy Spirit = Genesis 1 : And God created man in His image; in the image of
God He created him; male and female He created them.

 

[norwegen]

Well, hold on.

Does the Bible say creator, Redeemer, and mediator or does it say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yes

If the Bible doesn't say that God is three persons in one, where does it say that God, his son and the Holy Spirit are one God?

The Son and the Father are one (Jn 10:30), and the Holy Spirit is included in that union (Jn 13:20).

 

[norwegen]

It does, however, say that God is creator, Redeemer, and mediator - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My own personal take on scripture as a non religious person.

Father = God

Son = Genesis 2 : And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and
He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

Holy Spirit = Genesis 1 : And God created man in His image; in the image of
God He created him; male and female He created them.

Yes, man became a living creature when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. That's where life is - in God; it is not in the flesh.

That God created man in His image is a proleptic sort of statement. Chapter 1 says God created man (and the plan for other things on specific days), and Chapter 2 describes the creation. And in the garden, man did bear God's image. Not so after his fall from grace. All the drama in the Old Testament - the violence, drunkenness, incest, idolatry, etc. - was not of a people bearing God's image.

Man bears God's image now, of course, because Christ reconciled God and man. That was Christ's mission; that was the gospel. He was sent for the express purpose of establishing that kingdom.

 

[Hollie]

Well, hold on.

Does the Bible say creator, Redeemer, and mediator or does it say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yes

If the Bible doesn't say that God is three persons in one, where does it say that God, his son and the Holy Spirit are one God?

The Son and the Father are one (Jn 10:30), and the Holy Spirit is included in that union (Jn 13:20).

I was hesitant to address the above because ultimately, the arguments about intent and interpretation revolve around hearsay accounts by writers largely unknown with no way to corroborate any of the events.

I suppose a translation of 10:30 could suggest that Jesus is God but that presents some obvious problems with Jesus as the son of God.

13:20 (NIV), makes no mention of a Holy Spirit.
13:20 “... anyone who receives me receives the One who sent me.”

If someone sent Jesus, did God send himself as Jesus?

 

[norwegen]

13:20 (NIV), makes no mention of a Holy Spirit.
13:20 “... anyone who receives me receives the One who sent me.”

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me."

 

[Hollie]

13:20 (NIV), makes no mention of a Holy Spirit.
13:20 “... anyone who receives me receives the One who sent me.”

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me."

That’s fine. I will step back from arguing about such accounts.

 

[Hollie]

Are the Gods going to improve my life?

No. God is not here to serve you or to be anyone's Genii. You are either interested in working with/for Him, or you are not. While not exact, it's better to think in terms of being a job applicant.

Here I am, Lord. Send me.

I suppose the first point I should make is that I define these discussions of gods as not discussing atheism v. theism but discussing philosophy. Believers claim countless scientific and logical "proofs" for the existence of their particular God(s) and oddly, the same scientific and logical "proofs" are applied to all versions of the Gods. I question why that is the case. This is not a philosophical/theological question. It is purely a logical one.

I note that you assign a personality and a character to your God by suggesting “working with him”. You are insisting on assigning particular examples of “God’s characteristics.” Your personal experiences with Gods are not mine. While some may claim to experience the corporeal interference of various Gods in their decision making, that leaves me to question just how many Gods are extant as believers in Gods competing with yours claim similar experiences, just with different Gods.

Regarding my upcoming application to work for the Gods, what would be missing in that application are my reasons for wanting to work there. Overwhelmingly, my experience with believers is that they a) believe for rather inconsequential reasons; it’s their family tradition, or b) the gods assuage their fears; fear of dying, fear of the unknown, fears about dealing with difficult events in their lives. IMHO, the “search for meaning” is at the heart of the religious impulse. We are driven by the despair of a sometimes cruel existence to generate meaning and purpose for ourselves. I think this is all the result of the unavoidable psychological conflict between our basic instinct for survival and the intellectual realization of our own mortality. We find meaning in self transcendent acts and concepts. By reaching out beyond ourselves to find connections to larger communities and realities we somehow escape our own mortalities, at least symbolically.

 

[Meriweather]

I suppose the first point I should make is that I define these discussions of gods as not discussing atheism v. theism but discussing philosophy. Believers claim countless scientific and logical "proofs" for the existence of their particular God(s) and oddly, the same scientific and logical "proofs" are applied to all versions of the Gods. I question why that is the case. This is not a philosophical/theological question. It is purely a logical one.

I note that you assign a personality and a character to your God by suggesting “working with him”. You are insisting on assigning particular examples of “God’s characteristics.” Your personal experiences with Gods are not mine. While some may claim to experience the corporeal interference of various Gods in their decision making, that leaves me to question just how many Gods are extant as believers in Gods competing with yours claim similar experiences, just with different Gods.

You gave an example of making things too complicated (going around the elbow to get to the thumb).

Do not think of it as assigning God anything. First one needs to know God, then comes love, then comes service. This is merely describing the relationship, no need to expand on it or leap to any conclusions about God. Know Him first.

Biblical advice: Don't go searching for something big and powerful; don't go searching after idols; don't go searching after other gods of which you may have heard. Search the quiet.

 

[Meriweather]

Regarding my upcoming application to work for the Gods, what would be missing in that application are my reasons for wanting to work there. Overwhelmingly, my experience with believers is that they a) believe for rather inconsequential reasons; it’s their family tradition, or b) the gods assuage their fears; fear of dying, fear of the unknown, fears about dealing with difficult events in their lives. IMHO, the “search for meaning” is at the heart of the religious impulse. We are driven by the despair of a sometimes cruel existence to generate meaning and purpose for ourselves. I think this is all the result of the unavoidable psychological conflict between our basic instinct for survival and the intellectual realization of our own mortality. We find meaning in self transcendent acts and concepts. By reaching out beyond ourselves to find connections to larger communities and realities we somehow escape our own mortalities, at least symbolically.

Hollie, you have stepped onto the front porch and now believe you have extensive knowledge of the mansion, all its rooms, all that each room holds. Go beyond what you imagine are the reasons of others. There are many people who remain on the front porch.

I started with seeking God, but Hebrew scripture suggests starting with God's laws. One direction starts with God and leads to His laws; the other starts with His law and leads to God. The first three Laws start with describing the relationship with God; the others, our relationship with our fellow man.

 

[Hollie]

I suppose the first point I should make is that I define these discussions of gods as not discussing atheism v. theism but discussing philosophy. Believers claim countless scientific and logical "proofs" for the existence of their particular God(s) and oddly, the same scientific and logical "proofs" are applied to all versions of the Gods. I question why that is the case. This is not a philosophical/theological question. It is purely a logical one.

I note that you assign a personality and a character to your God by suggesting “working with him”. You are insisting on assigning particular examples of “God’s characteristics.” Your personal experiences with Gods are not mine. While some may claim to experience the corporeal interference of various Gods in their decision making, that leaves me to question just how many Gods are extant as believers in Gods competing with yours claim similar experiences, just with different Gods.

You gave an example of making things too complicated (going around the elbow to get to the thumb).

Do not think of it as assigning God anything. First one needs to know God, then comes love, then comes service. This is merely describing the relationship, no need to expand on it or leap to any conclusions about God. Know Him first.

Biblical advice: Don't go searching for something big and powerful; don't go searching after idols; don't go searching after other gods of which you may have heard. Search the quiet.

I wouldn't say I'm complicating things. I reserve a right to ask questions and to examine the responses. In terms of knowing Gods, there are lots of people who will claim to know the Gods' will / intent and claim to be true arbiters of such knowledge.

To know the Gods would be to understand their communications with humans. Those communications are in the form of various books written by men on behalf of the Gods. That's a legitimate description because we know of no Gods delivering a complete manuscript to humanity. We know that events surrounding Jesus, according to some, God in human form, were written by unknown authors decades and more after his death. Once again, we are left, apparently, to pick and choose which pieces of various holy texts we are accept or reject.

 

[Meriweather]

I wouldn't say I'm complicating things. I reserve a right to ask questions and to examine the responses. In terms of knowing Gods, there are lots of people who will claim to know the Gods' will / intent and claim to be true arbiters of such knowledge.

That's like asking those who have eaten a dish you have heard about to come up with the recipe. Seek God, not His followers.

 

[Meriweather]

To know the Gods would be to understand their communications with humans. Those communications are in the form of various books written by men on behalf of the Gods. That's a legitimate description because we know of no Gods delivering a complete manuscript to humanity. We know that events surrounding Jesus, according to some, God in human form, were written by unknown authors decades and more after his death. Once again, we are left, apparently, to pick and choose which pieces of various holy texts we are accept or reject.

Seek God, not information about God.

 

[Hollie]

Regarding my upcoming application to work for the Gods, what would be missing in that application are my reasons for wanting to work there. Overwhelmingly, my experience with believers is that they a) believe for rather inconsequential reasons; it’s their family tradition, or b) the gods assuage their fears; fear of dying, fear of the unknown, fears about dealing with difficult events in their lives. IMHO, the “search for meaning” is at the heart of the religious impulse. We are driven by the despair of a sometimes cruel existence to generate meaning and purpose for ourselves. I think this is all the result of the unavoidable psychological conflict between our basic instinct for survival and the intellectual realization of our own mortality. We find meaning in self transcendent acts and concepts. By reaching out beyond ourselves to find connections to larger communities and realities we somehow escape our own mortalities, at least symbolically.

Hollie, you have stepped onto the front porch and now believe you have extensive knowledge of the mansion, all its rooms, all that each room holds. Go beyond what you imagine are the reasons of others. There are many people who remain on the front porch.

I started with seeking God, but Hebrew scripture suggests starting with God's laws. One direction starts with God and leads to His laws; the other starts with His law and leads to God. The first three Laws start with describing the relationship with God; the others, our relationship with our fellow man.

I will establish my relationship with the Gods as one of benign neglect, hold harmless or at least one in which we allow each other freedom of choice and assuming responsibility for outcome. Yes, the notion of eternal life is seductive and appeals to human emotion but decisions based on emotion are often fraught with error. My ''personality'' or ''spirit'' living forever in some form of existence seems improbable and while being an attractive 'hook' is suspect as it comes with a number of conditions imposed by the Gods which actually appear to be the kind of coercion that humans would use to offer a bargain with little room for negotiation .