The Bible Tells Us When Jesus Returns - Between Tisha B'Av and Day of Atonement 2029

[teddyearp]

Pasture, I have a simple question for you.

What will bring you more joy when you get to heaven. To see myself, maxgrit, and others burning in Hell or to find out that we were Christians all along and in heaven with you?

Short answer please.

I'm sorry, I misspelled your username. Parture are you going to answer this simple question with a simple answer?

 

[emilynghiem]

Pasture, I have a simple question for you.

What will bring you more joy when you get to heaven. To see myself, maxgrit, and others burning in Hell or to find out that we were Christians all along and in heaven with you?

Short answer please.

I'm sorry, I misspelled your username. Parture are you going to answer this simple question with a simple answer?

Dear teddyearp and Parture:
I would like an answer to TY's question
Which would bring more joy or glory to you and God
1. if those you accuse burn in hell for being wrong
2. if we turn out to be right, and because we forgive each other in Christ Jesus
despite being right or wrong, then we end up in heaven together

Parture the most amazing thing I have discovered in Christianity
is that it was more important what we FORGIVE and the degree to which we FORGIVE
rather than the right or wrong that was the issue.

God can fix what we FORGIVE and agree to hand over to God to fix.
But until we agree to forgive, we block God's will from entering so this hinders healing and correction

So for TY question, for the purpose of 'establishing truth'
and restoring "good faith relations between neighbors in Christ"
(by Matthew 18:15-20)
Can you please answer or explain TY question
or can you move this over to the Bullring if you want to challenge each other.

Either way, it should be in the spirit of forgiveness and correction in Christ Jesus,
and God's will and truth will be invoked by believers in agreement. Thank you!

 

[Parture]

Pasture, I have a simple question for you.

What will bring you more joy when you get to heaven. To see myself, maxgrit, and others burning in Hell or to find out that we were Christians all along and in heaven with you?

Short answer please.

I'm sorry, I misspelled your username. Parture are you going to answer this simple question with a simple answer?

Dear teddyearp and Parture:
I would like an answer to TY's question
Which would bring more joy or glory to you and God
1. if those you accuse burn in hell for being wrong
2. if we turn out to be right, and because we forgive each other in Christ Jesus
despite being right or wrong, then we end up in heaven together

Parture the most amazing thing I have discovered in Christianity
is that it was more important what we FORGIVE and the degree to which we FORGIVE
rather than the right or wrong that was the issue.

God can fix what we FORGIVE and agree to hand over to God to fix.
But until we agree to forgive, we block God's will from entering so this hinders healing and correction

So for TY question, for the purpose of 'establishing truth'
and restoring "good faith relations between neighbors in Christ"
(by Matthew 18:15-20)
Can you please answer or explain TY question
or can you move this over to the Bullring if you want to challenge each other.

Either way, it should be in the spirit of forgiveness and correction in Christ Jesus,
and God's will and truth will be invoked by believers in agreement. Thank you!

Unless you accept who Jesus truly is that He is God the Son and died on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosoever believes in Him, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

[Jhn 3:15-21 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Parture]

Pasture, I have a simple question for you.

What will bring you more joy when you get to heaven. To see myself, maxgrit, and others burning in Hell or to find out that we were Christians all along and in heaven with you?

Short answer please.

I'm sorry, I misspelled your username. Parture are you going to answer this simple question with a simple answer?

I know MaxGrit is not a Christian because he is a Calvinist, and I won't see him in heaven for by that time not only will I not see him because he is in Hell, but he will be forgotten as well. It is better that he go to Hell, because he is too toxic for Heaven, unhealthy to be around. There is no sin and no Calvinism in Heaven. Nobody in Heaven is irresistibly selected. We all came to the cross genuinely.

Let me help you see if you are a Christian. Answer these questions at registration and I will give you some advice. Think of it as Biblical Psychology. A free counseling session,

Register at Christian Forums

 

[emilynghiem]

Unless you accept who Jesus truly is that He is God the Son and died on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosoever believes in Him, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

[Jhn 3:15-21 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We agree on this.
What we didn't agree on is that I was saying
all sins CAN be forgiven in Christ so there CAN be universal salvation.

And you were saying that Universal Salvation is not possible
and that means I am going to hell by teaching something not in scripture.

So what I said was Unforgiveness is what causes people to go to hell.

 

[emilynghiem]

I know MaxGrit is not a Christian because he is a Calvinist, and I won't see him in heaven for by that time not only will I not see him because he is in Hell, but he will be forgotten as well. It is better that he go to Hell, because he is too toxic for Heaven, unhealthy to be around. There is no sin and no Calvinism in Heaven. Nobody in Heaven is irresistibly selected. We all came to the cross genuinely.

Let me help you see if you are a Christian. Answer these questions at registration and I will give you some advice. Think of it as Biblical Psychology. A free counseling session,

Register at Christian Forums

Hi Parture
We are to call no man Father except our God in heaven.
This was to prevent people from judging one another based on who from what family line.
Can you see where it applies to family lines in the larger sense?

Jesus is Lord of all lords, so even the laws of the Calvinists must submit to Jesus authority.

Would you judge someone as less of a Constitutionalist
because they come from California than Texas? Some Constitutionalists may well
come from California and be under California law. Some people from Texas
may not be conservative or Constitutionalists as you might assume from cultural associations.

How can we judge by label?
You are fine if you stick to content and show where that is lacking
But again the purpose should be for correction in Christ, to restore truth between neighbors,
especially where we all claim to be believers.

Also remember when Jesus used the "unholy" Samaritan
as the example of who turned out to be our neighbor in Christ?

Parture I even know a Gay Atheist
who teaches forgiveness and abundance of grace
to help people let go and receive understanding and healing.
He does not call this God or Christ Jesus.
But the message and healing of Restorative Justice
can only come from God through Christ so it has to be the same spirit
or it doesn't work. Only unconditional forgiveness heals the heart and mind.
And that is what Christ Jesus represents uniquely, that spirit for all humanity.

So if I even know Atheists who are neighbors in Christ,
surely we can have Calvinists and Jehovah Witnesses,
Mormons and other off shoot groups who can be our neighbors in Christ.

What makes the difference?
If we FORGIVE and RECEIVE one another in the spirit of Christ.

Parture if they reject us as children of God, there is nothing we can do
if they cannot forgive and receive us.

All we can do is forgive and receive them so that God may
correct and heal our relations to make us whole, make us one in Christ.

We can best influence and bring in God's correction
by RECEIVING by forgiving, not judging or rejecting which shuts down
the relations instead of giving this to God through Christ to establish truth therein.

 

[Parture]

I know MaxGrit is not a Christian because he is a Calvinist, and I won't see him in heaven for by that time not only will I not see him because he is in Hell, but he will be forgotten as well. It is better that he go to Hell, because he is too toxic for Heaven, unhealthy to be around. There is no sin and no Calvinism in Heaven. Nobody in Heaven is irresistibly selected. We all came to the cross genuinely.

Let me help you see if you are a Christian. Answer these questions at registration and I will give you some advice. Think of it as Biblical Psychology. A free counseling session,

Register at Christian Forums

Hi Parture
We are to call no man Father except our God in heaven.
This was to prevent people from judging one another based on who from what family line.
Can you see where it applies to family lines in the larger sense?

Jesus is Lord of all lords, so even the laws of the Calvinists must submit to Jesus authority.

Would you judge someone as less of a Constitutionalist
because they come from California than Texas? Some Constitutionalists may well
come from California and be under California law. Some people from Texas
may not be conservative or Constitutionalists as you might assume from cultural associations.

How can we judge by label?
You are fine if you stick to content and show where that is lacking
But again the purpose should be for correction in Christ, to restore truth between neighbors,
especially where we all claim to be believers.

Also remember when Jesus used the "unholy" Samaritan
as the example of who turned out to be our neighbor in Christ?

Parture I even know a Gay Atheist
who teaches forgiveness and abundance of grace
to help people let go and receive understanding and healing.
He does not call this God or Christ Jesus.
But the message and healing of Restorative Justice
can only come from God through Christ so it has to be the same spirit
or it doesn't work. Only unconditional forgiveness heals the heart and mind.
And that is what Christ Jesus represents uniquely, that spirit for all humanity.

So if I even know Atheists who are neighbors in Christ,
surely we can have Calvinists and Jehovah Witnesses,
Mormons and other off shoot groups who can be our neighbors in Christ.

What makes the difference?
If we FORGIVE and RECEIVE one another in the spirit of Christ.

Parture if they reject us as children of God, there is nothing we can do
if they cannot forgive and receive us.

All we can do is forgive and receive them so that God may
correct and heal our relations to make us whole, make us one in Christ.

We can best influence and bring in God's correction
by RECEIVING by forgiving, not judging or rejecting which shuts down
the relations instead of giving this to God through Christ to establish truth therein.

In order to be saved only God can forgive sins for salvation. So unless you accept what God the Son did for you on the cross, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

 

[Parture]

Unless you accept who Jesus truly is that He is God the Son and died on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosoever believes in Him, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

[Jhn 3:15-21 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We agree on this.
What we didn't agree on is that I was saying
all sins CAN be forgiven in Christ so there CAN be universal salvation.

And you were saying that Universal Salvation is not possible
and that means I am going to hell by teaching something not in scripture.

So what I said was Unforgiveness is what causes people to go to hell.

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

 

[emilynghiem]

In order to be saved only God can forgive sins for salvation. So unless you accept what God the Son did for you on the cross, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

Yes, and the most we can do to "let God in" to do the healing correction and salvation
is to FORGIVE so that we agree to let God's will be done.

We don't try to "dictate" this by declaring and assuming 'which people or sins are unforgivable and will lead to hell'
We leave that to God.

The only sin otherwise is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The sin of unforgiveness.

We cannot help if people cannot forgive something.
We can only forgive that ourselves in order to ask God's help to intervene and correct or heal what is wrong.

So forgiving where we disagree with Calvinists or Jehovah's Witnesses
is part of the process of LETTING GOD IN to do the corrections we cannot do.

We hand these over to God by forgiving what we cannot change.
By asking God's help that is agreeing in Christ that we submit our will to God so God can intervene.

 

[emilynghiem]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

So if I can come to an understanding that the process of Salvation and Restorative Justice in the Bible is true
and universal for all people, then ANYONE can come to an agreed understanding of Christ Jesus.

It is so universal, everyone can get there, by forgiving and receiving.
I was just trying to resolve my personal relationships that required forgiveness.
And by opening that door, this connected with the prayers of all people praying
in Christ Jesus for healing and restoration. So everyone I know is going through
a process of trying to correct, heal and restore relations. So eventually all will
be healed and restored in the spirit of truth, justice and peace which is represented in the
Holy Trinity.

All of humanity is headed there. If i got there by just trying to fix problems in my life,
everyone else is doing that, so everyone will eventually get there, by trial and error,
when nothing else works but forgiving so that God can correct all things.

 

[Parture]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

So if I can come to an understanding that the process of Salvation and Restorative Justice in the Bible is true
and universal for all people, then ANYONE can come to an agreed understanding of Christ Jesus.

It is so universal, everyone can get there, by forgiving and receiving.
I was just trying to resolve my personal relationships that required forgiveness.
And by opening that door, this connected with the prayers of all people praying
in Christ Jesus for healing and restoration. So everyone I know is going through
a process of trying to correct, heal and restore relations. So eventually all will
be healed and restored in the spirit of truth, justice and peace which is represented in the
Holy Trinity.

All of humanity is headed there. If i got there by just trying to fix problems in my life,
everyone else is doing that, so everyone will eventually get there, by trial and error,
when nothing else works but forgiving so that God can correct all things.

Satan put you through the process of everyone saved. Not God. Don't you realize you will forever reject the God who gives free will to reject Him forever as some do, including 1/3 fallen angels and the demons. Satan, Antichrist, Judas, Nero and False Prophet will never repent. They took it to their graves.

 

[MaxGrit]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

 

[Parture]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

 

[MaxGrit]

It's the same concept stated differently. God preserve the saints by the Holy Spirit, the saints persevere by the Holy Spirit.

Same concept.

 

[Parture]

It's the same concept stated differently. God preserve the saints by the Holy Spirit, the saints persevere by the Holy Spirit.

Same concept.

Think for yourself. Why do OSAS Arminians have the 5th point as "preservation of the saints" while Calvinists have "perseverance of the saints"! First off "persevering" is a harder term in itself than "being preserved." The latter is much softer in tone. The reason is because when Christians gave their lives to Christ it was not just be regenerated but to be kept as we can't keep ourselves saved.

Whereas in Calvinism there is this persevering factor that is thrown onto you because you are allegedly irresistibly selected. As this god behaves so do you. The bottom line is OSAS Arminians fulfilled the requisite condition of repenting and believe on Him to be regenerated, but the Calvinist has not, for he admits instead of believing to be saved, he was first regenerated that made him like a robot to believe. The question is what is he really believing in? How sincere is that to prop yourself up on a pedestal to declare you were irresistibly selected? Sounds fake! A god who forces love on people or passes them over to be preterioned for Hell with no opportunity for salvation is a Satanic god. What love is that?

Saints do not persevere to be saved. We in Christ persevere to overcometh and unto rewards. That is far different. No amount of persevering can get one saved; nor can it lose one his salvation if he is already born-again. Typically Calvinists have no sense of this because they are amillennial usually. Whereas premillennials appreciate the fact that only if a believer overcometh in due time will he or she receive the reward of the first rapture (if alive at the time) and return with Christ to reign over the nations for 1000 years.

It is unclear what the Calvinist is persevering for, because there are no rewards in heaven. In Heaven reward are done away with, and there is no millennial kingdom in Calvinism usually. For example amillennialism came about from Augustine who is a Calvinist when before him there were just Chiliasts otherwise known as premillennial Christians. Calvin was amillennial too, often referred to as the "murderous Protestant Pope of Geneva" acting in the same spirit of his Roman Catholic Inquisition brethren.

 

[emilynghiem]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's the same concept stated differently. God preserve the saints by the Holy Spirit, the saints persevere by the Holy Spirit.

Same concept.

Okay so this has to do with how the HolySpirit manifests in relationships among man.

I think what some of the concern may be
is if the action and will is coming FROM God/HolySpirit as a result of Saving grace
or if you are adding manmade conditions or works as requirements on the
salvation process, if you are trying to dictate or will a manmade condition
from your own religious constructs outside the Bible.

BTW MaxGrit
with the Hindu representation of the Trinity
* Brahma is Creator
* Shiva is the Destroyer of Evil
* Vishnu is the Preserver of Peace

So if it is true that Christ Jesus fulfills all the laws
and unites all the tribes as one, then the Holy
Trinity should also fulfill this trinity as given in Hindu teachings.

If people are teaching them as in conflict, that cannot be coming from the same God.

But if they recognize there can only be one God although expressed in different laws,
then Christ can be received as fulfilling them equally.

 

[Parture]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated. There is no Triune God in other religions, and Hinduism and Islam teach salvation by works; whereas the Bible teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. Understand that gap between you and God for reconciliation is infinite, and not in Hinduism or Islam does God love you because God enters His creation to atone for your sins that only He has the authority to pay to save you from Hell, sin, Satan and self.

 

[emilynghiem]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

 

[Parture]

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).