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Scriptures that pertain to a place of purgation (Purgatory)

rightnow909

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There is 1 Cor 3:15 which speaks of how, if a Christian's work for the Lord is not perfect, he will be saved, "yet as through fire"

Then there is St Paul who said that "we must undergo many difficulties in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

There is Mt 18:23 (I believe it is ) that tells a parable by Jesus about a man who was forgiven his entire debt (Protestants would say he had been born again) but then he refused to forgive someone who owed him considerably less than he had owed "his master." The master of course is God. So this person who had "been saved" (this is also a psg against Once Saved Always Saved) now once again incurred the debt he had before. And he would not get out of what I will call debtor's prison "until he had paid back all."

Some scholars have said this is in reference to Hell and it very well may be.. but it could about Purgatory OR both... I tend to think both... some say it is about Hell because we humans can NEVER pay back to God what we owe.

some focus on the word Until... he is handed over to the torturers UNTIL..... he pays back the debt
 

ReinyDays

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Wow ... I have never heard this line of reasoning out of this particular passage ... 1 Cor 3:15 ... if your spiritual building is built upon the stone foundation of Christ, then even if your spiritual building should burn down, your foundation will remain to be built upon again ... and this moves into the foolishness of worldly wisdom ...
 

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There is 1 Cor 3:15 which speaks of how, if a Christian's work for the Lord is not perfect, he will be saved, "yet as through fire"

Then there is St Paul who said that "we must undergo many difficulties in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

There is Mt 18:23 (I believe it is ) that tells a parable by Jesus about a man who was forgiven his entire debt (Protestants would say he had been born again) but then he refused to forgive someone who owed him considerably less than he had owed "his master." The master of course is God. So this person who had "been saved" (this is also a psg against Once Saved Always Saved) now once again incurred the debt he had before. And he would not get out of what I will call debtor's prison "until he had paid back all."

Some scholars have said this is in reference to Hell and it very well may be.. but it could about Purgatory OR both... I tend to think both... some say it is about Hell because we humans can NEVER pay back to God what we owe.

some focus on the word Until... he is handed over to the torturers UNTIL..... he pays back the debt
The Lords Prayer says
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
Seems forgiveness of others is a key point that many get stuck on. Everybody wants to be forgiven when they screw up but far fewer seem capable of the same attitude towards others who have screwed up.
I think God is flat out telling us, if you want me to forgive you, you better not hold grudges against people asking for forgiveness.
The whole "once saved, always saved" thing is bunk IMO, at least in the way most people see it.
You can't go from being saved, to a life of evil & expect a get out of hell free card. If you're actually saved, it reflects in the way you live your life
 
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rightnow909

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Wow ... I have never heard this line of reasoning out of this particular passage ... 1 Cor 3:15 ... if your spiritual building is built upon the stone foundation of Christ, then even if your spiritual building should burn down, your foundation will remain to be built upon again ... and this moves into the foolishness of worldly wisdom ...
don't get it

are u saying .. well, u don't say anything about that "yet as through fire " thing so...
 
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rightnow909

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The whole "once saved, always saved" thing is bunk IMO, at least in the way most people see it.
You can't go from being saved, to a life of evil & expect a get out of hell free card. If you're actually saved, it reflects in the way you live your life
yes, it is about forgiveness... which is a process for a lot of us bc some of us have been through nothing short of HELL bc of other people's nastiness and evil

you speak of those who ask for forgiveness but we have to forgive whether it is asked for or not... THAT is the part that's not easy... Some people arevery glad they have harmed someone... couldn't care less.. That kind of evil is hard to deal w/

as to your last part... people on their way to Hell (it seems to me) don't even WANT to get into Heaven... but there are 'christians"who want to but ... as you say, don't want to forgive. they want all of their sins to be as nothing but other people's... forget it.. I have to say I have sometimes been guilty of that kind of thing... but it is so elitist... egoist...
and i repented..
=
 

ReinyDays

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don't get it

are u saying .. well, u don't say anything about that "yet as through fire " thing so...

14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

These two passages seem to go together ... and it's an either/or proposition ... if a man's work abides, or is found worthy, then he is saved by the foundation of Christ ... whereas if a man's work is not found worthy, then let it burn, the salvation is the foundation of Christ ... you're still a loser, but take heart with the foundation you've chosen ...

This is the beginning of this epistle, and I think still in the milquetoast part of the reasoning ... getting them at Cornith ready for the strong meat to follow ... just my take is all ...
 

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Home Content Index Catholicism Catholic Beliefs Purgatory
Question

What does the Bible say about Purgatory?​

video Bible Purgatory
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Answer

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

hqdefault.jpg


Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, silver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
 

ReinyDays

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Home Content Index Catholicism Catholic Beliefs Purgatory
Question

What does the Bible say about Purgatory?​

video Bible Purgatory
audio

Answer

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

hqdefault.jpg


Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, silver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

That's why only Catholic priests get in trouble for having sex with little boys ... Protestant ministers can have all the sex from little boys they want, and just ask forgiveness afterward and all is good ... "work mean nothing" ...

I think that IF one is totally committed to Christ ... THEN their works will be (mostly) good ... as a test, go have sex with dirty women, see how long until you get a nasty VD ... then tell us God doesn't punish inequity ... ha ha ha ...
 
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rightnow909

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14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

These two passages seem to go together ... and it's an either/or proposition ... if a man's work abides, or is found worthy, then he is saved by the foundation of Christ ... whereas if a man's work is not found worthy, then let it burn, the salvation is the foundation of Christ ... you're still a loser, but take heart with the foundation you've chosen ...

This is the beginning of this epistle, and I think still in the milquetoast part of the reasoning ... getting them at Cornith ready for the strong meat to follow ... just my take is all ...
i dont u/stand that last thing but as to what came b4

That's not my take on things exactly but it's close apparently...

It is Christ's work that saves... our work is filthy rags but Jesus accepts it anyway bc He loves unconditionally and forgives unconditionally... but our work is to immerse ourselves in HIM... focus on HIS sacrifice, which is why i love the Sorrowful Mysteries of the rosary.. i sometimes am very reluctant to pray the Sorrowful ones bc I cant stand to see Jesus suffer (one envisions Calvary w/ those mysteries), but a lot of the times I force myself and... well, u know... He is not suffering anymore like that. Now it is we who suffer like that metophorically. And usually once I get going, it is very... words fail but "uplifting" kind of works...
 
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rightnow909

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That's why only Catholic priests get in trouble for having sex with little boys ... Protestant ministers can have all the sex from little boys they want, and just ask forgiveness afterward and all is good ... "work mean nothing" ...

I think that IF one is totally committed to Christ ... THEN their works will be (mostly) good ... as a test, go have sex with dirty women, see how long until you get a nasty VD ... then tell us God doesn't punish inequity ... ha ha ha ...
not sure I get this... but a lot of people make light of sin.. C and P both

that said, Jesus told some Catholic visionary of our day that He forgives (if we come to His Real Presence in the Church) as though we had not committed that sin...

a very wonderful thought. The thing is.. .the sad thing is that most people do not "appreciate" the Real Presence found only in HIS Church.

It is a tangible (real) Presence.. and there is nothing like it on Earth
 
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rightnow909

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Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” .
yes, but we have to APPLY His work on the Cross... we have to access it.. We can't just say Jesus, I accept you and all is honky dory forever and ever while we then go about the worldly affairs we have always been engaged in... doesn't work like that. The world pollutes us and we have to be IN Christ's Presence, his tangible Presence to wash all that tangible filth off our souls..

But being in His Presence is far more... wonderful than those words say..
 

ReinyDays

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i dont u/stand that last thing but as to what came b4

That's not my take on things exactly but it's close apparently...

It is Christ's work that saves... our work is filthy rags but Jesus accepts it anyway bc He loves unconditionally and forgives unconditionally... but our work is to immerse ourselves in HIM... focus on HIS sacrifice, which is why i love the Sorrowful Mysteries of the rosary.. i sometimes am very reluctant to pray the Sorrowful ones bc I cant stand to see Jesus suffer (one envisions Calvary w/ those mysteries), but a lot of the times I force myself and... well, u know... He is not suffering anymore like that. Now it is we who suffer like that metophorically. And usually once I get going, it is very... words fail but "uplifting" kind of works...

I think the passages are just a simple analogy of our physical homes to our spiritual homes ... the foundation can be up to a full third of the cost of a house ... and so it's always best to use Christ as our foundation for our spiritual house ...

I'm not a Catholic, so you'll have to ask a priest ... you'll not get a truthful answer posting on the internet, by definition ...
 

james bond

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There is 1 Cor 3:15 which speaks of how, if a Christian's work for the Lord is not perfect, he will be saved, "yet as through fire"

Then there is St Paul who said that "we must undergo many difficulties in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

There is Mt 18:23 (I believe it is ) that tells a parable by Jesus about a man who was forgiven his entire debt (Protestants would say he had been born again) but then he refused to forgive someone who owed him considerably less than he had owed "his master." The master of course is God. So this person who had "been saved" (this is also a psg against Once Saved Always Saved) now once again incurred the debt he had before. And he would not get out of what I will call debtor's prison "until he had paid back all."

Some scholars have said this is in reference to Hell and it very well may be.. but it could about Purgatory OR both... I tend to think both... some say it is about Hell because we humans can NEVER pay back to God what we owe.

some focus on the word Until... he is handed over to the torturers UNTIL..... he pays back the debt
No purgatory found. Try it.


Your examples are wrong, too.
 
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rightnow909

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I think the passages are just a simple analogy of our physical homes to our spiritual homes ... the foundation can be up to a full third of the cost of a house ... and so it's always best to use Christ as our foundation for our spiritual house ...

I'm not a Catholic, so you'll have to ask a priest ... you'll not get a truthful answer posting on the internet, by definition ...
well, sometimes u get truth on the internet... it helps to know truth from error b4 going around the i-net trying to find truth... and when one does not... well, one should be cautious

I used to believe many lies years ago when I was younger... didn't have a clue that those things really were lies.. until I was older and experienced certain things... Daily Mass (daily Scripture... ) is what helped me most to find Truth...

I am not sure I u/stand what your first sentence says... but I do believe most of the Bible is clear enough for a child of, say 8, to understand... Maybe 20% of it is not... but that's why we need a CHURCH (to show us the Way)

"I will build My Church," Jesus said, "and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." mt 1618
 

ReinyDays

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well, sometimes u get truth on the internet... it helps to know truth from error b4 going around the i-net trying to find truth... and when one does not... well, one should be cautious

I used to believe many lies years ago when I was younger... didn't have a clue that those things really were lies.. until I was older and experienced certain things... Daily Mass (daily Scripture... ) is what helped me most to find Truth...

I am not sure I u/stand what your first sentence says... but I do believe most of the Bible is clear enough for a child of, say 8, to understand... Maybe 20% of it is not... but that's why we need a CHURCH (to show us the Way)

"I will build My Church," Jesus said, "and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." mt 1618

If an eight-year-old can understand the Bible ... why do you need a priest to explain things to you? ...
 

Meriweather

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If an eight-year-old can understand the Bible ... why do you need a priest to explain things to you? ...
Perhaps for something greater than an eight year old's understanding?
 

ReinyDays

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Perhaps for something greater than an eight year old's understanding?

If it takes more than an eight-year-old to understand ... why do you demand infantile baptism? ...

I think the important material in the Bible is for the adults ... the children are given milquetoast, like using a building as an analogue for family as in the OP ... whereas the strong meat is for adults, no one expects a child to fight with Satan for forty days and nights in the wilderness ...

... and don't forget that the word "you" is also used as the second person plural personal pronoun ...
 

Meriweather

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why do you demand infantile baptism? ...
Didn't know I have been demanding it. I do favor it. Baptism is a Sacrament of Initiation into a community and into a way of life. Beyond that, we receive the Holy Spirit and enter into our destiny of priest, prophet, king. It is who we are, who we will become, who we will be, both as an individual and as a member of the community of the Body of Christ.
 

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