Zone1 If all that one knows, believes, & follows is the "Great Commandment", will they go to Heaven?

[BreezeWood]

This is a key difference between Judaism and Christianity.

their preambles are the same including islam - the false commandments of the liar moses ... all three as passengers on the titanic.

the heavenly message of the 1st century events - prematurely concluded by the crucifiers.

 

[ding]

No, I am arguing that God sees our hearts, and you keep going on about doing good deeds and that's how others see us. Can you not even see that we're not disagreeing, but saying two different things?

Exactly as I predicted. You brought up doing good when it suited you and then dismissed it when it didn't.

What I see is the protestant inability to understand that the Catholic view is everything is through the grace of God and that our behaviors are a sign of how that grace manifests itself in us. If you behave poorly as a Christian it's a sign that God's grace has not become manifest. So choose your words and actions carefully.

 

[ding]

their preambles are the same including islam - the false commandments of the liar moses ... all three as passengers on the titanic.

the heavenly message of the 1st century events - prematurely concluded by the crucifiers.

You keep repeating that nonsense but what has YOUR religion done for the world?

 

[Lisa558]

Exactly as I predicted. You brought up doing good when it suited you and then dismissed it when it didn't.

What I see is the protestant inability to understand that the Catholic view is everything is through the grace of God and that our behaviors are a sign of how that grace manifests itself in us. If you behave poorly as a Christian it's a sign that God's grace has not become manifest. So choose your words and actions carefully.

It strikes me that people who claim it doesn’t matter what you DO - your behavior, your actions, your “mitzvot” - and that the only thing that counts is “what’s in your heart” is an excuse to get away with poor behavior.

 

[ding]

This is a key difference between Judaism and Christianity. Jews focus on how one behaves - the Law - and Christians focus on what one believes - Faith.

I would have thought the key difference is that Christians believe that God loved man so much that he chose to be born into this world to testify to the truth, suffer death and reconcile justice with mercy by allowing man to put him on trial and convict him. The further I get in my walk I sense a supreme irony from the Creator.

 

[ding]

It strikes me that people who claim it doesn’t matter what you DO - your behavior, your actions, your “mitzvot” - and that the only thing that counts is “what’s in your heart” is an excuse to get away with poor behavior.

Sure, there's all kinds of rationalizations man makes. In fact I would argue man's "fall from grace" was really more about not taking accountability than it was disobeying God.

Adam did you eat the apple?
The woman you made gave it to me.

 

[Lisa558]

I would have thought the key difference is that Christians believe that God loved man so much that he chose to be born into this world to testify to the truth, suffer death and reconcile justice with mercy by allowing man to put him on trial and convict him. The further I get in my walk I sense a supreme irony from the Creator.

Yes, that is THE key difference. I labeled my observation of the difference between the law and faith (or in the context of this conversation, actions vs “what’s in one’s heart) A key difference.

The main one remains, as you note, the belief that Jesus was a deity vs a mortal man.

 

[Lisa558]

Sure, there's all kinds of rationalizations man makes. In fact I would argue man's "fall from grace" was really more about not taking accountability than it was disobeying God.

Adam did you eat the apple?
The woman you made gave it to me.

LOL. Human nature sure hasn’t changed. (“It’s HER fault!)

 

[ding]

LOL. Human nature sure hasn’t changed. (“It’s HER fault!)

Adam may have been the first to rationalize his actions but Eve did it too.

Eve did you eat the apple?
The serpent deceived me.

Can you imagine how much the world would change if overnight everyone became accountable?

 

[BreezeWood]

the difference is the desert religions have chosen servitude and denial for their admission to worship those already there - not happening reflecting their failure to respond accordingly to the events of the 1st century.

where a&e chose liberation theology, self determination ... to become equals with those that already reside in the heavens as their means for admission.

 

[hadit]

Gd sees what people DO, and the mitzvot they do - and that is what is pleasing to Him.

This is a key difference between Judaism and Christianity. Jews focus on how one behaves - the Law - and Christians focus on what one believes - Faith.

That is a key difference, yes, and was the cause of debate in the early church. Since all of the early believers were Jews, it was natural for them to bring adherence to the law with them into Christianity, but when Gentiles started coming to faith, they realized it was not right to put the Law on them.

One thing I would like to stress is that faith is much stronger than mere belief. Example: a daredevil walks across Niagara Falls on a rope and the crowd oohs and ahhhs. He comes back, puts a wheelbarrow on the rope and makes the crossing again, pushing it in front of him. On his return, he asks the crowd, "How many of you believe I could put one of you in this wheelbarrow and safely push you over and back on the rope"? Several hands go up. "Okay, which one of you will get in the wheelbarrow"? Belief is saying, "Sure, you can do that". Faith is getting in the wheelbarrow. IOW, when a Christian professes faith in Christ, he/she is saying a whole lot more than just "I believe", he/she is saying, "I trust completely in Him and I put my life in His hands".

Now, God seeing the heart and actions are not in opposition. We Christians focus on the heart because Jesus ELEVATED the tenets of the Law from actions to attitudes and thoughts. To paraphrase what he said, "The Law says do not murder. I say that if you are angry with your brother, you are liable for judgement. And again, the Law says do not commit adultery. I say that if you look at a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart". Now, if it is impossible to 100% keep all 613 commandments when they are action based, think of how much harder it is to keep your thoughts totally free of sin.

That is why I say that God sees the heart where the true character lies. You can fool people by acting piously and obeying the rules on the surface, but God sees the reality. Are you familiar with the way Jesus reacted to the Pharisees of His day? He called them whitewashed tombs, pretty on the outside but dead on the inside, because on the surface they followed the Law meticulously, but on the inside were selfish and out to obtain glory for themselves, not God. Actions are very important, make no mistake about that, but we believe that actions follow the dictates of the heart. If you are an angry person inside, for example, you can be nice and polite for only so long before that anger comes out.

Finally, I apologize for making you feel insulted. I hope we can have a good discussion.

 

[hadit]

Exactly as I predicted. You brought up doing good when it suited you and then dismissed it when it didn't.

My view on deeds has been consistent. If you bothered to look back through these threads, you would see that.

What I see is the protestant inability to understand that the Catholic view is everything is through the grace of God and that our behaviors are a sign of how that grace manifests itself in us.

That's what we believe as well. Why do you continue to mischaracterize our beliefs? You do to us what you claim we do to you.

If you behave poorly as a Christian it's a sign that God's grace has not become manifest. So choose your words and actions carefully.

What have I said about good deeds? Be careful in your answer because I have maintained this whole time that good deeds follow a changed heart. Good deeds done selfishly don't gain anyone anything in God's eyes. Good deeds done cynically or from a desire to put God in a situation where He is required to bless you because you are just so good also benefit you nothing, because God doesn't just look on the outside, He looks at the heart. People look at the outside and can be fooled while God cannot be fooled.

Good deeds are commanded, and those whose hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit will do them. Obeying the top 2 commandments will have a person doing them, but trying to force salvation by doing good deeds is a dead-end road.

 

[Lisa558]

That is a key difference, yes, and was the cause of debate in the early church. Since all of the early believers were Jews, it was natural for them to bring adherence to the law with them into Christianity, but when Gentiles started coming to faith, they realized it was not right to put the Law on them.

One thing I would like to stress is that faith is much stronger than mere belief. Example: a daredevil walks across Niagara Falls on a rope and the crowd oohs and ahhhs. He comes back, puts a wheelbarrow on the rope and makes the crossing again, pushing it in front of him. On his return, he asks the crowd, "How many of you believe I could put one of you in this wheelbarrow and safely push you over and back on the rope"? Several hands go up. "Okay, which one of you will get in the wheelbarrow"? Belief is saying, "Sure, you can do that". Faith is getting in the wheelbarrow. IOW, when a Christian professes faith in Christ, he/she is saying a whole lot more than just "I believe", he/she is saying, "I trust completely in Him and I put my life in His hands".

Now, God seeing the heart and actions are not in opposition. We Christians focus on the heart because Jesus ELEVATED the tenets of the Law from actions to attitudes and thoughts. To paraphrase what he said, "The Law says do not murder. I say that if you are angry with your brother, you are liable for judgement. And again, the Law says do not commit adultery. I say that if you look at a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart". Now, if it is impossible to 100% keep all 613 commandments when they are action based, think of how much harder it is to keep your thoughts totally free of sin.

That is why I say that God sees the heart where the true character lies. You can fool people by acting piously and obeying the rules on the surface, but God sees the reality. Are you familiar with the way Jesus reacted to the Pharisees of His day? He called them whitewashed tombs, pretty on the outside but dead on the inside, because on the surface they followed the Law meticulously, but on the inside were selfish and out to obtain glory for themselves, not God. Actions are very important, make no mistake about that, but we believe that actions follow the dictates of the heart. If you are an angry person inside, for example, you can be nice and polite for only so long before that anger comes out.

Finally, I apologize for making you feel insulted. I hope we can have a good discussion.

Yes, I would like to have a good discussion - and I appreciate your apology - but right now I am sleep-deprived from being up almost the entire night and focused on all the election coverage.

But what we have hit on would be a great debate: do actions follow feelings, or do feelings follow actions? We had a discussion about this very thing at my Torah class, and I’ll look forward to addressing it with you further.

But right now, I’m following the election analysis and waiting for Kamala to give her concession speech - and after that, a nap.

Let’s touch base later today.

 

[hadit]

Yes, I would like to have a good discussion - and I appreciate your apology - but right now I am sleep-deprived from being up almost the entire night and focused on all the election coverage.

But what we have hit on would be a great debate: do actions follow feelings, or do feelings follow actions? We had a discussion about this very thing at my Torah class, and I’ll look forward to addressing it with you further.

But right now, I’m following the election analysis and waiting for Kamala to give her concession speech - and after that, a nap.

Let’s touch base later today.

Deal.

 

[Clyde 154]

Or do they need something else to be saved from Hell?

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

God made the choice to enter Heaven a freewill judgement of each and every person that claims to Love the Lord...........Heaven or Hell is a personal choice. The Lord sends no one to hell.....your unrepentant sins send you to hell.

Of course LOVE is all that is required, a persons life judges him/her when compared to the commandments of the Lord. We will all be judged by the same method, "And the dead were judged by what is written in the BOOKS (the book of life and the Holy Scriptures inspired by the Lord) -- Rev. 20:12 All scripture is inspired of God (2 Tim. 3:16-17).......these words are all one needs to make the man of God WHOLE (perfect in Koine Greek, the universal language used to translate the Holy Bible 2 hundred years before the birth of Christ Himself, the translation primarily used during this time period and today, called the Septuagint). Everything required for salvation if found within the words of the Holy Scriptures (2 Peter 1:3) We have been given everything pertaining to life and godliness through the knowledge of Christ Jesus.

If you truly LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART....."If you love ME (the Lord), you will keep my commandments...." -- John 14:15

 

[Woodznutz]

10 Commandments, 613 mitvot. Act the part dont just think and speak of what needs to be done. Hopefully that will be enough but who really knows?

Love, agape(o) is all encompassing when understood.