POLL: Let's try a COVID compromise, shall we?

[Rigby5]

What's stupider is this comment in 6 months time after thousands more will have died.

What slows down infection and makes the epidemic last so long are masks and social distancing.
If we had done this right, and encouraged the initial spike, instead of trying to "flatten the curve", then it would have been over in 2 months, years ago, with only about 60k dead.
The science is clear.
You can easily make any flu or other virus last forever, if you conserve easy hosts with masks and social distancing.
You are ONLY supposed to use masks and social distancing if you are either going full quarantine, or for the compromised.
When you are not going full quarantine, then you want to increase infection rates as quickly as possible.
We know the science.
This is nothing new.
Go look up how Gen. Washington prevented the Continental Army from being decimated by smallpox in 1777.
He ordered deliberate infection, known as variolation inoculation.
{...
In February 1777, Washington told Continental Congress president John Hancock that he saw no other way to prevent the spread of the disease than to inoculate the whole army. By the end of the year, variolation had been performed on about 40,000 soldiers, and infection rates plummeted from 20 percent to a measly 1 percent. Soon after that, legislators across the fledgling nation did away with variolation prohibition.
...}

One Vaccination, Under God: When George Washington Kept a Smallpox Epidemic From Costing Him the American Revolution

Smallpox vaccination was banned in America during the Revolutionary War, but George Washington was determined to protect his army no matter what.

www.mentalfloss.com

Vaccine would not be invented for over 20 years.
Inoculation does not mean vaccination in this case, but deliberate infection.

 

[j-mac]

How many have gotten covid, recovered and SHOULD be listed among those with immunity

Exactly.

 

[HappyJoy]

What slows down infection and makes the epidemic last so long are masks and social distancing.
If we had done this right, and encouraged the initial spike, instead of trying to "flatten the curve", then it would have been over in 2 months, years ago, with only about 60k dead.
The science is clear.
You can easily make any flu or other virus last forever, if you conserve easy hosts with masks and social distancing.
You are ONLY supposed to use masks and social distancing if you are either going full quarantine, or for the compromised.
When you are not going full quarantine, then you want to increase infection rates as quickly as possible.
We know the science.
This is nothing new.
Go look up how Gen. Washington prevented the Continental Army from being decimated by smallpox in 1777.
He ordered deliberate infection, known as variolation inoculation.
{...
In February 1777, Washington told Continental Congress president John Hancock that he saw no other way to prevent the spread of the disease than to inoculate the whole army. By the end of the year, variolation had been performed on about 40,000 soldiers, and infection rates plummeted from 20 percent to a measly 1 percent. Soon after that, legislators across the fledgling nation did away with variolation prohibition.
...}

One Vaccination, Under God: When George Washington Kept a Smallpox Epidemic From Costing Him the American Revolution

Smallpox vaccination was banned in America during the Revolutionary War, but George Washington was determined to protect his army no matter what.

www.mentalfloss.com

Vaccine would not be invented for over 20 years.
Inoculation does not mean vaccination in this case, but deliberate infection.

All total and complete horseshit. I know you are unaware, but it is and it's disappointing.

 

[j-mac]

What do you consider natural immunity?

Does this count?

Vaccine offers more protection against COVID-19 than natural immunity, CDC study finds

Scientists analyzed data from patients hospitalized with COVID-19 symptoms through the Delta variant's surge.

www.cbsnews.com

Or this?

COVID-19: Disease-induced (natural) immunity, vaccination or hybrid immunity?

If you’ve had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?

www.nebraskamed.com

This is an interesting find.

• More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies

And the injections offer only 8 mos protection before needing a booster. I do question your 1/3 stat. Don’t know where it comes from, but sure, why not introduce natural immunity into the discussion?

 

[HappyJoy]

And the injections offer only 8 mos protection before needing a booster.

And?

I do question your 1/3 stat. Don’t know where it comes from, but sure, why not introduce natural immunity into the discussion?

It's not my stat. If you want to find a study that shows a different percentage then be my guest. But people can and have gotten COVID more than once. Nobody really knows how long immunity lasts after you've had it (never mind any long term effects) and the best way to not get it again is to get vaccinated. Yeah, big boy you may face the needle more than 2 times and if you ask kindly they'll give you a sucker.

 

[Rigby5]

What do you consider natural immunity?

Does this count?

Vaccine offers more protection against COVID-19 than natural immunity, CDC study finds

Scientists analyzed data from patients hospitalized with COVID-19 symptoms through the Delta variant's surge.

www.cbsnews.com

Or this?

COVID-19: Disease-induced (natural) immunity, vaccination or hybrid immunity?

If you’ve had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?

www.nebraskamed.com

This is an interesting find.

• More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies

Totally wrong.
First of all, the study you link has been completely discredited by ALL the real studies, like the one from Israel, showing natural immunity is over 10 times better than vax immunity.
Second is that antibodies is NOT how you measure immunity,
If your immunity is high, antibodies will be quickly generated and quickly destroyed after they have done their job.
Antibodies are not the source of immunity.
T-cells in the bone marrow are.
And they can't be tested for.
The only valid test for immunity is to deliberately infect (with dead covid), and then measure the immediate antibody response.
Third is they are finding that mRNA vaccines are not producing ANY long term immunity memory at all.
After 4 months when the antibodies are all gone those vaccinated have ZERO protection.

 

[Rigby5]

And?


It's not my stat. If you want to find a study that shows a different percentage then be my guest. But people can and have gotten COVID more than once. Nobody really knows how long immunity lasts after you've had it (never mind any long term effects) and the best way to not get it again is to get vaccinated. Yeah, big boy you may face the needle more than 2 times and if you ask kindly they'll give you a sucker.

Wrong.
Sure people have gotten covid more than once, but that has NOTHING to do with immunity.
Since this virus lives in airways, the immune system can't know about an infection until it is huge and very destructive already.
So that tells you NOTHING about natural immunity.
No immunity prevents covid infection.
Immunity only tells you how quickly and easily you get rid of it.
And natural immunity last almost infinitely longer than vax immunity.
Just ask yourself what the vax tries to teach the immune system to trigger on?
It can't be spike proteins because your own exosomes also have to use spike proteins in order bring in messages through ACE2 receptor sites.

There is not a single person who says the vax reduces infection at all, in any way.
All they do say, is that when and if you do get infected, that if vaxed, you are less likely to have the fatal over reaction, than if you have no immunity at all.

 

[j-mac]

And?


It's not my stat. If you want to find a study that shows a different percentage then be my guest. But people can and have gotten COVID more than once. Nobody really knows how long immunity lasts after you've had it (never mind any long term effects) and the best way to not get it again is to get vaccinated. Yeah, big boy you may face the needle more than 2 times and if you ask kindly they'll give you a sucker.

See, this is why conversation with you people is pointless…if all you want to do is insult and mock like a child then GFY…

I’m a truck driver that’s been all over since the start, I’ve been vaxxed, and will get my booster next month…never had COVID and don’t expect to…I have had friends that have, and now should already carry the antibodies. Why that’s not a consideration I cant understand, unless this is about control.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

I've changed my opinion over the last week on vaccinations. There are clearly a lot of people who, for their own reasons, are going to refuse to get vaccinated. There's not a damn thing I can do about that, so I'm just trying to deal with reality here. So to make this as clear as I can:

1. I support your right to not get vaccinated.
2. I am against forcing you to get vaccinated.

There. Nice and clear. I figure the only way to get past this mess is to either get vaccinated or get sick and develop an immunity that way, if you don't die. I'll look at it like a controlled burn, where you just get rid of the wasted underbrush. Fine. We can all move on now. And, I won't even ask you to not spread this virus, especially to kids, since we're now seeing an increase in hospitalizations there. I know that asking you to at least be careful for them is an "attack" on your "freedom" and "liberty", and we all know how you feel about THAT.

There. You are free to exercise your freedom and your liberty, and the rest of us will get off your backs. In exchange, I will propose this fully free market compromise:

1. Any business is free to install and enforce mask mandates to protect their employees and patrons. If you don't like that, you are free to exercise your free market rights and shop at their competition.
2. Any hospital is free to (a) put voluntarily non-vaccinated COVID patients on a lower priority for both ICUs and private rooms so that regular patients with other problems can be served as they should be, and (b) charge whatever extra COVID fees they feel are appropriate, whether it is upon admission, on a daily basis, or both. In cash. Up front. A fully free market solution.

Can we agree? Vaxxers? Anti-Vaxxers?

Unvaccinated Couple Desperate for Kids To Get Shots After Ending Up in ICU

Lydia Rodriguez and her husband are on ventilators in a Texas hospital after contracting coronavirus in July.

www.newsweek.com

Hey Mac, should those fat people, smokers, drug heads get a spot in the basement too when they have a heart attack, start stroking out, over dosing, kidneys start failing them?

 

[zaangalewa]

A sword has a handle and you aim and control it.

There mRNA injections are autonomous, totally out of control, are at least 10 times more dangerous than traditional vaccines, and likely do not create any permanent T-cell memory at all.

I have absolutelly not any idea what you try to say with this nonsense.

Since these mRNA injections do not contain a virus, then what is the immune system supposed to be trained to trigger on?

The messenger-ribonucleinacid delivers to some cells the building plan for a special protein of the virus which functions in the human body as an antigen. This antigen activates the immune system which produces an adequate immune response. Part of this response is it to produce anti-bodies which are able to bind the antigen.

It can't be spike proteins because our own exosomes use the same spike proteins in order to access ACE2 receptor sites on our cells.

Okay - with how many dead ghosts like me who are vaccinanted with an mRNA-vaccine do you speak every day? And how many victims of covid-19 are you able to visit in the graveyards or at home with long-covid problems? And last not least: If you do not trust in this proven method - on whatever reason of fantasy - why do you not use another vaccine as for example the Chinese vaccine from Sinovac?

 

[boedicca]

I've changed my opinion over the last week on vaccinations. There are clearly a lot of people who, for their own reasons, are going to refuse to get vaccinated. There's not a damn thing I can do about that, so I'm just trying to deal with reality here. So to make this as clear as I can:

1. I support your right to not get vaccinated.
2. I am against forcing you to get vaccinated.

There. Nice and clear. I figure the only way to get past this mess is to either get vaccinated or get sick and develop an immunity that way, if you don't die. I'll look at it like a controlled burn, where you just get rid of the wasted underbrush. Fine. We can all move on now. And, I won't even ask you to not spread this virus, especially to kids, since we're now seeing an increase in hospitalizations there. I know that asking you to at least be careful for them is an "attack" on your "freedom" and "liberty", and we all know how you feel about THAT.

There. You are free to exercise your freedom and your liberty, and the rest of us will get off your backs. In exchange, I will propose this fully free market compromise:

1. Any business is free to install and enforce mask mandates to protect their employees and patrons. If you don't like that, you are free to exercise your free market rights and shop at their competition.
2. Any hospital is free to (a) put voluntarily non-vaccinated COVID patients on a lower priority for both ICUs and private rooms so that regular patients with other problems can be served as they should be, and (b) charge whatever extra COVID fees they feel are appropriate, whether it is upon admission, on a daily basis, or both. In cash. Up front. A fully free market solution.

Can we agree? Vaxxers? Anti-Vaxxers?

Unvaccinated Couple Desperate for Kids To Get Shots After Ending Up in ICU

Lydia Rodriguez and her husband are on ventilators in a Texas hospital after contracting coronavirus in July.

www.newsweek.com

No. What you are describing as a "Free Market Solution" violates the Civil Rights of people who do not wish to be jabbed with an experimental and ineffective mRNA treatment.

Substitute "Black", "Disabled", or "Muslim" for the non-Vaxxed and see how your "Solution" reads.

 

[HappyJoy]

Totally wrong.
First of all, the study you link has been completely discredited by ALL the real studies, like the one from Israel, showing natural immunity is over 10 times better than vax immunity.

This study?

Breakthrough Infections Occur in Those with Lower Antibody Levels, Israeli Study Shows

To see how COVID-19 vaccines are working in the real world, Israel has provided particularly compelling data. The fact that Israel is relatively small, keeps comprehensive medical records, and has …

directorsblog.nih.gov

Doesn't contradict anything I've posted.

As a matter of fact of the breakthrough infections which resulted in about .4% of those vaccinated not a single one of them were serious and no one died or required hospitalization.

Of those breakthrough infections not a single one of the people passed it on to anyone else.

Another point is that of those breakthrough infections in a country that is highly vaccinated half of them were infected from an unvaccinated person.

This study is obviously finding a lot of pros in the vaccination column.

The findings add to evidence that full vaccination and associated immunity offer good protection against SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe illness. Understanding how SARS-CoV-2 immunity changes over time is key for charting the course of this pandemic and making important decisions about COVID-19 vaccine boosters.​

Second is that antibodies is NOT how you measure immunity,
If your immunity is high, antibodies will be quickly generated and quickly destroyed after they have done their job.
Antibodies are not the source of immunity.
T-cells in the bone marrow are.
And they can't be tested for.
The only valid test for immunity is to deliberately infect (with dead covid), and then measure the immediate antibody response.
Third is they are finding that mRNA vaccines are not producing ANY long term immunity memory at all.
After 4 months when the antibodies are all gone those vaccinated have ZERO protection.

Neat. It's antibodies but whatever.

 

[Rigby5]

See, this is why conversation with you people is pointless…if all you want to do is insult and mock like a child then GFY…

I’m a truck driver that’s been all over since the start, I’ve been vaxxed, and will get my booster next month…never had COVID and don’t expect to…I have had friends that have, and now should already carry the antibodies. Why that’s not a consideration I cant understand, unless this is about control.

Problem with your post is that antibodies are not the source of immunity.
Immunity is stored in T-cells in your bone marrow, so can't be detected or counted.
So you can't tell if someone is immune or not without injecting them with something to stimulate antibody production.
Antibodies only live less than 4 months or so.
They can't be used to tell if immune or not.
But the problem with these mRNA injections is they appear to ONLY produce antibodies, and NOT any permanent T-cell memory.

 

[boedicca]

And the injections offer only 8 mos protection before needing a booster. I do question your 1/3 stat. Don’t know where it comes from, but sure, why not introduce natural immunity into the discussion?

They aren't even doing that. The jabs are all a based on the Alpha variant's spike protein. They do not work on the Delta variant.

The pandemic is Political, not Public Health related. Our corrupt "Elites" want it to go on forever as a way to control and punish anyone who doesn't support their agenda.

 

[HappyJoy]

Wrong.
Sure people have gotten covid more than once, but that has NOTHING to do with immunity.

For those diagnosed with COVID? Sure....that makes sense (no it doesn't)

Since this virus lives in airways, the immune system can't know about an infection until it is huge and very destructive already.

Neat but those who test positive for COVID? Or get sick or get sick and die?

So that tells you NOTHING about natural immunity.
No immunity prevents covid infection.
Immunity only tells you how quickly and easily you get rid of it.
And natural immunity last almost infinitely longer than vax immunity.

You know natural immunity and vaccinations are not diametrically opposed, right? It's not really one or the other.

Just ask yourself what the vax tries to teach the immune system to trigger on?
It can't be spike proteins because your own exosomes also have to use spike proteins in order bring in messages through ACE2 receptor sites.

It is spike proteins. You think they are just making this shit up?

There is not a single person who says the vax reduces infection at all, in any way.

We know that vaccines reduce infection and seriousness of illness and death. This is a known quantity and even that Israeli study demonstrates as much. Every legitimate study has.

All they do say, is that when and if you do get infected, that if vaxed, you are less likely to have the fatal over reaction, than if you have no immunity at all.

That's a big deal. You are also more protected if you are vaccinated and had COVID before as well.

 

[zaangalewa]

No. What you are describing as a "Free Market Solution" violates the Civil Rights of people who do not wish to be jabbed with an experimental and ineffective mRNA treatment.

It is not experimental. It is proven. Meanwhile in millions of cases.

Substitute "Black", "Disabled", or "Muslim" for the non-Vaxxed and see how your "Solution" reads.

Sorry - but Blacks, Disabled and also Muslims don't infect themselves or others with an extremelly dangerous virus. You could compare the "non-Vaxxed" with drunken cowboys who are shooting each other and innocent people - while all others try to convince them to let it be to do so.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

It is not experimental. It is proven. Meanwhile in millions of cases.



Sorry - but Blacks, Disabled and also Muslims don't infect themselves or others with an extremelly dangerous virus. You could compare the "non-Vaxxed" with drunken cowboys who are shooting each other and innocent people - while all others try to convince them to let it be to do so.

It is experimental. It went through 6 months of clinical trials while all other vaccines went through 8-12 years before they were approved. We do know it is destroying the immune system.

 

[Rigby5]

This study?

Breakthrough Infections Occur in Those with Lower Antibody Levels, Israeli Study Shows

To see how COVID-19 vaccines are working in the real world, Israel has provided particularly compelling data. The fact that Israel is relatively small, keeps comprehensive medical records, and has …

directorsblog.nih.gov

Doesn't contradict anything I've posted.

As a matter of fact of the breakthrough infections which resulted in about .4% of those vaccinated not a single one of them were serious and no one died or required hospitalization.

Of those breakthrough infections not a single one of the people passed it on to anyone else.

Another point is that of those breakthrough infections in a country that is highly vaccinated half of them were infected from an unvaccinated person.

This study is obviously finding a lot of pros in the vaccination column.

The findings add to evidence that full vaccination and associated immunity offer good protection against SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe illness. Understanding how SARS-CoV-2 immunity changes over time is key for charting the course of this pandemic and making important decisions about COVID-19 vaccine boosters.​

Neat. It's antibodies but whatever.

Wrong.

No one knows how they get infected since they do not feel symptoms or test positive for a week later.
So the claim those infected got it from those without a vax is an obvious lie.

The only thing you wrote that was true was that those who did get the vax were very much less likely to die.
But it also appears that prevention of death is not going to even last 6 months.
These mRNA injections can't produce long term immunity memory because there is nothing that can be stored in long term T-cell memory.
The mRNA injections only produce spike proteins, and your immune system can not remember to trigger on spike proteins because or own exosomes have to also use spike proteins in order to access ACE2 receptors.

The claim the vax prevents spread is false.
Spread happens most in the first week, and your immune system does not even yet know about your infection in the first week.
There are NO studies that show the vax reduces infection, at all.
The spread likely happened BEFORE the person got tested and discovered they were infected, and there is no way to trace that spread.
And obviously people are going to not spread after testing positive, because they are going to take additional precautions.

And no, antibodies are NOT where long term immunity information is stored by the body.
It is T-cells and B-cells in the bone marrow, and they produce the temporary antibodies only when needed.
T-cells and B-cells are NOT antibodies.

 

[Mac1958]

Hey Mac, should those fat people, smokers, drug heads get a spot in the basement too when they have a heart attack, start stroking out, over dosing, kidneys start failing them?

Well sure, if their eating, smoking and drug-taking behaviors are easily spread through the air to other people who could catch them!

You bet! I'm with ya!

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Well sure, if their eating, smoking and drug-taking behaviors are easily spread through the air to other people who could catch them!

You bet! I'm with ya!

No, I asked if you'd give fat people, druggies, a place in the basement for their decisions when they stroked out? I've got my answer. You'd be a fine assistant for mengele!