Playing Music – Much Better Than Just Listening

[Pogo]

And now we're into a sort of "It's not art!" discussion, which is a different thing from saying it's not music.

Can't agree there. It's the same discussion. Music is one of the arts, just a specific one.
See previous reference to Muzak.

And, of course, art is entirely subjective.

Agreed, as is all art.

 

[Montrovant]

And now we're into a sort of "It's not art!" discussion, which is a different thing from saying it's not music.

Can't agree there. It's the same discussion. Music is one of the arts, just a specific one.
See previous reference to Muzak.

And, of course, art is entirely subjective.

Agreed, as is all art.

It's like looking at a painting. Usually, people can agree that it is a painting.....but not necessarily that it is art.

 

[IsaacNewton]

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

No, more the opposite. That is, recitation which does NOT involve singing is poetry.

OK, but there is a difference between the recitation and the genre of music known as rap, isn't there? The rapping itself may not be music, but it is put to music, making a song.

Put another way, if you have a song that is all instrumental, that is music, yes? If someone raps to that song, is it no longer music?

I'm discussing rap as a musical genre, not solely as the vocals involved. Besides, I don't think that all rap vocals are simply recitation with no music to them. I haven't listened to enough rap to speak too deeply about it, though. It's not a style I enjoy.

The rap is set to "music" only in the sense that it's an extremely stripped-down candy music, there for no other purpose than to fill up the background. And it can't be any more than simplistic candy because then it grabs the listener's attention and you have music. Which they're consciously trying to avoid.

So simplistic, when I hear it all I can think is "good grief, play something adult". I think that's part of why I disparage it. Way too façile, way too childishly simplistic, way too unchallenging (except of course for the aforementioned aggression).

So to return back to this:

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

--- seems to me if you're not reaching for something in the music -- something that isn't readily obvious or expected, if you're making no attempt to expand the basic music structure, if you're in other words not breaking an art sweat (and deliberately avoiding doing so), then it can't count as music.

Simple 12-bar blues is much more a poetry. It too uses a completely predictable music background but offers a cadence that forces anticipation of the punch line -- and in that there is much art, as well as in the circumlocutionalry delivery of the expression. It's nowhere near the blunt instrument that "rap" is. And of course, the 12-bar blues structure offers endless opportunity for purely musical expression in between with the solos.

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker. If the spoken word poetry were good, and a few of them are more thought out rather than spur of the moment gut reaction to some event, rap would have more carry. But it doesn't. It devolved in the 1990s into an angry street level voice of people yelling at and threatening each other, mimicking what was happening in these people's lives at some point.

And that's fine, giving voice to a human condition that causes people to be angry and threaten or even kill others is worth putting into some form of art. But it rarely rises above the street level anger. It speaks to those who have to live that life, and it captures a lot of attention of youth in general because young people, especially boys, have a built in need to dominate and physically force their will on others. Lyrics that give voice to "I'm gonna get my nine and clock your ass" do resonate with young men who are already prone to force or violence. They like to fight. But then most people grow out of that.

I find it comical that Kanye West views himself as some great artist. He's a pop artist which isn't saying much artistically. And that has nothing to do with race. Madonna, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, all their music is mediocrity that sells. These people are not great artists. Pop music is not a great art form, it is enjoyable for the masses, including myself, but in a shallow way. Kanye West comparing himself to Stanley Kubrick or Spielberg is like comparing Henry Winkler and Daniel Day Lewis. One is a master artist, the other is bubble-gum pop adequate at his job.

 

[Pogo]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

 

[Pogo]

And now we're into a sort of "It's not art!" discussion, which is a different thing from saying it's not music.

Can't agree there. It's the same discussion. Music is one of the arts, just a specific one.
See previous reference to Muzak.

And, of course, art is entirely subjective.

Agreed, as is all art.

It's like looking at a painting. Usually, people can agree that it is a painting.....but not necessarily that it is art.

Sort of. I think in this case the analogy is more like a question of "is it even a painting?".

 

[Montrovant]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

Again, I think you are wrong. Plenty of art and creativity can come from anger. Music, poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, all can be anger-driven.

Also, I think you are wrong about anger coming from the left hemisphere. And what hemisphere emotion comes from may not be clear when it comes to music. Left Brain-Right Brain Split not as Definite as Previously Thought

 

[Pogo]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

Again, I think you are wrong. Plenty of art and creativity can come from anger. Music, poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, all can be anger-driven.

Also, I think you are wrong about anger coming from the left hemisphere. And what hemisphere emotion comes from may not be clear when it comes to music. Left Brain-Right Brain Split not as Definite as Previously Thought

Check out "The Master and his Emissary" by Iain Gilchrist. A long and erudite read but a fascinating one. And abundant with study sources.

No I think this is exactly it, and what sets them apart. I disagree that music, or any art, can be derived from anger. It might be used as a derivative component but pure anger cannot be art. Anger generates fights, and assaults, and wars, and rapes etc. It can't generate art or anything with any redeeming social value.

For instance somebody would write a "protest" song using sarcasm, as in the Dylan song referenced earlier. But sarcasm is more complex than anger, which is one-dimensional. It has to be assembled in the right brain, even if it's using input from the left.

No I think we're on to something here. Anger by itself never creates anything. It can't do it. All it can create, by itself, is destruction. This seems to be why we single out "rap" as separate and distinct from .... Blues, Jazz, Pop, Rock, etc etc. It IS singularly different. Because it's literally coming from a different place.

All it took was a right-brain exercise to see it.

 

[Pogo]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

Again, I think you are wrong. Plenty of art and creativity can come from anger. Music, poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, all can be anger-driven.

Also, I think you are wrong about anger coming from the left hemisphere. And what hemisphere emotion comes from may not be clear when it comes to music. Left Brain-Right Brain Split not as Definite as Previously Thought

Check out "The Master and his Emissary" by Iain Gilchrist. A long and erudite read but a fascinating one. And abundant with study sources.

No I think this is exactly it, and what sets them apart. I disagree that music, or any art, can be derived from anger. It might be used as a derivative component but pure anger cannot be art. Anger generates fights, and assaults, and wars, and rapes etc. It can't generate art or anything with any redeeming social value.

For instance somebody would write a "protest" song using sarcasm, as in the Dylan song referenced earlier. But sarcasm is more complex than anger, which is one-dimensional. It has to be assembled in the right brain, even if it's using input from the left.

No I think we're on to something here. Anger by itself never creates anything. It can't do it. All it can create, by itself, is destruction. This seems to be why we single out "rap" as separate and distinct from .... Blues, Jazz, Pop, Rock, etc etc. It IS singularly different. Because it's literally coming from a different place.

All it took was a right-brain exercise to see it.

And RE that book -- Dr McGilchrist doesn't argue that the left and right operate independently, absolutely not. I'm not sure anyone argues that. On the contrary he provides example after example of the two hemispheres' collaborations, as your link also mentions. As well as a large number of case studies where one hemisphere IS operating independently (in the case of brain damage) to illustrate exactly that collaboration and what is lost in each case and what is not.

But yes, anger is definitely a left-brain generation, as distinct from the other emotions. Singularly so. When I have time I'll look up some references therein.

 

[Montrovant]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

Again, I think you are wrong. Plenty of art and creativity can come from anger. Music, poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, all can be anger-driven.

Also, I think you are wrong about anger coming from the left hemisphere. And what hemisphere emotion comes from may not be clear when it comes to music. Left Brain-Right Brain Split not as Definite as Previously Thought

Check out "The Master and his Emissary" by Iain Gilchrist. A long and erudite read but a fascinating one. And abundant with study sources.

No I think this is exactly it, and what sets them apart. I disagree that music, or any art, can be derived from anger. It might be used as a derivative component but pure anger cannot be art. Anger generates fights, and assaults, and wars, and rapes etc. It can't generate art or anything with any redeeming social value.

For instance somebody would write a "protest" song using sarcasm, as in the Dylan song referenced earlier. But sarcasm is more complex than anger, which is one-dimensional. It has to be assembled in the right brain, even if it's using input from the left.

No I think we're on to something here. Anger by itself never creates anything. It can't do it. All it can create, by itself, is destruction. This seems to be why we single out "rap" as separate and distinct from .... Blues, Jazz, Pop, Rock, etc etc. It IS singularly different. Because it's literally coming from a different place.

All it took was a right-brain exercise to see it.

And RE that book -- Dr McGilchrist doesn't argue that the left and right operate independently, absolutely not. I'm not sure anyone argues that. On the contrary he provides example after example of the two hemispheres' collaborations, as your link also mentions. As well as a large number of case studies where one hemisphere IS operating independently (in the case of brain damage) to illustrate exactly that collaboration and what is lost in each case and what is not.

But yes, anger is definitely a left-brain generation, as distinct from the other emotions. Singularly so. When I have time I'll look up some references therein.

I've yet to find anything saying that anger comes from a different area of the brain than other emotion. I have, on the other hand, read from multiple sources that emotion tends to be processed in the same part of the brain; sometimes just the limbic system, sometimes more specifically the amygdala.

 

[protectionist]

I have found much of Rap (notice I don't call it "music") is nothing more than some very dudes trying to show how extreme they can be in an obscene (racist, vulgar, disparaging) way, as if that somehow was a badge of honor to them. Maybe to a prehistoric "human" it might be.

 

[Pogo]

I also do not view 'most' rap as 'music'. It is generally middle school level angry spoken word poetry set to a rhythm background. Granted some of the backgrounds get pretty creative but as you note the focus is meant to be on the anger of the speaker.

Yanno this may actually hit the nail right on the head as far as the question "is it art". The keyword: "Anger".

Anger comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. The left side is the one that can't see contexts and plunges ahead singleminded, without regard to consequence on the greater whole, which is also what anger does. Music, and the arts and aesthetic appreciation in general, as well as all other emotions, come from the right hemisphere.

Maybe it comes down to that --- you can't generate art from the left hemisphere. It doesn't live there. And that's arguably why "rap" as it's devolved is an outlier.

Again, I think you are wrong. Plenty of art and creativity can come from anger. Music, poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, all can be anger-driven.

Also, I think you are wrong about anger coming from the left hemisphere. And what hemisphere emotion comes from may not be clear when it comes to music. Left Brain-Right Brain Split not as Definite as Previously Thought

Check out "The Master and his Emissary" by Iain Gilchrist. A long and erudite read but a fascinating one. And abundant with study sources.

No I think this is exactly it, and what sets them apart. I disagree that music, or any art, can be derived from anger. It might be used as a derivative component but pure anger cannot be art. Anger generates fights, and assaults, and wars, and rapes etc. It can't generate art or anything with any redeeming social value.

For instance somebody would write a "protest" song using sarcasm, as in the Dylan song referenced earlier. But sarcasm is more complex than anger, which is one-dimensional. It has to be assembled in the right brain, even if it's using input from the left.

No I think we're on to something here. Anger by itself never creates anything. It can't do it. All it can create, by itself, is destruction. This seems to be why we single out "rap" as separate and distinct from .... Blues, Jazz, Pop, Rock, etc etc. It IS singularly different. Because it's literally coming from a different place.

All it took was a right-brain exercise to see it.

And RE that book -- Dr McGilchrist doesn't argue that the left and right operate independently, absolutely not. I'm not sure anyone argues that. On the contrary he provides example after example of the two hemispheres' collaborations, as your link also mentions. As well as a large number of case studies where one hemisphere IS operating independently (in the case of brain damage) to illustrate exactly that collaboration and what is lost in each case and what is not.

But yes, anger is definitely a left-brain generation, as distinct from the other emotions. Singularly so. When I have time I'll look up some references therein.

I've yet to find anything saying that anger comes from a different area of the brain than other emotion. I have, on the other hand, read from multiple sources that emotion tends to be processed in the same part of the brain; sometimes just the limbic system, sometimes more specifically the amygdala.

I'll reference it when I can. It's a long long book and my Nook needs to charge.

 

[Montrovant]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

 

[Pogo]

I have found much of Rap (notice I don't call it "music") is nothing more than some very dudes trying to show how extreme they can be in an obscene (racist, vulgar, disparaging) way, as if that somehow was a badge of honor to them. Maybe to a prehistoric "human" it might be.

I think you're saying basically the same thing I and Isaac just observed.

 

[Pogo]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

 

[protectionist]

Lately I have been learning (and now playing) some fine music from the British Isles. In the folk music genre, on the mandolin and violin/fiddle, I've recently learned Rights of Man , Off to California, and Sailor's Hornpipe.

On the classic rock side, I just acquired >> If I Fell, In My Life, and I'll Follow the Sun, by the Beatles, and Old Man, (American) by Neil Young. Love the chords on these songs.

 

[Montrovant]

I have found much of Rap (notice I don't call it "music") is nothing more than some very dudes trying to show how extreme they can be in an obscene (racist, vulgar, disparaging) way, as if that somehow was a badge of honor to them. Maybe to a prehistoric "human" it might be.

This is intentionally extreme, and many would consider it obscene, yet I still certainly call it music:



Also, for Pogo, I think this may have been created from anger. And it certainly speaks to anger!

 

[Montrovant]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

 

[Montrovant]

I have found much of Rap (notice I don't call it "music") is nothing more than some very dudes trying to show how extreme they can be in an obscene (racist, vulgar, disparaging) way, as if that somehow was a badge of honor to them. Maybe to a prehistoric "human" it might be.

I think you're saying basically the same thing I and Isaac just observed.

I think all of you are really just saying rap songs are bad music.

 

[Pogo]

I have found much of Rap (notice I don't call it "music") is nothing more than some very dudes trying to show how extreme they can be in an obscene (racist, vulgar, disparaging) way, as if that somehow was a badge of honor to them. Maybe to a prehistoric "human" it might be.

I think you're saying basically the same thing I and Isaac just observed.

I think all of you are really just saying rap songs are bad music.

No not really. I think we're saying it isn't music, which is where we started.

There's plenty of bad music that it has to be admitted, IS music. I already brought up Muzak and disco. Isaac mentioned Justin Bieber. We could go into (modern) "Country" and opera.... but they're all music.

 

[Pogo]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.