Playing Music – Much Better Than Just Listening

[Pogo]

Lately I have been learning (and now playing) some fine music from the British Isles. In the folk music genre, on the mandolin and violin/fiddle, I've recently learned Rights of Man , Off to California, and Sailor's Hornpipe.

On the classic rock side, I just acquired >> If I Fell, In My Life, and I'll Follow the Sun, by the Beatles, and Old Man, (American) by Neil Young. Love the chords on these songs.

Those are fun. My personal favourite subgenre is the Scottish reels of Cape Breton. I'll post some when I get more time.

Meanwhile as a random choice check out this medley. She's from Donegal. Actually not totally random, as it starts slowly with a Strathspey and builds up gradually to a fever pitch which is typical of Cape Breton.

​

 

[protectionist]

I think all of you are really just saying rap songs are bad music.

FALSE! I don't categorize rap as "music" (good or bad)

Nor do I call it >> "songs"

 

[BULLDOG]

I’m a former professional musician. I played the guitar (6 string) in a Rock band for 11 years. I also played the mandolin, the fiddle, and guitar for Bluegrass bands, and as an individual folk guitar player on stage, as well.

I find playing (and listening to) both my own blues, and cover songs very rewarding. Regardless of the origin of the songs (and tunes), it is the music flowing out of my brain, my hands, my eyes, ears, and nervous system, that I appreciate in a way that no recording by anyone, can match.

Not that I’m knocking the professional bands or their recordings, but I enjoy my own performance of Strawberry Fields over that of the Beatles. Same with my own performance of Wild Horses over the Rolling Stones’ recording. Same with dozens of others. It’s YOUR playing, in YOUR way, based on the music of the song.

I think few people realize how great it is to make (and listen to) your own music, from your own instrument(s). I’ve gone to 5 (non-music-jam) parties this year. All of the hosts had impressive stereo systems, and extensive collections of CDs. All the partygoers were knowledgable of the recordings played, and talked about them a lot. But when I asked if there was a guitar in the house (which I was offering to play), all 5 houses were without a guitar (or any musical instrument).

Wow! What a waste. All that God-given capability, and no use of it. Unlike lesser animals (cats, dogs, horses, chimps, etc), all these people could be doing something they might enjoy considerably more than other hobbies. This could be just from learning (and practicing) a few simple chords. Then with learning a few more chords, and some additional technique, the music becomes more personal, and special. Chord charts can be printed from the internet, and even lessons are available free on You Tube.

I’d say if people knew what it was like to play an instrument, music stores would be sold out of their stock of guitars, mandolins, bass guitars. etc. all over town.

That's another reason funding for the arts in school is so important.

 

[protectionist]

Learn a musical instrument. Experience the joy of learning a new song or tune.

 

[protectionist]

That's another reason funding for the arts in school is so important.

True, but schools too often concentrate on classical music and its cohort, musical notation, at the expense of playing by ear, with rock, folk, bluegrass, etc.

 

[protectionist]

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

To call Dylan's song (It's All right Ma) "rap", would be to lower one of the greatest songs ever written to a subhuman, barbarian practice. But it was pre-rap, in that the airhead imitators of rap copied the song, and its talking blues, as we used to call it back in the 60s.

No, the rappers aren't close to Dylan or any of his songs. That is as sure as the sun and the moon.

 

[BULLDOG]

That's another reason funding for the arts in school is so important.

True, but schools too often concentrate on classical music and its cohort, musical notation, at the expense of playing by ear, with rock, folk, bluegrass, etc.

True. It's nice to understand musical structure so you can understand how to use or modify it. There is a reason why self taught artists get better as their career progresses. Many are slowly learning the things that those kids in school are already learning.

 

[Montrovant]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.

1. You can certainly have angry creative improvisation. I'm not sure why you think anger cannot be creative. For that matter, I see no reason jazz cannot come from anger. And I can say both from personal experience and from seeing work from others that anger can lead to creativity.

2. You are operating under the assumption that rap = anger. That's just not true. I don't listen to rap, but I can easily see that not all rap is brought about from anger.
To give some evidence of this point, I looked up the best selling rap singles of all time, to get an idea of what the most popular rap songs are like. I briefly played each song on youtube (like I said, I don't listen to rap, so I wasn't familiar with most of them), with lyrics. This is not a list full of nothing but angry songs by any stretch. 12 Top-Selling Rap Singles Of All Time

So if your argument is that rap is not music because it comes from anger, that is pretty clearly untrue. Nothing requires rap to be based on anger.

If that is your argument, it would also seem to mean that most extreme heavy metal is not music, because it is clearly an angry style of music.

Of course, something else you seem to be overlooking is that while the music and/or lyrics of a song might be intentionally made to inspire or resonate with anger, that doesn't mean the songs have to be made by someone's anger. It is possible to write a song which inspires emotions that were not at all felt in the creating of the song.

3. Your statement about the minimal effort in making anger rhyme seems like it could apply to all lyrics, and further, to all rhyming poetry. Or is it somehow easier to make rhymes about anger than it is to make rhymes about other emotions?

 

[Chuz Life]

I’m a former professional musician. I played the guitar (6 string) in a Rock band for 11 years. I also played the mandolin, the fiddle, and guitar for Bluegrass bands, and as an individual folk guitar player on stage, as well.

I find playing (and listening to) both my own blues, and cover songs very rewarding. Regardless of the origin of the songs (and tunes), it is the music flowing out of my brain, my hands, my eyes, ears, and nervous system, that I appreciate in a way that no recording by anyone, can match.

Not that I’m knocking the professional bands or their recordings, but I enjoy my own performance of Strawberry Fields over that of the Beatles. Same with my own performance of Wild Horses over the Rolling Stones’ recording. Same with dozens of others. It’s YOUR playing, in YOUR way, based on the music of the song.

I think few people realize how great it is to make (and listen to) your own music, from your own instrument(s). I’ve gone to 5 (non-music-jam) parties this year. All of the hosts had impressive stereo systems, and extensive collections of CDs. All the partygoers were knowledgable of the recordings played, and talked about them a lot. But when I asked if there was a guitar in the house (which I was offering to play), all 5 houses were without a guitar (or any musical instrument).

Wow! What a waste. All that God-given capability, and no use of it. Unlike lesser animals (cats, dogs, horses, chimps, etc), all these people could be doing something they might enjoy considerably more than other hobbies. This could be just from learning (and practicing) a few simple chords. Then with learning a few more chords, and some additional technique, the music becomes more personal, and special. Chord charts can be printed from the internet, and even lessons are available free on You Tube.

I’d say if people knew what it was like to play an instrument, music stores would be sold out of their stock of guitars, mandolins, bass guitars. etc. all over town.

Dude. You obviously have a passion for playing music. I do too. I hope it's okay to plug another website - if not, mods can let me know. But you gotta check out "wikiloops.com"

Musicians all over the world can jam together or even collaborate on more serious projects if they want too.

Please let me know what you think.

 

[Pogo]

That's another reason funding for the arts in school is so important.

True, but schools too often concentrate on classical music and its cohort, musical notation, at the expense of playing by ear, with rock, folk, bluegrass, etc.

Yep -- again the focus on left brain at the expense of the right.

I do everything with the right brain. After childhood I learned to play a grand total of one song from dots, just to see if I could do it. It was Bach's Prelude in C, and it took forever. Could have worked in out by ear in a fraction of the time (and I no longer play it from those dots, but from the aural memory)

"Classical music" --- or as I like to call it, "Dead white European male orchestral music from the 17th through 19th centuries".

 

[Pogo]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.

1. You can certainly have angry creative improvisation. I'm not sure why you think anger cannot be creative. For that matter, I see no reason jazz cannot come from anger. And I can say both from personal experience and from seeing work from others that anger can lead to creativity.

2. You are operating under the assumption that rap = anger. That's just not true. I don't listen to rap, but I can easily see that not all rap is brought about from anger.
To give some evidence of this point, I looked up the best selling rap singles of all time, to get an idea of what the most popular rap songs are like. I briefly played each song on youtube (like I said, I don't listen to rap, so I wasn't familiar with most of them), with lyrics. This is not a list full of nothing but angry songs by any stretch. 12 Top-Selling Rap Singles Of All Time

So if your argument is that rap is not music because it comes from anger, that is pretty clearly untrue. Nothing requires rap to be based on anger.

If that is your argument, it would also seem to mean that most extreme heavy metal is not music, because it is clearly an angry style of music.

Of course, something else you seem to be overlooking is that while the music and/or lyrics of a song might be intentionally made to inspire or resonate with anger, that doesn't mean the songs have to be made by someone's anger. It is possible to write a song which inspires emotions that were not at all felt in the creating of the song.

3. Your statement about the minimal effort in making anger rhyme seems like it could apply to all lyrics, and further, to all rhyming poetry. Or is it somehow easier to make rhymes about anger than it is to make rhymes about other emotions?

Again --- can you think of any music, or any creative art form at all, that is made simply out of anger? I can't.
That's not what anger does. What it does is swing fists and shoot guns and break things. There's nothing in that that can be called "creative" .

And on #2, if you "don't listen to it" how can you go ahead and define it?

Sorry I won't bother with that link. I have no desire to go to that place. But again, that's a reaction I wouldn't have to opera or "Country" or Muzak or Justin Bieber, none of which I fancy but all of which actually are music whether I like it or not. The thing is -- neither Opera nor Country nor Muzak nor any other legitimate music exist to piss you off or to crow about how big your dick is. Fuck that.

Gotta go. Things to do.

 

[Pogo]

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

To call Dylan's song (It's All right Ma) "rap", would be to lower one of the greatest songs ever written to a subhuman, barbarian practice. But it was pre-rap, in that the airhead imitators of rap copied the song, and its talking blues, as we used to call it back in the 60s.

No, the rappers aren't close to Dylan or any of his songs. That is as sure as the sun and the moon.

It is NOT "talking blues". It's SUNG. Talking Blues would be the Dylan song I posted in response. A talking blues is NOT sung, it's talked. That's why it's called "talking".

It's Alright Ma hangs "horizontally" around a single note --- and carries an irregular extended verse form --- but it's still sung ON a note. If another singer performs the song, they would have to use the same music to sing it.

 

[Pogo]

Just to muddy these waters further --- here's a piece I always liked, but I wouldn't call it "music". I'd call it "Jazz Poetry"
"Jazz" because of the background, which gives an extra texture to listen to, and actually "breaks an artistic sweat". In actual adult terms. But it has no singing and cannot be properly termed a "song".

​

Again there may have been some anger in its conception ---- but it's gone to the trouble to be more than that with abstract conceptions ("televised", making muliple social comments simultaneously).

That's 1971 by the way, long before what we call "rap". See also the Last Poets.

If it were just pure anger it would sound more like "Fuck you, Pig" .

 

[Pogo]

"Rap"? Or "Spoken word"?

This is from 1955.

​

Ken Nordine is still around btw, in his mid-90s and doing his project he calls "word jazz". They too commonly feature music (especially jazz in his '50s work) and/or sound effects in the back as well as counterpoint voices.

But again I can't call this recitation a "song". You couldn't "sing" your own version of it. You could recite it. I would however call it "art" for its poetry and imagery.

 

[Montrovant]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.

1. You can certainly have angry creative improvisation. I'm not sure why you think anger cannot be creative. For that matter, I see no reason jazz cannot come from anger. And I can say both from personal experience and from seeing work from others that anger can lead to creativity.

2. You are operating under the assumption that rap = anger. That's just not true. I don't listen to rap, but I can easily see that not all rap is brought about from anger.
To give some evidence of this point, I looked up the best selling rap singles of all time, to get an idea of what the most popular rap songs are like. I briefly played each song on youtube (like I said, I don't listen to rap, so I wasn't familiar with most of them), with lyrics. This is not a list full of nothing but angry songs by any stretch. 12 Top-Selling Rap Singles Of All Time

So if your argument is that rap is not music because it comes from anger, that is pretty clearly untrue. Nothing requires rap to be based on anger.

If that is your argument, it would also seem to mean that most extreme heavy metal is not music, because it is clearly an angry style of music.

Of course, something else you seem to be overlooking is that while the music and/or lyrics of a song might be intentionally made to inspire or resonate with anger, that doesn't mean the songs have to be made by someone's anger. It is possible to write a song which inspires emotions that were not at all felt in the creating of the song.

3. Your statement about the minimal effort in making anger rhyme seems like it could apply to all lyrics, and further, to all rhyming poetry. Or is it somehow easier to make rhymes about anger than it is to make rhymes about other emotions?

Again --- can you think of any music, or any creative art form at all, that is made simply out of anger? I can't.
That's not what anger does. What it does is swing fists and shoot guns and break things. There's nothing in that that can be called "creative" .

And on #2, if you "don't listen to it" how can you go ahead and define it?

Sorry I won't bother with that link. I have no desire to go to that place. But again, that's a reaction I wouldn't have to opera or "Country" or Muzak or Justin Bieber, none of which I fancy but all of which actually are music whether I like it or not. The thing is -- neither Opera nor Country nor Muzak nor any other legitimate music exist to piss you off or to crow about how big your dick is. Fuck that.

Gotta go. Things to do.

That I don't listen to rap doesn't mean I have never heard rap, or that I can't go listen to any rap songs (which I did). It means I don't choose to listen to rap when I'm picking music to listen to for enjoyment. Despite not liking rap, not choosing to listen to it when I want to hear something I enjoy, I still know that not all rap is based on anger.

You also seem to be thinking of emotions as the same thing as creativity. Instead, I think that emotions may inspire creativity. Anger doesn't turn into a song, or a poem, or a painting, directly; anger inspires someone to create whatever art they may use as an outlet, just as sadness, love, or joy might inspire them. No creative art form is made out of an emotion. They are inspired by emotion. And, yes, I can certainly think of creative art that was inspired by anger. I have, in fact, created art myself that was inspired by anger, not to mention depression, or hatred, or fear, or any of the more "negative" emotions.

If you won't go to the link (which, by the way, only gives a list of the highest selling rap singles, it doesn't actually play the music), let me just say that the songs listed, and the lyrics to those songs, are not all about anger. Not even close. So your argument that rap comes purely from anger was untrue.

And now we're into a purely subjective discussion of what "legitimate" music is. Admittedly, what constitutes music is already a somewhat subjective thing, but it seems to me that you are using a personal definition which is not the norm. It reminds me of my own person definition of "sport": I only think of something as a sport if there is a direct competition between at least 2 players, where one can affect the outcome of the other. To me, golf is not a sport. Many of the Olympic competitions are not sport. They are competitions. I know that is my own personal definition, and not widely accepted.

I'm also curious of your take on a more "angry" style of music than rap, such as death metal. Is that, too, not music because it comes from anger? I've certainly heard people call it noise and not music before.

 

[Montrovant]

"Rap"? Or "Spoken word"?

This is from 1955.

​

Ken Nordine is still around btw, in his mid-90s and doing his project he calls "word jazz". They too commonly feature music (especially jazz in his '50s work) and/or sound effects in the back as well as counterpoint voices.

But again I can't call this recitation a "song". You couldn't "sing" your own version of it. You could recite it. I would however call it "art" for its poetry and imagery.

Are you saying the whole thing is not a song, or just the spoken word portion of it? And is a song only something you can sing?

 

[IsaacNewton]

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.

1. You can certainly have angry creative improvisation. I'm not sure why you think anger cannot be creative. For that matter, I see no reason jazz cannot come from anger. And I can say both from personal experience and from seeing work from others that anger can lead to creativity.

2. You are operating under the assumption that rap = anger. That's just not true. I don't listen to rap, but I can easily see that not all rap is brought about from anger.
To give some evidence of this point, I looked up the best selling rap singles of all time, to get an idea of what the most popular rap songs are like. I briefly played each song on youtube (like I said, I don't listen to rap, so I wasn't familiar with most of them), with lyrics. This is not a list full of nothing but angry songs by any stretch. 12 Top-Selling Rap Singles Of All Time

So if your argument is that rap is not music because it comes from anger, that is pretty clearly untrue. Nothing requires rap to be based on anger.

If that is your argument, it would also seem to mean that most extreme heavy metal is not music, because it is clearly an angry style of music.

Of course, something else you seem to be overlooking is that while the music and/or lyrics of a song might be intentionally made to inspire or resonate with anger, that doesn't mean the songs have to be made by someone's anger. It is possible to write a song which inspires emotions that were not at all felt in the creating of the song.

3. Your statement about the minimal effort in making anger rhyme seems like it could apply to all lyrics, and further, to all rhyming poetry. Or is it somehow easier to make rhymes about anger than it is to make rhymes about other emotions?

Again --- can you think of any music, or any creative art form at all, that is made simply out of anger? I can't.
That's not what anger does. What it does is swing fists and shoot guns and break things. There's nothing in that that can be called "creative" .

And on #2, if you "don't listen to it" how can you go ahead and define it?

Sorry I won't bother with that link. I have no desire to go to that place. But again, that's a reaction I wouldn't have to opera or "Country" or Muzak or Justin Bieber, none of which I fancy but all of which actually are music whether I like it or not. The thing is -- neither Opera nor Country nor Muzak nor any other legitimate music exist to piss you off or to crow about how big your dick is. Fuck that.

Gotta go. Things to do.

That I don't listen to rap doesn't mean I have never heard rap, or that I can't go listen to any rap songs (which I did). It means I don't choose to listen to rap when I'm picking music to listen to for enjoyment. Despite not liking rap, not choosing to listen to it when I want to hear something I enjoy, I still know that not all rap is based on anger.

You also seem to be thinking of emotions as the same thing as creativity. Instead, I think that emotions may inspire creativity. Anger doesn't turn into a song, or a poem, or a painting, directly; anger inspires someone to create whatever art they may use as an outlet, just as sadness, love, or joy might inspire them. No creative art form is made out of an emotion. They are inspired by emotion. And, yes, I can certainly think of creative art that was inspired by anger. I have, in fact, created art myself that was inspired by anger, not to mention depression, or hatred, or fear, or any of the more "negative" emotions.

If you won't go to the link (which, by the way, only gives a list of the highest selling rap singles, it doesn't actually play the music), let me just say that the songs listed, and the lyrics to those songs, are not all about anger. Not even close. So your argument that rap comes purely from anger was untrue.

And now we're into a purely subjective discussion of what "legitimate" music is. Admittedly, what constitutes music is already a somewhat subjective thing, but it seems to me that you are using a personal definition which is not the norm. It reminds me of my own person definition of "sport": I only think of something as a sport if there is a direct competition between at least 2 players, where one can affect the outcome of the other. To me, golf is not a sport. Many of the Olympic competitions are not sport. They are competitions. I know that is my own personal definition, and not widely accepted.

I'm also curious of your take on a more "angry" style of music than rap, such as death metal. Is that, too, not music because it comes from anger? I've certainly heard people call it noise and not music before.

I would diverge from Pogo some and agree that anger is certainly an emotion that is generated in the same place the other emotions are generated. And anger can be used to create 'art'. There are levels of art. A child making a finger painting is 'art'. But 99.9% of the time it isn't high art though the parents of the child would disagree. In no way can a child's finger painting be compared to the Mona Lisa. But the finger painting IS art. In fact children are the most honest expression of what we would consider art, even though their technique is extremely limited. It is similar to cave paintings we find from 30,000 years ago.

"Children and lunatics cut he Gordian Knot that poets spend a lifetime trying to untie." John Cocteau

The Gordian Knot - a knot tied to a cart that was so intricate and so tightly woven that it appeared to be impossible to untie. The myth that Alexander tried untying the knot but became frustrated and instead drew his sword and cut the knot instead. This of course is cheating and the weakest way to solve this puzzle. The great poets and artists do untie the knot, they do not cut it. Thus the quote, it is not an easy task or all people would be great artists.

Children have not been inculcated with the limits and self-limiting that most cultures place on people as they grow to adulthood. Their minds, like lunatics, are free and create purely. All artists seek this level of freedom but it is difficult once you've been 'herded' into the proper and mundane thought processes that most adults are required to learn and exhibit. Salvador Dali said "the only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad".

And of course there is the very rare child that is born with some inate skill to produce art that rivals highly skilled artists, but it does happen.

Your point Montrovant that a lot of heavy metal music comes from anger is a good one. It is more 'artistic' than bad spoken language poetry that comes from anger, but both of these do not rise to high art by any means. I would say some rap does rise to the level of art because of the intentional attempt by the artist to do just that, who puts a lot of thought and effort into their work. Most of it though is simply echoing someone sitting in a car or standing on a porch crowing how they are tougher than someone else and they'll murder anyone that comes up against them and do so in a proud arrogant way. It is fronting and again, usually the 'song' is junior high type of rhyming. If you want to be an artist with spoken word then at least put effort into elevating the poem above something you'd hear at an 8th grade spoken word poetry jam. This is the problem with 'music' that comes purely from anger without being filtered through and elevated by the lens of a real artist. It never rises above the level of the street. And again this speaks to people that LIVE in the street, it tells their story, but it does not engage the majority of humanity in anything but a shallow way.

And these are getting way to long.

 

[BULLDOG]

And here's an interesting article about creativity and brain function. At one point it specifically mentions rap, talking about studies done on creative improvisation from jazz musicians and rappers. The Real Neuroscience of Creativity

Thanks for that, I'll peruse the link But immediate reflex is that putting "rap" and jazz improvisation into the same sentence is absurd.

Why absurd? In both cases there is creative improvisation going on, although in different forms.

Because I don't believe anger is "creative improvisation", while jazz very much is. The minimal effort needed to make one's anger rhyme doesn't quite jump the threshold.

1. You can certainly have angry creative improvisation. I'm not sure why you think anger cannot be creative. For that matter, I see no reason jazz cannot come from anger. And I can say both from personal experience and from seeing work from others that anger can lead to creativity.

2. You are operating under the assumption that rap = anger. That's just not true. I don't listen to rap, but I can easily see that not all rap is brought about from anger.
To give some evidence of this point, I looked up the best selling rap singles of all time, to get an idea of what the most popular rap songs are like. I briefly played each song on youtube (like I said, I don't listen to rap, so I wasn't familiar with most of them), with lyrics. This is not a list full of nothing but angry songs by any stretch. 12 Top-Selling Rap Singles Of All Time

So if your argument is that rap is not music because it comes from anger, that is pretty clearly untrue. Nothing requires rap to be based on anger.

If that is your argument, it would also seem to mean that most extreme heavy metal is not music, because it is clearly an angry style of music.

Of course, something else you seem to be overlooking is that while the music and/or lyrics of a song might be intentionally made to inspire or resonate with anger, that doesn't mean the songs have to be made by someone's anger. It is possible to write a song which inspires emotions that were not at all felt in the creating of the song.

3. Your statement about the minimal effort in making anger rhyme seems like it could apply to all lyrics, and further, to all rhyming poetry. Or is it somehow easier to make rhymes about anger than it is to make rhymes about other emotions?

If you want to call rap poetry, I won't argue with you, but it just isn't music.

 

[Tehon]

Just to muddy these waters further --- here's a piece I always liked, but I wouldn't call it "music". I'd call it "Jazz Poetry"
"Jazz" because of the background, which gives an extra texture to listen to, and actually "breaks an artistic sweat". In actual adult terms. But it has no singing and cannot be properly termed a "song".

​

Again there may have been some anger in its conception ---- but it's gone to the trouble to be more than that with abstract conceptions ("televised", making muliple social comments simultaneously).

That's 1971 by the way, long before what we call "rap". See also the Last Poets.

If it were just pure anger it would sound more like "Fuck you, Pig" .

here's a piece I always liked, but I wouldn't call it "music".

That is music......to my ears.

 

[Pogo]

"Rap"? Or "Spoken word"?

This is from 1955.

​

Ken Nordine is still around btw, in his mid-90s and doing his project he calls "word jazz". They too commonly feature music (especially jazz in his '50s work) and/or sound effects in the back as well as counterpoint voices.

But again I can't call this recitation a "song". You couldn't "sing" your own version of it. You could recite it. I would however call it "art" for its poetry and imagery.

Are you saying the whole thing is not a song, or just the spoken word portion of it? And is a song only something you can sing?

The whole thing, and yes.

There is a really cheesy chorus in the back, and the orchestra even strangely gets top billing, but both of those are marketing moves that they thought they needed to sell the record.

Needles to say, pun intended, just because something is on a record doesn't mean it's a "song" .