One state solution - modified

Gaza's territorial sea and air space are controlled by Israel. It and land borders are controlled by Israel and Egypt. Hamas rules nothing, really.

Hamas made their bed. Perhaps they should have gone to anger management and worked on a different approach with Israel and Egypt.

No, the Western Powers, Britain and the European Jews that settled in Palestine made their bed, a long time ago. If European Jews had not settled and displaced the non-Jews, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It would be a failing economy. Palestinians need the jews. They need to work together.
If palestinians but as much energy into modernizing and improving agriculture, develop industry, open up more trade, establish tourism industry that is not threatened by Islam in the region.
Palestinians in gaza and the WB could have been doing these things but did very little. palestinians need the jobs created in building, factories, communication, medicine, education, tourism, agriculture, etc. that Israel have developed.
Palestinians did clear the swamps or learn to grow food in the desert. Palestinians didn't care to try.
Palestinians need the Israelis far more than Israelis need the palestinians.
 
Oh, that's strange.

Surely a regular freight and passenger service to local countries would improve Gaza's economy no end.
Which would bring economic stability and prospects to the city, in turn, giving the populace something to do, other than to hang around on street corners waiting for an EU handout, and get them interested in making money, like normal folk?

Why is there no such service?

Gaza no longer has an airport and the deep harbor that was being built for large ships to dock was never completed. Palestinians decided war was a better option.
Fishing is limited to within 6 miles. Gaza territorial water are a small triangle hemmed in by Israel and Egypt. Hamas has worked hard to alienate them both. Gaza was situated to become a rival to monte carlo with highrise hotels, beaches, casinos, entertainment, vacation attractions that could have accommodated large cruise ship, situated for tourism between Egypt and Israel, but it was never finished.
When Israel left homes and communities were demolish, green houses destroyed, farms untended or used by terrorists.
Palestinians had jobs created for them by Israelis and others were being trained in the hotel and tourism sector for future jobs. Gaza could have been very prosperous in a few years.



Yes. I would agree with a lot of that.

Only, Gaza, and all of Palestine need a partner for peace. Israel specifically.
Now I just knooow you are going to say Israel wants peace.

But they don't. If Israel gets a final settlement, with proper boundaries, it will have to give up its ambitions to take all of the West Bank. And you can see with the continuous illegal settlement building by Israel that that is what they want and are doing.

It really is beyond denial.
Will you be boring and try to deny it aris?
Or are we having a real conversation?
 
Hamas made their bed. Perhaps they should have gone to anger management and worked on a different approach with Israel and Egypt.

No, the Western Powers, Britain and the European Jews that settled in Palestine made their bed, a long time ago. If European Jews had not settled and displaced the non-Jews, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It would be a failing economy. Palestinians need the jews. They need to work together.
If palestinians but as much energy into modernizing and improving agriculture, develop industry, open up more trade, establish tourism industry that is not threatened by Islam in the region.
Palestinians in gaza and the WB could have been doing these things but did very little. palestinians need the jobs created in building, factories, communication, medicine, education, tourism, agriculture, etc. that Israel have developed.
Palestinians did clear the swamps or learn to grow food in the desert. Palestinians didn't care to try.
Palestinians need the Israelis far more than Israelis need the palestinians.

So, now you are a fortune teller. Israel is just the latest, hopefully the last, European colonial project. The whites said the same thing about the non-whites in South Africa and Rhodesia. It doesn't fly. In any case, you can't do anything when an Army of occupation controls your territory, collects your taxes, destroys your homes and infrastructure and often bombs the hell out of you.
 
Hamas made their bed. Perhaps they should have gone to anger management and worked on a different approach with Israel and Egypt.

No, the Western Powers, Britain and the European Jews that settled in Palestine made their bed, a long time ago. If European Jews had not settled and displaced the non-Jews, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
"We" ain't having a conversation. "You" are having a coversation whereby you spout your know-it-all propaganda and garbage and ignore and denounce any true facts. You are a paid Hamas propagandist and it's obvious. Right?

How can I apply for some Hamas money?
I will explain they will be fair game for being a corrupt bunch of undereducated wannabes, but hey, if there is free money going, :D

Apart from that, I agree with Monte. Except that the route cause is no longer the issue. The issue is "where do we go from here" not "Where should we have started from."
 
Oh, that's strange.

Surely a regular freight and passenger service to local countries would improve Gaza's economy no end.
Which would bring economic stability and prospects to the city, in turn, giving the populace something to do, other than to hang around on street corners waiting for an EU handout, and get them interested in making money, like normal folk?

Why is there no such service?

Gaza no longer has an airport and the deep harbor that was being built for large ships to dock was never completed. Palestinians decided war was a better option.
Fishing is limited to within 6 miles. Gaza territorial water are a small triangle hemmed in by Israel and Egypt. Hamas has worked hard to alienate them both. Gaza was situated to become a rival to monte carlo with highrise hotels, beaches, casinos, entertainment, vacation attractions that could have accommodated large cruise ship, situated for tourism between Egypt and Israel, but it was never finished.
When Israel left homes and communities were demolish, green houses destroyed, farms untended or used by terrorists.
Palestinians had jobs created for them by Israelis and others were being trained in the hotel and tourism sector for future jobs. Gaza could have been very prosperous in a few years.



Yes. I would agree with a lot of that.

Only, Gaza, and all of Palestine need a partner for peace. Israel specifically.
Now I just knooow you are going to say Israel wants peace.

But they don't. If Israel gets a final settlement, with proper boundaries, it will have to give up its ambitions to take all of the West Bank. And you can see with the continuous illegal settlement building by Israel that that is what they want and are doing.

It really is beyond denial.
Will you be boring and try to deny it aris?
Or are we having a real conversation?

I'll save my breath for someone else that really wants to know
 
If Arab armies didn't attack Israel in 1948

Arab armies were sent to stop Israel (Haganah) from executing Plan Dalet which was to expel as many non-Jews as possible that were in the partition area assigned to Jews. They would have been expelled either way, the Jews did not want 45% of the population to be non-Jewish as it was at the time of the partition.

'They would have been expelled either way'

There is absolutely no way to prove that. The fact remains, 5 Arab armies, who had nothing to do with the situation, invaded and attacked the newly founded state. You guys always find excuses as to why they did so, but the fact is they started the war and the plight of the refugees is on their hands.


“I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars.”
- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League
(Akhbar al-Yom, Egypt, October 11, 1947; quoted in David Barnett and Efraim Karsh, “Azzam’s Genocidal Threat,” Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2011)

“If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea… Even if we are beaten now in Palestine, we will never submit. We will never accept the Jewish state... But for politics, the Egyptian army alone, or volunteers of the Muslim Brotherhood, could have destroyed the Jews.”
- Hassan al-Banna, Muslim Brotherhood founder
(New York Times, August 2, 1948)

Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict
 
Oh, that's strange.

Surely a regular freight and passenger service to local countries would improve Gaza's economy no end.
Which would bring economic stability and prospects to the city, in turn, giving the populace something to do, other than to hang around on street corners waiting for an EU handout, and get them interested in making money, like normal folk?

Why is there no such service?

Gaza no longer has an airport and the deep harbor that was being built for large ships to dock was never completed. Palestinians decided war was a better option.
Fishing is limited to within 6 miles. Gaza territorial water are a small triangle hemmed in by Israel and Egypt. Hamas has worked hard to alienate them both. Gaza was situated to become a rival to monte carlo with highrise hotels, beaches, casinos, entertainment, vacation attractions that could have accommodated large cruise ship, situated for tourism between Egypt and Israel, but it was never finished.
When Israel left homes and communities were demolish, green houses destroyed, farms untended or used by terrorists.
Palestinians had jobs created for them by Israelis and others were being trained in the hotel and tourism sector for future jobs. Gaza could have been very prosperous in a few years.



Yes. I would agree with a lot of that.

Only, Gaza, and all of Palestine need a partner for peace. Israel specifically.
Now I just knooow you are going to say Israel wants peace.

But they don't. If Israel gets a final settlement, with proper boundaries, it will have to give up its ambitions to take all of the West Bank. And you can see with the continuous illegal settlement building by Israel that that is what they want and are doing.

It really is beyond denial.
Will you be boring and try to deny it aris?
Or are we having a real conversation?
Israel wants peace but they want Hamas to butt out and disappear.


More than two-thirds of the Jewish-Israeli public support the government’s decision to end the U.S.-brokered talks with the Palestinian Authority, according to a monthly Peace Index poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute and Tel Aviv University. Published on Wednesday, the concludes that 68 percent agree with the suspension of the peace negotiations.

Following Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas’s recent decision to move forward with the Fatah-Hamas unity deal (Fatah, which Abbas chairs, is the ruling party in the PA), Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called a halt to the peace negotiations with the PA and declared:

“Abu Mazen [aka Mahmoud Abbas] needs to choose between peace with Israel and an agreement with Hamas, a murderous terrorist organization that calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and which both the United States and the European Union define as a terrorist organization. As talks are still ongoing about extending the negotiations, Abu Mazen has chosen Hamas and not peace. Whoever chooses Hamas does not want peace.”


Majority of Israeli Jews Support End to Peace Negotiations | United with Israel
 
Abu Mazen and Hamas are now one and the same.

I won't make peace with the ones launching rockets on sacred southern land
 
If Arab armies didn't attack Israel in 1948

Arab armies were sent to stop Israel (Haganah) from executing Plan Dalet which was to expel as many non-Jews as possible that were in the partition area assigned to Jews. They would have been expelled either way, the Jews did not want 45% of the population to be non-Jewish as it was at the time of the partition.

'They would have been expelled either way'

There is absolutely no way to prove that. The fact remains, 5 Arab armies, who had nothing to do with the situation, invaded and attacked the newly founded state. You guys always find excuses as to why they did so, but the fact is they started the war and the plight of the refugees is on their hands.


“I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars.”
- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League
(Akhbar al-Yom, Egypt, October 11, 1947; quoted in David Barnett and Efraim Karsh, “Azzam’s Genocidal Threat,” Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2011)

“If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea… Even if we are beaten now in Palestine, we will never submit. We will never accept the Jewish state... But for politics, the Egyptian army alone, or volunteers of the Muslim Brotherhood, could have destroyed the Jews.”
- Hassan al-Banna, Muslim Brotherhood founder
(New York Times, August 2, 1948)

Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

"There is absolutely no way to prove that."

Come on, if the Israelis were able to execute 90% of Plan Dalet with Arab armies attempting to block them, without the Arab armies the few non-Jews that were not expelled would have been expelled too.

" 5 Arab armies, who had nothing to do with the situation"

They had nothing to do with the situation? You mean they should have stood by and allowed Israel to finish up its ethnic cleansing of the non-Jews without at least trying to help?

What does a Muslim Brotherhood leader have to do with anything. They were banned as an organization in 1948, as they are now.
 
More than two-thirds of the Jewish-Israeli public support the government’s decision to end the U.S.-brokered talks with the Palestinian Authority, according to a monthly Peace Index poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute and Tel Aviv University. Published on Wednesday, the concludes that 68 percent agree with the suspension of the peace negotiations.


You do realise that was AFTER they had ended, don't you?

At the end of March Israel reneged on its commitment to release prisoners. The talks ended.
Then the PA put signed documents to join all sorts of international bodies. Israel said that if they presented them, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. The PA presented them.
Then Fatah and Hamas agreed to settle their differences. Israel said that if they settled their differences, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. Twice. Fatah and Hamas settled their differences.

Now we have this survey saying that Israelis want Israel to end the discussions. The discussions ....

You get the picture?
Israel keeps hoping to hit the headlines with something positive for itself. It keeps missing, because people (and nations) are no longer credulous of its whiny LOOK AT MEE, LOOK AT MEE policies.

So, thank you for that headline.

I may just go look at my sock draw. :eusa_whistle:
 
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More than two-thirds of the Jewish-Israeli public support the government’s decision to end the U.S.-brokered talks with the Palestinian Authority, according to a monthly Peace Index poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute and Tel Aviv University. Published on Wednesday, the concludes that 68 percent agree with the suspension of the peace negotiations.


You do realise that was AFTER they had ended, don't you?

At the end of March Israel reneged on its commitment to release prisoners. The talks ended.
Then the PA put signed documents to join all sorts of international bodies. Israel said that if they presented them, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. The PA presented them.
Then Fatah and Hamas agreed to settle their differences. Israel said that if they settled their differences, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. Twice. Fatah and Hamas settled their differences.

Now we have this survey saying that Israelis want Israel to end the discussions. The discussions ....

You get the picture?
Israel keeps hoping to hit the headlines with something positive for itself. It keeps missing, because people (and nations) are no longer credulous of its whiny LOOK AT MEE, LOOK AT MEE policies.

So, thank you for that headline.

I may just go look at my sock draw. :eusa_whistle:
The prisoners weren't released because Abu Mazen said he was going to marry Hamas. Can't you get it through your pointy little head that the Palis don't want peace, never wanted peace and would resist and refuse peace even if all the Jews packed up and moved out. The wild ass is allergic to peace, even among his own kind.
 
More than two-thirds of the Jewish-Israeli public support the government’s decision to end the U.S.-brokered talks with the Palestinian Authority, according to a monthly Peace Index poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute and Tel Aviv University. Published on Wednesday, the concludes that 68 percent agree with the suspension of the peace negotiations.


You do realise that was AFTER they had ended, don't you?

At the end of March Israel reneged on its commitment to release prisoners. The talks ended.
Then the PA put signed documents to join all sorts of international bodies. Israel said that if they presented them, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. The PA presented them.
Then Fatah and Hamas agreed to settle their differences. Israel said that if they settled their differences, Israel would end the discussions. The discussions that had already ended. Twice. Fatah and Hamas settled their differences.

Now we have this survey saying that Israelis want Israel to end the discussions. The discussions ....

You get the picture?
Israel keeps hoping to hit the headlines with something positive for itself. It keeps missing, because people (and nations) are no longer credulous of its whiny LOOK AT MEE, LOOK AT MEE policies.

So, thank you for that headline.

I may just go look at my sock draw. :eusa_whistle:

Israel keeps hoping to hit the headline with something positive for itself.

They don't need to hope.
 
No. They can give up and accept that they are fast becoming revealed as a world pariah.

Most already knew this, but a lot of corporations were in denial.
 
The prisoners weren't released because Abu Mazen said he was going to marry Hamas. Can't you get it through your pointy little head that the Palis don't want peace, never wanted peace and would resist and refuse peace even if all the Jews packed up and moved out. The wild ass is allergic to peace, even among his own kind.


The renaged prisoner release ended the talks. The Palestinians walked away from them.

Only AFTER did a Fatah / Hamas union take place. And Israel is desperate to make it seem like it was wanted at the talks, when everybody knows they have only been a stalling tactic for more settlement building.

________

Now here's a thing, Hossfly.
Let's say after Pearl Harbour Japan saw the light and wanted to surrender nice and early. What if they wanted to only surrender to the Democratic party, but not the Republicans? Or the reverse?

The point is, you cannot make peace with a political party. You must make peace with the nation.
You cannot make a national treaty with a political party. You must make a national treaty between the nations. That is, the combined union of political interests.

Therefore while Hamas and Fatah were split Israel would only talk to one party, which was not able to speak for the whole nation of Palestine.

Israel - if they wanted peace - should be utterly DELIGHTED that they join together, so at least in the future there can be one negotiating team to represent ALL of Israel's opposition.

Now I know that. And they know that.
Surely you do too Hossfly. You have enough years to know that political parties don't make treaties...
 
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No. They can give up and accept that they are fast becoming revealed as a world pariah.

Most already knew this, but a lot of corporations were in denial.
Really now? 300 girls get kidnapped by Muslim animals for the crime of getting an education, Russia invades Ukraine, and you think the "world" is occupied" with what Israel does to a bunch of Palestinian terrorist animals? Ha ha ha.

Israel is enjoying record high approval ratings among Americans. How about you chew on that for a while.
 
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