Democracy: Syncretic In The Middle East

[ding]

Which citizens of Israel don't have equal rights?

Many of the rights accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not citizenship. Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality”.

 

[Shusha]

They currently don't have a state OR representation. The worst of both worlds.

Who is failing to give them representation? Their own government. Their government should be pressured to give them representation.

Can they decide who leaves and who enters their territories?

They can. What they can't decide is who enters Israel. Every country has a right to determine who enters their territory. The problem is that Palestine Areas A and B and completely encircled by Israeli territory. Until there is some future agreement between Israel and Palestine which cedes territory bordering another State, travelers to Palestine must go through Israel. Just like you need Canada's permission to drive between Washington State and Alaska. Just like San Marino, which is enclosed by Italy.

What about trade?

Palestinians export nearly $200 million a year. Mostly to Jordan and Israel.

How has the size of the territories controlled by the State of Palestine changed over time?

The territories have had no legal changes in administrative lines since the Oslo Accords. Same same.

 

[Shusha]

Many of the rights accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not citizenship. Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality”.

Such as?

 

[ding]

Such as?

Have you tried using google?

 

[Shusha]

Have you tried using google?

You are making a claim and can't back it up?

Which rights in Israel are based on nationality and not on citizenship? Be specific.

 

[ding]

You are making a claim and can't back it up?

Which rights in Israel are based on nationality and not on citizenship? Be specific.

Try using google.

 

[ding]

While all Israeli citizens possess the right to vote and hold office, they are not treated the same in practice. Legal and systemic disparities exist between Jewish and Arab citizens, particularly regarding land rights, housing, and budget allocations. The 2018 Nation-State Law further enshrined a hierarchical structure by defining national self-determination as unique to the Jewish people.

Key Disparities in Treatment:

• Land and Housing: Over 90% of land is controlled by the state or the Jewish National Fund (JNF), with significant portions restricted from purchase or lease by non-Jews. "Admissions committees" in many community towns are used to exclude Arab citizens.
• Legal Equality: While individual equality is guaranteed, Israeli law has rejected attempts to formally constitutionally mandate equality for all citizens. Over 65 laws have been identified by the Adalah Legal Center that directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinian citizens.
• Systemic Funding: Arab municipalities often receive significantly lower state funding per capita compared to Jewish municipalities, affecting infrastructure and education.
• Nationality vs. Citizenship: Israel differentiates between citizenship and nationality, with nationality (often categorized by ethnicity) influencing rights and state benefits.
  

While supporters argue that these measures are necessary to maintain the Jewish character of the state and that Arab citizens have the same voting rights and representation in the Knesset, critics argue that the system constitutes legal, social, and economic inequality.

 

[Shusha]

While all Israeli citizens possess the right to vote and hold office, they are not treated the same in practice. Legal and systemic disparities exist between Jewish and Arab citizens, particularly regarding land rights, housing, and budget allocations. The 2018 Nation-State Law further enshrined a hierarchical structure by defining national self-determination as unique to the Jewish people.

Key Disparities in Treatment:

• Land and Housing: Over 90% of land is controlled by the state or the Jewish National Fund (JNF), with significant portions restricted from purchase or lease by non-Jews. "Admissions committees" in many community towns are used to exclude Arab citizens.
• Legal Equality: While individual equality is guaranteed, Israeli law has rejected attempts to formally constitutionally mandate equality for all citizens. Over 65 laws have been identified by the Adalah Legal Center that directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinian citizens.
• Systemic Funding: Arab municipalities often receive significantly lower state funding per capita compared to Jewish municipalities, affecting infrastructure and education.
• Nationality vs. Citizenship: Israel differentiates between citizenship and nationality, with nationality (often categorized by ethnicity) influencing rights and state benefits.

While supporters argue that these measures are necessary to maintain the Jewish character of the state and that Arab citizens have the same voting rights and representation in the Knesset, critics argue that the system constitutes legal, social, and economic inequality.

You have no clue, do you? You pluck the first google result and think it proves your claim. It does not.

What RIGHTS are determined by nationality and not by citizenship?

 

[ding]

You have no clue, do you? You pluck the first google result and think it proves your claim. It does not.

What RIGHTS are determined by nationality and not by citizenship?

Feel free to show how it's wrong. Other than your say so that is.

 

[Shusha]

Feel free to show how it's wrong. Other than your say so that is.

Hey, you made the claim. My counter was simply to ask you for an example of a right which is based on nationality and not citizenship. Now you are admitting you made the claim with no factual information and can not provide even a single example. That is on you, not on me. (Also, I can't prove the negative, that there are no such laws).

Many of the rights accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not citizenship.

If there are many rights stemming from nationality and not citizenship, then just name one.

I am so very tired of this I-don't-know-which-river-and-which-sea-but-Israel-is-evil form of "discussion" which seems to have taken over the world.

 

[ding]

Hey, you made the claim. My counter was simply to ask you for an example of a right which is based on nationality and not citizenship. Now you are admitting you made the claim with no factual information and can not provide even a single example. That is on you, not on me. (Also, I can't prove the negative, that there are no such laws).


If there are many rights stemming from nationality and not citizenship, then just name one.

I am so very tired of this I-don't-know-which-river-and-which-sea-but-Israel-is-evil form of "discussion" which seems to have taken over the world.

Here

 

[Shusha]

Here

Doesn't list a single right which is determined by nationality and not by citizenship.

Here is a list of rights from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada):

Fundamental ​

• Freedom of conscience and religion
• Freedom of thought, belief, opinion, and expression
• Freedom of the press and other media of communication
• Freedom of peaceful assembly
• Freedom of association

Democratic ​

• Right to vote in federal, provincial, and territorial elections (Canadian citizens only)
• Right to run for public office
• Maximum duration of legislative bodies is five years, with exceptions in emergencies
• Annual sitting of Parliament and legislatures is required

Mobility ​

• Right to enter, remain in, and leave Canada (citizens only)
• Right to move and take up residence in any province
• Right to pursue livelihood in any province
• Protection against unreasonable residency requirements for social services

Legal ​

• Right to life, liberty, and security of the person
• Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure
• Freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment
• Right to legal counsel and habeas corpus
• Rights in criminal and penal matters, including:
• Presumption of innocence until proven guilty
• Protection against cruel and unusual punishment
• Protection against self-incrimination

Equality ​

• Right to equal protection and benefit of the law without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, color, religion, sex, age, or mental or physical disability

Language ​

• Official language rights for English and French in federal institutions
• Right to use either official language in Parliament and federal courts
• Minority language educational rights in provinces where numbers warrant

Limitations​

• Rights and freedoms are not absolute; they can be limited if justified in a free and democratic society under Section 1 of the Charter

This is just an example of rights. What rights for Israeli citizens are determined by nationality?

 

[ding]

Doesn't list a single right which is determined by nationality and not by citizenship.

Here is a list of rights from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada):

Fundamental ​

• Freedom of conscience and religion
• Freedom of thought, belief, opinion, and expression
• Freedom of the press and other media of communication
• Freedom of peaceful assembly
• Freedom of association

Democratic ​

• Right to vote in federal, provincial, and territorial elections (Canadian citizens only)
• Right to run for public office
• Maximum duration of legislative bodies is five years, with exceptions in emergencies
• Annual sitting of Parliament and legislatures is required

Mobility ​

• Right to enter, remain in, and leave Canada (citizens only)
• Right to move and take up residence in any province
• Right to pursue livelihood in any province
• Protection against unreasonable residency requirements for social services

Legal ​

• Right to life, liberty, and security of the person
• Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure
• Freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment
• Right to legal counsel and habeas corpus
• Rights in criminal and penal matters, including:
• Presumption of innocence until proven guilty
• Protection against cruel and unusual punishment
• Protection against self-incrimination

Equality ​

• Right to equal protection and benefit of the law without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, color, religion, sex, age, or mental or physical disability

Language ​

• Official language rights for English and French in federal institutions
• Right to use either official language in Parliament and federal courts
• Minority language educational rights in provinces where numbers warrant

Limitations​

• Rights and freedoms are not absolute; they can be limited if justified in a free and democratic society under Section 1 of the Charter

This is just an example of rights. What rights for Israeli citizens are determined by nationality?

Adalah – The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel – maintains a "Discriminatory Laws Database" (DLD) that documents over 65 Israeli laws enacted since 1948 which they argue discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel (Arab citizens) and Palestinians in the occupied territories.

These laws affect various aspects of life, including land ownership, citizenship rights, political participation, education, and cultural rights. Adalah classifies these as either explicitly discriminatory ("on their face") or, more frequently, as seemingly neutral laws that have a disparate impact on Palestinians.


Key Discriminatory Laws Highlighted by Adalah
While the full list exceeds 65, here are some of the most frequently cited examples from the database:
1. Citizenship and Residency Rights

• Law of Return (1950): Grants automatic citizenship to Jews from anywhere in the world, while denying this right to Palestinian refugees who fled or were expelled in 1948.
• Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003): Prohibits family unification when one spouse is an Israeli citizen and the other is a resident of the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), Syria, Lebanon, or Iraq, forcing families to separate or live apart.
• Citizenship Law Amendment No. 11 (2011): Allows for the revocation of citizenship of individuals convicted of "breach of loyalty" to the state (e.g., carrying out "acts of terror" or spying), which critics argue disproportionately targets Palestinian citizens.
  

2. Land and Housing Rights

• Absentees' Property Law (1950): Enabled the state to seize land, homes, and bank accounts of Palestinians who were forced to flee in 1948, defining them as "absentees," and transferring this property to the state or the Jewish National Fund.
• Admissions Committees Law (2011): Authorizes small, predominantly Jewish community towns to reject applicants for residency based on subjective criteria such as "social suitability," often used to exclude Arab citizens.
• Land Acquisition for Public Purposes Ordinance (1943 - Mandatory law utilized by Israel): Allows the government to confiscate land for public purposes, disproportionately impacting Arab-owned land.
  

3. Political Participation and Free Expression

• The "Nakba" Law (2011): Authorizes the Finance Minister to reduce funding or support to public institutions (e.g., municipalities, schools) that hold activities commemorating the Nakba (the 1948 Palestinian catastrophe) or opposing Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state".
• Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People (2018): Establishes that the right to self-determination in Israel is "exclusive to the Jewish People," demotes Arabic from an official language to one with "special status," and encourages Jewish settlement.
• Amendment to the Political Parties Law (Section 7A): Enables the disqualification of candidates or parties that deny the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, which critics argue is aimed at limiting Arab political representation.
  

4. Budgeting and Services

• Benefits for Discharged Soldiers Law (2008): Grants financial benefits and priority in housing/education to those who served in the military. Since most Arab citizens do not serve, they are systematically excluded from these benefits.
• Economic Efficiency Law (2009) - "National Priority Areas": Allows the government to direct state resources to specific areas, which is often implemented to exclude Arab communities from receiving similar support to Jewish communities.
  

Context on the Database

• Adalah's Perspective: Adalah argues these laws are part of an effort to "dispossess and exclude Palestinians from the land," "turn Palestinians' citizenship from a right into a conditional privilege," and maintain Jewish ethno-national supremacy.
• Counterpoints: NGO Monitor, a group that monitors NGOs, argues that Adalah uses a "loose definition" of discrimination, suggesting that many of the laws simply promote Zionism, use Jewish symbols (like the flag or menorah), or address security concerns, rather than acting as racist policies.
  

Note: The "Discriminatory Laws Database" is regularly updated, with recent reports indicating that post-October 2023 legislation has brought the total closer to 100 laws and bills.

 

[Shusha]

1. Citizenship and Residency Rights

• Law of Return (1950): Grants automatic citizenship to Jews from anywhere in the world, while denying this right to Palestinian refugees who fled or were expelled in 1948.
• Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003): Prohibits family unification when one spouse is an Israeli citizen and the other is a resident of the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), Syria, Lebanon, or Iraq, forcing families to separate or live apart.
• Citizenship Law Amendment No. 11 (2011): Allows for the revocation of citizenship of individuals convicted of "breach of loyalty" to the state (e.g., carrying out "acts of terror" or spying), which critics argue disproportionately targets Palestinian citizens.

None of these are comparisons of Israeli citizen to Israeli citizen. Each example is one of non-citizen.

2. Land and Housing Rights

• Absentees' Property Law (1950): Enabled the state to seize land, homes, and bank accounts of Palestinians who were forced to flee in 1948, defining them as "absentees," and transferring this property to the state or the Jewish National Fund.
• Land Acquisition for Public Purposes Ordinance (1943 - Mandatory law utilized by Israel): Allows the government to confiscate land for public purposes, disproportionately impacting Arab-owned land.

First is non-citizens. Last is complete unrelated to individual rights either by citizenship or nationality. (Yes, I snipped one, I'll come back to it after I refresh my memory on the Admissions Committee Law and its wording).

3. Political Participation and Free Expression

• The "Nakba" Law (2011): Authorizes the Finance Minister to reduce funding or support to public institutions (e.g., municipalities, schools) that hold activities commemorating the Nakba (the 1948 Palestinian catastrophe) or opposing Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state".
• Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People (2018): Establishes that the right to self-determination in Israel is "exclusive to the Jewish People," demotes Arabic from an official language to one with "special status," and encourages Jewish settlement.
• Amendment to the Political Parties Law (Section 7A): Enables the disqualification of candidates or parties that deny the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, which critics argue is aimed at limiting Arab political representation.

None of these remove rights from Arab citizens of Israel. But this is at least a discussable subject.

4. Budgeting and Services

• Benefits for Discharged Soldiers Law (2008): Grants financial benefits and priority in housing/education to those who served in the military. Since most Arab citizens do not serve, they are systematically excluded from these benefits.

Arab Israelis are not prohibited from serving. These benefits are available to them.

• Economic Efficiency Law (2009) - "National Priority Areas": Allows the government to direct state resources to specific areas, which is often implemented to exclude Arab communities from receiving similar support to Jewish communities.

Nothing to do with nationality of individual citizens.

Context on the Database

• Counterpoints: NGO Monitor, a group that monitors NGOs, argues that Adalah uses a "loose definition" of discrimination, suggesting that many of the laws simply promote Zionism, use Jewish symbols (like the flag or menorah), or address security concerns, rather than acting as racist policies.

Yep. I agree. Adalah stretches the definition to the breaking point. To be clear, though, I am not arguing that Israel doesn't suffer from discrimination. It does. As do all cultures and societies and nations.

But the claim was:

Many of the rights accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not citizenship.

 

[alang1216]

Who is failing to give them representation? Their own government. Their government should be pressured to give them representation.

I'm not trying to defend the PA but that doesn't justify Israel's actions.

They can. What they can't decide is who enters Israel. Every country has a right to determine who enters their territory. The problem is that Palestine Areas A and B and completely encircled by Israeli territory. Until there is some future agreement between Israel and Palestine which cedes territory bordering another State, travelers to Palestine must go through Israel. Just like you need Canada's permission to drive between Washington State and Alaska. Just like San Marino, which is enclosed by Italy.

Does Israel control the air space too?

Palestinians export nearly $200 million a year. Mostly to Jordan and Israel.

All of which is controlled by Israel

 

[Shusha]

I'm not trying to defend the PA but that doesn't justify Israel's actions.

But this is my point. What actions of Israel? Your original claim was that the people of the emerging State of Palestine should have democratic control over those who govern them. They are governed by the PA. We agree that they should have democratic control, but that is not Israel's responsibility. When we get into larger issues, such as security, borders, air space, international trade - those are all government-to-government issues. They require a governing body in Palestine to negotiate and work with the government of Israel to the benefit of the citizens of both States.

The problem I have with your initial post is that you are trying to make Israel responsible for the failures of the governments of Palestine and Gaza. Israel can not fix Palestine and Gaza. (Israel can do better, demonstrably, than can Palestine and Gaza).

 

[Shusha]

• Admissions Committees Law (2011): Authorizes small, predominantly Jewish community towns to reject applicants for residency based on subjective criteria such as "social suitability," often used to exclude Arab citizens.

ADMISSIONS COMMITTEES LAW (2011)

6C (C) The admissions committee will not refuse to accept a candidate for reasons of race, religion, gender, nationality, disability, personal status, age, parenthood, sexual orientation, country of origin, political-party opinion or affiliation. (emphasis mine).

 

[alang1216]

When we get into larger issues, such as security, borders, air space, international trade - those are all government-to-government issues. They require a governing body in Palestine to negotiate and work with the government of Israel to the benefit of the citizens of both States.

My admittedly weak knowledge of the details, tells me that Israel does not negotiate with the PA so much as dictate to them.

The problem I have with your initial post is that you are trying to make Israel responsible for the failures of the governments of Palestine and Gaza. Israel can not fix Palestine and Gaza. (Israel can do better, demonstrably, than can Palestine and Gaza).

I don't think the Palestinians would have difficulty pointing fingers at Israel for examples of how it has undermined them.

Palestinians and various observers frequently cite actions by Israel, such as the expansion of settlements, restrictions on movement, and military actions in the West Bank and Gaza, as significant, ongoing efforts that undermine Palestinian livelihood, self-determination, and the potential for a viable state.
Amnesty International +4

Key points often raised regarding these issues include:

• Settlements and Land Use: The continued construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank is widely considered illegal under international law, fragmenting Palestinian territory and impeding the creation of a contiguous state.
• Military Occupation and Restrictions: Human rights organizations frequently report on the impacts of the Israeli occupation, including restrictions on movement, house demolitions, and actions that limit economic development.
• Conflict in Gaza: The ongoing, and at times intense, military action in Gaza has led to significant destruction of infrastructure and loss of life, resulting in challenging humanitarian conditions.
• Failed Peace Efforts: Palestinians often hold Israel responsible for the collapse of peace negotiations, citing a lack of commitment to ending the occupation.
  The Forward +4

Conversely, some argue that these actions are necessary for security purposes, pointing to threats from armed groups, and note that the conflict involves complex issues on both sides.

 

[Shusha]

My admittedly weak knowledge of the details,

It is my most fervent wish that we soon return to times when people discussing this topic had a solid background of history, basic facts, legal concepts, primary documents instead of memes and AI overviews. Believe it or not, there was once such a time.

tells me that Israel does not negotiate with the PA so much as dictate to them.

Negotiations have somewhat soured since 1994, remembering that the Oslo Accords were intended to be a temporary stepping stone to a more-states solution. This status quo was never intended to be held for the long-term. The problem is that the governments of Palestine and Gaza are incapable of changing the status quo (see above on corrupt and failed governments), and Israel is condemned for unilaterally changing the status quo. (Of course, Israel is also condemned for keeping the status quo, even under the legal treaty agreements of the Oslo Accords. Sigh.) We are at an impasse.

• Settlements and Land Use: The continued construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank is widely considered illegal under international law, fragmenting Palestinian territory and impeding the creation of a contiguous state.
• Military Occupation and Restrictions: Human rights organizations frequently report on the impacts of the Israeli occupation, including restrictions on movement, house demolitions, and actions that limit economic development.
  • Conflict in Gaza: The ongoing, and at times intense, military action in Gaza has led to significant destruction of infrastructure and loss of life, resulting in challenging humanitarian conditions.
  • Failed Peace Efforts: Palestinians often hold Israel responsible for the collapse of peace negotiations, citing a lack of commitment to ending the occupation.

I could respond to these individually, but maybe better to hold onto the bigger picture. Since Israel is rather stuck with being unable to make the next move, what should the governments of Palestine and Gaza be doing to alleviate these issues for their citizens?

How can Palestine contribute to the creation of a contiguous state?
How can Palestine alleviate the passage of Palestinian citizens into and through Israel?
How can Palestine prevent house demolitions for Palestinian citizens living in Area C?
How can Palestine and Gaza contribute to their own economic well-being?
How can Gaza limit the use of military force by Israel on the population of Gaza?

 

[alang1216]

It is my most fervent wish that we soon return to times when people discussing this topic had a solid background of history, basic facts, legal concepts, primary documents instead of memes and AI overviews. Believe it or not, there was once such a time.

Negotiations have somewhat soured since 1994, remembering that the Oslo Accords were intended to be a temporary stepping stone to a more-states solution. This status quo was never intended to be held for the long-term. The problem is that the governments of Palestine and Gaza are incapable of changing the status quo (see above on corrupt and failed governments), and Israel is condemned for unilaterally changing the status quo. (Of course, Israel is also condemned for keeping the status quo, even under the legal treaty agreements of the Oslo Accords. Sigh.) We are at an impasse.


I could respond to these individually, but maybe better to hold onto the bigger picture. Since Israel is rather stuck with being unable to make the next move, what should the governments of Palestine and Gaza be doing to alleviate these issues for their citizens?

How can Palestine contribute to the creation of a contiguous state?
How can Palestine alleviate the passage of Palestinian citizens into and through Israel?
How can Palestine prevent house demolitions for Palestinian citizens living in Area C?
How can Palestine and Gaza contribute to their own economic well-being?
How can Gaza limit the use of military force by Israel on the population of Gaza?

As I recall, Oslo was supposed to lead to a 2-state solution but Israel has walked away from that. I don't think it is a case of good guys vs bad guys, it is more like two sides that want to win and don't want peace until they do.

The 1993 Oslo Accords aimed for a negotiated two-state solution but failed to produce a Palestinian state, leading to a permanent state of conflict. The process stalled due to issues like settlement expansion, security, and final-status disputes, with many analysts noting that Israeli leadership has since shifted away from supporting a sovereign Palestinian state.
Counterfire +4
Key points regarding the aftermath of the Oslo Accords include:

• Failure of the 2-State Objective: The Accords, designed as a five-year interim phase, became a permanent structure that did not lead to a Palestinian state.
• Settlement Expansion: Contrary to the spirit of negotiations, Israel tripled its settler population in the West Bank between 1993 and 2000.
• Shift in Israeli Politics: Current Israeli leaders, particularly in the ruling coalition, have increasingly rejected the concept of a Palestinian state.
• Alternative Realities: The situation has evolved into a "one-state reality" characterized by, as some describe, an "open-air prison" in Gaza and a fragmented West Bank.
  Al Jazeera +4