peacefan
Gold Member
i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
...
After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
...
and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
.. ..
it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).
but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.
all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
& wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!
IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.
i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
and i know the same is true in the USA.
if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).
i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").
and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.
----------------------------------------------------
[1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
...
After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
...
and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
.. ..
it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.
and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).
but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.
there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.
all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
& wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!
IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.
i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
and i know the same is true in the USA.
if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).
i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").
and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.
----------------------------------------------------
[1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less
