i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[Redfish]

Let Putin have the corrupt Ukraine, it means nothing to us. But the Biden family would lose its Ukrainian bribe money and that's really why we are supporting Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

Yes it is true. NATO and the US in fact, did provoke this war. Saying otherwise is foolish and reveals your lack of knowledge.

Your main cause is absurd. Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the fall of the USSR. Just as all the other former Soviet republics have. Does Russia want Ukraine to be an ally? Of course, just as we want nations bordering our country to be allies.

What is really foolish and absurd is trying to understand European events using a 30 years time span. That makes you highly uninformed and gullible.

 

[gipper]

What is really foolish and absurd is trying to understand European events using a 30 years time span. That makes you highly uninformed and gullible.

Oh really? We need to go back hundreds of years to understand, is that right? Okay tell me how long Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the time of Christ?

 

[ESay]

Oh really? We need to go back hundreds of years to understand, is that right? Okay tell me how long Ukraine has existed as a sovereign nation since the time of Christ?

Damn it. Are you intentionally draging this discussion on a kindergarten level or you really are there?

The history of a nation doesn't start at the point when it becomes a 'sovereign' nation. What a nonsense.

 

[gipper]

Damn it. Are you intentionally draging this discussion on a kindergarten level or you really are there?

The history of a nation doesn't start at the point when it becomes a 'sovereign' nation. What a nonsense.

Oh so tell me where we should start?

 

[Ringo]

In 1918 there wasn't NATO and 'American biolabs' but that didn't prevent the Russians from ruining newly formed Ukrainian state.

Which state? Until the end of 1918, most of Ukraine was under German occupation with the puppet regime of hetman Skoropadsky. After that, there was lot of states, changing with kaleidoscopic speed. Maybe you mean the Krivoy Rog-Donetsk Republic? Or the anarchist republic of Makhno?

 

[ESay]

Oh so tell me where we should start?

Actually, I already mentioned that above. Better so, to start with the ancient Rus state. To see the picture of East Slavic people's history in full.

But I advise you not to do so. Why put in the head meaningless stuff that will have no use in your life? We have what we have now. Russia wanting to have friendly states in their underbelly, and the states that don't want to be too 'friendly'.

That all doesn't matter. You know what matters the most? The current political developments in the US. The US disintegration or policy of isolationism (I don't know how real it is) will leave Russia unchecked and free to all deeds it wants.

 

[ESay]

Which state? Until the end of 1918, most of Ukraine was under German occupation with the puppet regime of hetman Skoropadsky. After that, there was lot of states, changing with kaleidoscopic speed. Maybe you mean the Krivoy Rog-Donetsk Republic? Or the anarchist republic of Makhno?

Not only that. UNR, ZUNR, Directorial, Kuban People Republic.

 

[AntonToo]

Yes. I’m glad you admit you’re a fool.

Anyone who posts anything opposing the establishment’s POV on the Ukraine War, is a Russian propagandist. I get it.

Wtf? Pure stupidity

 

[gipper]

You obviously don't get it.

No! I get it.

It’s an old tactic war loving Statists are duped by the establishment into employing in every war.

 

[AntonToo]

Let Putin have the corrupt Ukraine, it means nothing to us. But the Biden family would lose its Ukrainian bribe money and that's really why we are supporting Ukraine.

It means nothing to you maybe but bi-partisan majority of Americans disagree and support helping Ukrainians have their own country, because they believe Ukranians share our democratic values.

 

[BackAgain]

i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
...
After the Soviet Union (USSR) dissolved in 1991, the newly independent republics of Ukraine and Russia maintained ties. Ukraine agreed in 1994 to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and dismantle the nuclear weapons in Ukraine left by the USSR. In return, Russia, the United Kingdom (UK), and the United States (US) agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
...
and in my opinion that's what got the "balls roling, down the hills and mountains", towards a clash of superpowers.
you see, during the same time, NATO was advancing and prepping the Baltic states on the North-Western border of Russia to become part of the EU and NATO (Lithuania in 2004 - Member states of NATO - Wikipedia).
NATO and the EU were expanding East, suffocating Russia and driving the proverbial Russian bear into a corner.
Bears don't like to be cornered, nobody large or small, no people (large in number / small in number) like to be cornered by outside forces.
NATO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
AND YET, WE CLAIM TO BE THE RIGHTOUS ONES.
.. ..


it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.

and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).

but to sacrifice your own pawns on a massive scale (the inhabitants of the Donbass region[1]) when it is clear that the more capable Chess pieces of NATO are already in position to just keep slaughtering Russian forces and Donbass volunteers,
combined with a surprise massive and gruesome attack on the elderly of Ukraine to *try* to re-gain control of the grain and wheat production lands that Ukraine is in the North-West part of the Eastern world,
means that The West and Russia are now fighting a very long fight, a very bitter fight in the end, before political negotiations finally do settle this into some status quo.

there will be deep deep anomisity in the Ukraine region between the Ukranians and the Russian speakers as a result of that.
and immeasurable grief translated into fields of (symbolic) grave stones.

all because politicians couldn't hammer out a deal that maintained the peace.
& wanted leverage over eachother's political system and national infrastructure as basic as bread production!

IN NATO'S DEFENCE, AND THE EU'S DEFENCE :
i do believe there's a large number of citizens in the now westernized countries in Eastern Europe, that actually greatly prefer the western lifestyle over the Communist / Socialist lifestyle.
who got tired of the USSR, frustrated with the USSR's approach to governing, that they'll fight alongside NATO or on their own with NATO weaponry, even against their own countrymen and -women, to secure that promised freedom, promises made in movies and TV shows and by politicians that have secret corrupt deals with Western politicians to promote the West among the citizens of Eastern Europe.

i do believe that in the end, in about 3 to 5 decades, the citizens of Eastern Europe willl be dissapointed with the level of actual freedom that NATO and the EU grants it's citizens in the end.
i speak here as a Dutch man, middle class, and i know how bloody hard they've made it over here to break out of that middle class towards the rich end of the social spectrum.
and i know the same is true in the USA.
if you're not born rich, you're not educated with "conservative values" (meaning : keep all or most of your wealth to yourself at all times), and thus unfit to live as a rich person.
i'm going to try to prove to the world that one can be a conservative-capitalist-philantropist though. Keep most to myself, but occasionally be truly generous, both in money and in things like political honesty (as i do today).

i judge NATO and EU top-leaders to be guilty of crimes against humanity in the Ukraine region and in the regions supplied by Ukranian grain and wheat, but judge Russian top-leaders just as guilty.
they used these populations (in particular Ukranian vs Donbass) against eachother, to *try* to secure heavy amounts of leverage over eachother's political systems (Communism vs Capitalism), a huge gamble with decades worth of serious conflicts and thus heavy amounts of suffering that end up making news paper headline waves that over time decrease in both intensity (the power of how you phrase deaths happening) and frequency (reports from Ukraine vs more "current news").

and i believe the solution to be in peace negotiations with Russia withdrawing their claims on the Donbass-to-Crimea landstrip, and Russia building a new railroad east from Sebastopol which then turns North into Russia to connect with the train network there, IN EXCHANGE for a detailed and FAIR SHARE of the grain and wheat output of Ukraine.

----------------------------------------------------
[1] for which i had suggested that Putin would back down and build a trainline from that naval base in Sebastopol (Crimea) straight East and then North into actual Russian territories, on usmessageboard.com no less

Or let’s be correct and more concise.

• Did Russia invade Ukraine? Yes.
• Did Ukraine invade Russia? No.
• When Russia initiated the military action against Ukraine, was Ukraine a sovereign nation? Yes.
• Is Russia to blame? Obviously.

Bonus questions:

• Do Ukraine and Russia have an historic backstory explaining (not justifying) Putin’s behavior? Sure.
• Is Zelensky necessarily a damn Saint? Nope.
• Should the NATO nations (and the USA, in particular) be militarily involved in this war? In one sense; no. It’s not our fight. But in another sense; maybe. Failure to act earlier against Hitler was a poor choice. Maybe we don’t need to repeat mistakes?

My view is that Russia’s behavior is unacceptable. But I nevertheless recognize that a decision not to entangle ourselves in what might grow into a massive WWIII nuclear war has some merit.

 

[gipper]

Or let’s be correct and more concise.

• Did Russia invade Ukraine? Yes.
• Did Ukraine invade Russia? No.
• When Russia initiated the military action against Ukraine, was Ukraine a sovereign nation? Yes.
• Is Russia to blame? Obviously.

• Did the US invade (name that country)? Yes
• Did (name that country) invade the US? No
• When US initiated the military action against (name that country), was that country a sovereign nation? Yes
• Is US to blame? Obviously

No doubt you disagree, which means you’re a hypocrite and a statist dupe.

 

[BackAgain]

• Did the US invade (name that country)? Yes
• Did (name that country) invade the US? No
• When US initiated the military action against (name that country), was that country a sovereign nation? Yes
• Is US to blame? Obviously

No doubt you disagree, which means you’re a hypocrite and a statist dupe.

My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals.

And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks.
We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors.

But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action. And, now?

Can we undo history? Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING? Yes.

But your pointless is otherwise still useless.

 

[AntonToo]

Tell us more about Ukrainian democracy

Ukraine has been making progress on free and fair elections, constitutionally guaranteed rights, independent judiciary and other vertical separation of powers, freedom of speech and media independence, anti-corruption reforms.

Let me know which area you want to discuss in more detail, but in general Ukraine has commited itself to democratic reforms required to eventually integrate into European Union.

 

[gipper]

My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals.

And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks.
We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors.

But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action. And, now?

Can we undo history? Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING? Yes.

But your pointless is otherwise still useless.

No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression are a-okay.

 

[Ringo]

Ukraine has been making progress on free and fair elections, constitutionally guaranteed rights, independent judiciary and other vertical separation of powers, freedom of speech and media independence, anti-corruption reforms.

Pure crap. Food for idiots

 

[BackAgain]

No. My point is very obvious. Americans like to condemn Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, but think the USG’s constant imperialist wars of aggression is a-okay.

No. Your pointless presented hypotheticals which I chose to flesh out. Then I acknowledged that it. But then I noted something you remain to flaccid (brain wise) to acknowledge yourself.

That was in the PAST. We can’t undo the past. What Russia is doing is today. That is something we might still have some handle on your arrogance and presumptuousness get in the way of your ability to think logically.

 

[gipper]

No. Your pointless presented hypotheticals which I chose to flesh out. Then I acknowledged that it. But then I noted something you remain to flaccid (brain wise) to acknowledge yourself.

That was in the PAST. We can’t undo the past. What Russia is doing is today. That is something we might still have some handle on your arrogance and presumptuousness get in the way of your ability to think logically.

Apparently you’ve failed to learn from the past.

You think the past means nothing and you don’t know anything about current actions.

 

[BackAgain]

Apparently you’ve failed to learn from the past.

You think the past means nothing and you don’t know anything about current actions.

No such thing is apparent. You just make shit up on the fly. Gfy.