Is it possible that God changed Lucifer and angels in order to test mankind?

[Disir]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Either God is omnipotent or he is not. Which is it?

Judaism doesn't have an evil Lucifer like Christianity because that would be putting something as having equal power. The role he plays in Judaism is that of a prosecutor.

 

[Meriweather]

God doesn't seem to hear my prayers though I admit things are better for me then they were. I'm out of an unhappy marriage and I think I might have met the right woman for me. But I'll have to leave the Catholic Church if I want a future with her. So really, it's kind of a screwed up situation.

We went over this in the other thread; no need to leave the Church. That being the case, is it possible you are looking for a viable excuse to put aside your faith? If so, no excuse needed and no excuse will satisfy.

 

[Meriweather]

Judaism doesn't have an evil Lucifer like Christianity because that would be putting something as having equal power. The role he plays in Judaism is that of a prosecutor.

Correct. However, despite no Lucifer there have been periods in Judaism that address demons and/or devils.

 

[norwegen]

...those angels who leagued with Satan will not receive redemption

If so, then it would seem that Matthew 7:18 is inaccurate, correct?

You have to take that in context with the verses around it...

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The "tree" referred to in the verses are people.

Yes, trees are people. More specifically, they're nations. The tree called Babylon extended its branches to heaven and provided nourishment and rest to the birds and the beasts (Dn 4:4-18). That nation was a great tree under whose shade a multitude of peoples found sanctuary.

The Jewish nation was a tree to be cut down root and branch. “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees,” the Baptist declared (Mt 3:10). Jesus found no fruit on this tree, so cursed it (Mt 21:18-19; Mk 11:12-14). Generation after generation, this temple people bred hypocrites and murderers (see Matthew 23), and so was cut down (see Revelation).

 

[Disir]

Judaism doesn't have an evil Lucifer like Christianity because that would be putting something as having equal power. The role he plays in Judaism is that of a prosecutor.

Correct. However, despite no Lucifer there have been periods in Judaism that address demons and/or devils.

As heretics, akin to Christianity.

 

[norwegen]

...those angels who leagued with Satan will not receive redemption

If so, then it would seem that Matthew 7:18 is inaccurate, correct?

You have to take that in context with the verses around it...

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The "tree" referred to in the verses are people.

Yes, trees are people. More specifically, they're nations. The tree called Babylon extended its branches to heaven and provided nourishment and rest to the birds and the beasts (Dn 4:4-18). That nation was a great tree under whose shade a multitude of peoples found sanctuary.

The Jewish nation was a tree to be cut down root and branch. “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees,” the Baptist declared (Mt 3:10). Jesus found no fruit on this tree, so cursed it (Mt 21:18-19; Mk 11:12-14). Generation after generation, this temple people bred hypocrites and murderers (see Matthew 23), and so was cut down (see Revelation).

This is the context f Matthew 7:18, BTW, if you didn't make the connection. The scribes, Pharisees, chief priests, elders, and all the other false prophets of the temple wore sheep's clothing but really were wolves. They bore bad fruit, perpetuating their false teachings.

 

[Aletheia4u]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

In the Bible, Lucifer is referring to someone that God referred to them as being a morning star. A sign that day is coming. It was not referring to the devil. But it was referring to someone or a nation that had fallen away from God.
The devil was always dark. It was the darkness that God's spirit hovered over in the beginning. And then God created the Light which in the Book of John explains Who was the Light that God created in the beginning.
God who was the One who created the devil to use as a tool to purify our souls. He uses the devil to chastise us. That is why in the bool of Job God was the one who permitted the devil to attacked Job's family and property. But it wasn't allowed to lay its hand on Job's life.
The devil is the great manipulator that is pretending that it has control over its life. But all throughout the Bible, the dark angels obeyed God's commands.
In the Old testament. The prophets never mentioned anything about demons. It because the Israelites didn't know anything about demons. They have thought that all things came from God, and which it did. Even today, Jews doesn't believe in demons. They just considered them as God's chastising angels. But God is holy, He can only create but He cannot destroy. But He can transfer our souls from the body and put them into a herd of pigs or in the center of the earth to roam forever. But that is why the devil is trying to tempt Him into doing.
He had gotten upset with Moses when Moses made it seem as if God considered the Hebrews as being a nuisance and Moses was angry and impatient that he hit the rock instead of speaking to the rock to bring forth water. But Moses job was to portray God as being Holy, willing to help at all times, like the way the book of Jonah portrays God to be, holy.



John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.



2 Samuel 24:16
When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.



Luke 8:29
For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.



Luke 8:25
“Where is your faith?” he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, “Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him.”

 

[onefour1]

Doctrine and Covenants 122:7-8
7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?


Doctrine and Covenants 88:6
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

Jesus, in his atoning sacrifice, descended below all things and suffered all that he might be the Savior of all. Our suffering here on earth is but a very small degree of the suffering he went through. But now he is above all things and is the light of truth. Let us be humble and take our sufferings in all humility and know that they are but for a short time and then the Lord will bless us with everlasting kindness and love.

 

[K9Buck]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

In the Bible, Lucifer is referring to someone that God referred to them as being a morning star. A sign that day is coming. It was not referring to the devil. But it was referring to someone or a nation that had fallen away from God.
The devil was always dark. It was the darkness that God's spirit hovered over in the beginning. And then God created the Light which in the Book of John explains Who was the Light that God created in the beginning.
God who was the One who created the devil to use as a tool to purify our souls. He uses the devil to chastise us. That is why in the bool of Job God was the one who permitted the devil to attacked Job's family and property. But it wasn't allowed to lay its hand on Job's life.
The devil is the great manipulator that is pretending that it has control over its life. But all throughout the Bible, the dark angels obeyed God's commands.
In the Old testament. The prophets never mentioned anything about demons. It because the Israelites didn't know anything about demons. They have thought that all things came from God, and which it did. Even today, Jews doesn't believe in demons. They just considered them as God's chastising angels. But God is holy, He can only create but He cannot destroy. But He can transfer our souls from the body and put them into a herd of pigs or in the center of the earth to roam forever. But that is why the devil is trying to tempt Him into doing.
He had gotten upset with Moses when Moses made it seem as if God considered the Hebrews as being a nuisance and Moses was angry and impatient that he hit the rock instead of speaking to the rock to bring forth water. But Moses job was to portray God as being Holy, willing to help at all times, like the way the book of Jonah portrays God to be, holy.



John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.



2 Samuel 24:16
When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.



Luke 8:29
For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.



Luke 8:25
“Where is your faith?” he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, “Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him.”





View attachment 433304

Interesting. Thank you!

 

[K9Buck]

Thank you to flacaltenn and other moderators who cleaned up this thread and saved it from the trolls. Without them, the atheists would destroy every thread in this forum.

 

[LittleNipper]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

I don't know you and I didn't know your mother; HOWEVER, I have met individuals whose only reason for coming to a saving knowledge of the blessed MESSIAH/CHRIST (both mean the same) was by experiencing loss and terrible headship. Personally, I'd much rather come to the LORD suffering now, then have a good-time here and experience pain and suffering for an eternity because I believed every day was all about me being happy.

 

[occupied]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

I don't know you and I didn't know your mother; HOWEVER, I have met individuals whose only reason for coming to a saving knowledge of the blessed MESSIAH/CHRIST (both mean the same) was by experiencing loss and terrible headship. Personally, I'd much rather come to the LORD suffering now, then have a good-time here and experience pain and suffering for an eternity because I believed every day was all about me being happy.

Pascal's wager? My answer to that is that I can either go around wanting to punch God in the face or I can just let my broken faith go and have some peace in whatever life I have left.

 

[LittleNipper]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

I don't know you and I didn't know your mother; HOWEVER, I have met individuals whose only reason for coming to a saving knowledge of the blessed MESSIAH/CHRIST (both mean the same) was by experiencing loss and terrible hardship. Personally, I'd much rather come to the LORD suffering now, then have a good-time here and experience pain and suffering for an eternity because I believed every day was all about me being happy.

Pascal's wager? My answer to that is that I can either go around wanting to punch God in the face or I can just let my broken faith go and have some peace in whatever life I have left.

Sorry, but why not just talk this over with the LORD through prayer. HE's strong and I'm sure that HE would enjoy any consideration on your part. Frankly, I find that everyone seems to get mad at GOD, but not at the adversary. Satan brought all this misery into the world.

 

[anotherlife]

According to Ezekiel, Lucifer was the cover stone, the skin of the creation. What corrupted Lufifer? If an infection enters the body, often it enters through the skin. So it is logical that Lucifer got the deceased first.

What was the infection. ? It could be parts of God's original creation, which were destined to for a new separate world, like when in biology a cell divides .

if cell division malfunctions, then pieces of the cell that were supposed to form the second cell find a lack of supporting organs and rven nutrients, so they try to turn back and get back their old place in the original cell.

But since the old place is gone, all you get is a genetic code compatibility, which enables the returning material to act as a virus.

Voila, Satan is hereby explained in terms of cell biology. Very dangerous, because no vaccine exists against viral infection.

 

[LittleNipper]

According to Ezekiel, Lucifer was the cover stone, the skin of the creation. What corrupted Lufifer? If an infection enters the body, often it enters through the skin. So it is logical that Lucifer got the deceased first.

What was the infection. ? It could be parts of God's original creation, which were destined to for a new separate world, like when in biology a cell divides .

if cell division malfunctions, then pieces of the cell that were supposed to form the second cell find a lack of supporting organs and rven nutrients, so they try to turn back and get back their old place in the original cell.

But since the old place is gone, all you get is a genetic code compatibility, which enables the returning material to act as a virus.

Voila, Satan is hereby explained in terms of cell biology. Very dangerous, because no vaccine exists against viral infection.

What got into Satan was the disease known as PRIDE and SELF AGGRANDIZEMENT. He wished to be GOD, and in GENESIS he motivates both Eve and Adam to behave the very same way. In other words, Satan in serpent form suggests that they didn't hear GOD correctly, that GOD just didn't want them to be like HIM, and that GOD was a liar. Go read it for yourself in Genesis.

 

[ding]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Everything God creates is good. Evil is the absence of good. Nothing God created is evil. So whether you hold the view that God withdrew His Spirit from Satan and therefore Satan is absent good or you hold the opinion that Satan is an angel whose job is to test us, the concept that God can only create good holds true. It is for that reason that I don't believe God destroys what He creates because what He creates is good.

 

[ding]

Is it possible that, in the end, God will destroy evil but will also transform Lucier and his angels back to loyal servants?

Lucifer and other angels rebelling against God seem inconsistent with the following verse.

I'm reminded of the Disney movie "Beauty and the Beast". In the end, the beast is "destroyed" and is transformed back into a handsome prince.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

The fallen angel Lucifer can't do anything God wouldn't allow him. Look at the book of Job: Satan is a liar and a murderer. There's nothing he'd like more than to kill every living being.

And yet, God allowed Satan to test Job, but God doesn't allow him to kill Job.

I used to believe at one time that the reason Satan revolted against heaven and took one-third of the angels with him, was because God lost control over him. That is not true, so obviously God had to allow that.

As for redemption of Satan and the one-third of those angels who followed him in the war against heaven, no. Absolutely not. Revelations 20:10 states that he will be thrown “into the lake of burning sulfur… [He] will be tormented day and night forever and ever”

Remember, angels are merely "messengers." They're not as loved by God as His own creation, which would be mankind. He created us in His own image, not the angels.

There is a Jewish thought that explains Job differently. That Satan is an angel who works for God. Satan's job is to test man by tempting man. The Christian view is that Satan and man are fallen. That we reject God. As near as I can tell this view is impossible to reconcile with an all knowing God. It just doesn't make sense to me. My interpretation is that the material world was never intended to be free of defects and will never be free of defects. That defects are an artifact of a material world. But the defects serve an important purpose. They test us. They challenge us. Everything works for good, especially the defects. Defects are intricately tied to free will. We can choose how we view and respond to the material world. We can choose to make good choices. We can choose to make bad choices. We can choose to own and learn from our bad choices. I believe everyone has the Spirit of God within them and that everyone is being pruned by God.

 

[ding]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

Don't be surprised if God - who is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness - has an answer to that.

 

[occupied]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

Don't be surprised if God - who is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness - has an answer to that.

I understand your impulse to lead me to salvation but that ship has sailed. I live a highly moral life and I do not ridicule people for their faith. That is going to have to be enough.

 

[ding]

occupied Aren't you an atheist?

I am a former believer who cannot forgive God for the evil in the world. If I should ever stand before him in judgement he's going to have to explain the purpose of my mother's horrible cruel lingering death.

Don't be surprised if God - who is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness - has an answer to that.

I understand your impulse to lead me to salvation but that ship has sailed. I live a highly moral life and I do not ridicule people for their faith. That is going to have to be enough.

You are mistaken. What you choose to do is between you and God. I'm not affected either way. There is no impulse on my part. I think it is silly to believe there is no God because God isn't magical enough for you. A balanced view would see a more complete picture; the good and the bad and weigh them accordingly.