Is it God or Nature?

Not for awhile you didn’t. You were literally equivocating God with nature when you quibbled with my wording. I on the other hand was firm in my belief that God is not nature and nature is not God. The painter is not the painting. You quibbled over that too.
My argument was perfectly consistent.
I addressed your logical fallacy giving the Jewish perspective.
Now you just pretend to own that which you didn't get until explained 'on fingers'.
rylah, do you consider Nature to be infinite?

As far as I understand -
physical creation, nature is fundamentally confined by measurement.
So we all agree that an infinite Creator is more than the finite quantity of Nature?

I think the Creator formed the universe of His own energy, like a painter painting with his own blood for a pigment.

Nature is divine as it reflects the mind of God, but I dont think it is accurate to equate the two concepts.
Floods, tornadoes, disease reflects the mind of the gods?
 
sometimes you're just funny that is the providence of the Almighty alone to take lives and said they would not intervene again - however in your case maybe a little bend in the rule would be both welcome and fitting.

I'm tired of explaining. Adam is the one who doomed us to lives of flesh and blood with his sin Thus, we all have to die.

You belittle Satan. He is quite powerful as he is "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." One of the things we are finding is the coronavirus can travel further through the air after it is expelled from a person. It's not just 6' as thought. Most situations with shelter in place, it is that but the virus can travel further than that through the power of the air.
 
Not for awhile you didn’t. You were literally equivocating God with nature when you quibbled with my wording. I on the other hand was firm in my belief that God is not nature and nature is not God. The painter is not the painting. You quibbled over that too.
My argument was perfectly consistent.
I addressed your logical fallacy giving the Jewish perspective.
Now you just pretend to own that which you didn't get until explained 'on fingers'.
rylah, do you consider Nature to be infinite?

As far as I understand -
physical creation, nature is fundamentally confined by measurement.
So we all agree that an infinite Creator is more than the finite quantity of Nature?

I think the Creator formed the universe of His own energy, like a painter painting with his own blood for a pigment.

Nature is divine as it reflects the mind of God, but I dont think it is accurate to equate the two concepts.

Basically agree,
the blood comparison might not be, but agree.

Now regarding 'divine', here I think our definitions are totally split.
There's a term in Hebrew, not sure it translates - "Kedushah", and English is not my mother tongue, but if I still try to work with 'divine', if understand it as You do, then:

I'd say everything is essentially divine in creation by virtue of its Source,
but Kadosh is limited to bare minimal, yet it's not the mere fact of being confined to the minimal that makes it Kadosh, rather Who sets aside that minimal for Himself to be Kadosh.

Makes sense?
 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.
 
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

Why would there have to be a "reasoning" behind it?

Start there.
There is a "reason", however, aka "explanation".
Philosophers & scientists look for explanations, no?
For example, "How did the pandemic originate, and how did it spread so quickly?"
....that's HOW--not WHY..this is a critical difference in all the '''god''' discussions

Exactly, thank you. The question presupposes that events are "intentional" on the part of --- whatever. That it was "caused" for a "purpose". That's assuming a dynamic which is not in evidence.
Exactly, thank you. The question presupposes that events are "intentional" on the part of --- whatever. That it was "caused" for a "purpose". That's assuming a dynamic which is not in evidence.
evidevce is in the eye of the beholder ...

covid certainly seems to have an intention in selectively chosing humanity as its target some what the same as gun lovers that shot wildlife just to kill it and maybe it's a meal for either - there is little more to say for a purpose than to vote republican. why rock the boat. all hail the tramp.
If the gods are the author of all, the all-knowing, all seeing gods are responsible for all.
,
If the gods are the author of all, the all-knowing, all seeing gods are responsible for all.
if that is from whence we came and with the variety of living beings there definitely seems a message of - just about anything goes ... few strings attached.

so, no they are not responsible for the actions taken on planet Earth. the return trip is another matter.

seriously, is there a difference between gun lovers murdering everything on planet Earth and covid doing the same thing to humanity ...
Oh gawd yes, there’s a difference. I’m not convinced that gun lovers are murdering everything on planet earth but comparing humans damaging the planet as opposed to the Chinese virus, yes, there are obvious differences.
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

If it was God, you wouldn’t have to ask the question.
Similarly, if it was Lord Vishnu.

Oh gawd yes, there’s a difference. I’m not convinced that gun lovers are murdering everything on planet earth but comparing humans damaging the planet as opposed to the Chinese virus, yes, there are obvious differences.
.
they are not alone ... a good many are.


obvious differences, not sure I agree with that either.

when one has eliminated the other (shortage of bats), the obvious choice is the one that is still remaining - the virus is obviously not stupid.
In my opinion, the differences are obvious. We live in an imperfect world because we are imperfect and often make poor decisions. We write our own destiny and we are responsible for the kind of world we live in.

On the other hand, the Chinese coronavirus, as best we know, was a product of morphing out of the biological soup in a Chinese fish / live animal market. That was an unguided, undirected process of nature that has no will or intent. A tornado has no intent to squash one home vs. another in the same way that proteins have no intent to assemble into coronavirus.
 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.
Could you take the Jimmy Swaggert style proselytizing elsewhere please?
 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.

Except that there is no proof at all that "God" wrote anything, while there is ample and endless proof that humans did.


CircularReasoning(slower).gif
 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.

Except that there is no proof at all that "God" wrote anything, while there is ample and endless proof that humans did.


CircularReasoning(slower).gif

What you are referring to with circular reasoning is evolution. With God's word, the kings of the time got involved. They put what was written under scrutiny. One had to verify it was God's word by comparing what was written to that by another Bible writer. If they matched, then it was considered valid. Thus, we have several writers describe the teachings, statements, or ideas presented in the Bible verse.

With evolution, we don't have such scrutiny. We had the big bang theory (which isn't really theory worthy), but regardless it's explained with invisible particles. Another theoretical physicist comes up with cosmic expansion and the idea spreads. It is considered a theory when there seems to be a consensus. Those scientists who oppose aren't even included in the peer review anymore. In fact, Stephen Hawking's scientists working under him found the fine tuning parameters when looking at how to describe and explain the big bang. It went against their theory, so they discarded it and the creationists took it as their finding helped them. One can't even find this admission by Hawking anymore. This is a good example of circular reasoning. It's what the creationists call the evolution of the gaps.

We can do the same with long time that theory of evolution required. Darwin was the one who explained ToE, but required long time. I think the scientists of his time got the age of the Earth to around 3 billion years, but it wasn't enough. Darwin died not knowing if any of his ideas had merit. We find that most of his hypothesis were wrong such as "survival of the fittest." Long time only is valid if it fits the criteria established by Darwin. Common sense tells us nothing can last that long even galaxies.
 
hahhahaha
there is no god--no one can prove it = there's your answer--yes--stuff happens in nature without god
...you like how I answered your question? your welcome
I take it you're a subscriber to the big bang theory, yes?
..I'm a subscriber to if it's not proven = bullshit --not true
Well it’s been proven that the universe literally popped into existence ~14 billion years ago and was created from nothing.

If that doesn’t give you pause for concern, I don’t know what will.
Well it’s been proven that the universe literally popped into existence ~14 billion years ago and was created from nothing.
.
- only by your limited mentality ...

obviously what "popped" into existence was a preset construction meant for that purpose by the radiant metaphysical forces that similarly are in control now after the event.
Cool story, bro. Can you tell it in English?

God has always existed as the matrix or source of the material world. God is glorified through his creation and he shares in our experiences.

God has always existed as the matrix or source of the material world. God is glorified through his creation and he shares in our experiences.
.
that's not what you said -

energy - matter > the metaphysical, both sides of cyclical singularity ... not hard to understand at all.
.
hopefully there is guidance to the metaphysical as in practicality exists in all beings on Earth - just not found in the forged writings of the desert religions.
Apparently you don’t understand what I said if that is your conclusion. Your use of the word metaphysical means nothing to me in the context of this discussion. There is no cyclical singularity. You don’t even know what singularity means in the context of this discussion. A singularity isn’t a physical or metaphysical event. A singularity is the point in which Friedmann’s solution to Einstein’s field equations yield infinite values. It’s a mathematical thing. It isn’t some physical phenomenon.

the only thing - which in reality is no thing - that has no beginning and has no end is God. The universe had a beginning. The universe was created from nothing by the Creator.

There has only been one revealed religion where God sought man. All other religions are men seeking God.
 
RE: Is it God or Nature?
※→ ding, Meriweather, et al,

BLUF: IF the existence of the Supreme Being is assumed, THEN working with the Supreme Being is unnecessary.

How does God work within?
The better question might be how does one work with God?
(COMMENT)

Also, the other edge to the sword says, IF there is one belief system with a bone fide deity, then there may be more in the supernatual realm.


index.png

Most Respectfully,
R
Why?
 
No....and I am completely flummoxed on how you reached that conclusion.
I read it straight on and people have kooky beliefs so I mistook what you meant.

After rereading it based on your response I understood the context.
 
where is the proof of god?
First define what you mean by 'god'.

Then read Aristotle, Plato, and Thomas Aquinas.

Maybe then you can seriously ask the question, dude.
....you also do not provide any proof....you people keep babbling a lot of crap and NOT providing proof = I am right
What proof do you want? What proof will you accept?

There is no proof good enough. Thus, it is after they die as prophecized in Revelation and "every eye will see." It is guaranteed to shake them up to the core and one will not forget it after they have experienced it.
 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.
Could you take the Jimmy Swaggert style proselytizing elsewhere please?

On a lighter note, if you can call it that, we see that monkeys still do not walk bipedal but they have been hard hit due to stress, too. I can't tell if it's a satire site or not anymore.

Monkeys and apes chain smoking cigarettes as coronavirus panic grips planet
Zoo animals have been unable to kick their tobacco habit as the killer pandemic sweeps the globe

"Stressed-out primates have taken to chain smoking cigarettes as the coronavirus crisis rages across the globe.

Monkeys and chimps have failed to kick the habit as entertained visitors are seen to laugh as the animals spark up amid the pandemic.

In Cambodia, one man took to social media to share a video, titled ‘By 2020 even monkeys can smoke’, which shows a tiny macaque in a pen smoking a cig as another looks on.

The animal is seen to take repeated drags while looking thoughtfully into the distance, as a group of men laugh hysterically and take pictures on their phones.

It seems that as worried humans panic over the pandemic unfolding around them, their stress has rubbed off on monkeys who are reaching for the smokes."

 
.....you people talk about satan and god---these are just made up fairytales by humans....

Wrong again. It's God's word from his autobiography -- the Bible. He was Lucifer and was the best looking, most perfect and powerful of God's angels. He was the consensus (by God and the other angels) overall #1 draft pick like LeBron. His power went to his head and he wanted to be "like God." That was his sin and downfall. And thus, he was banished and had the Lake of Fire created for him and his demon followers. He became Satan and you honor him by referring to him as "god." He won't be happy being called "satan," so I'd beware. Wear your mask when going out.
Could you take the Jimmy Swaggert style proselytizing elsewhere please?

On a lighter note, if you can call it that, we see that monkeys still do not walk bipedal but they have been hard hit due to stress, too. I can't tell if it's a satire site or not anymore.

Monkeys and apes chain smoking cigarettes as coronavirus panic grips planet
Zoo animals have been unable to kick their tobacco habit as the killer pandemic sweeps the globe

"Stressed-out primates have taken to chain smoking cigarettes as the coronavirus crisis rages across the globe.

Monkeys and chimps have failed to kick the habit as entertained visitors are seen to laugh as the animals spark up amid the pandemic.

In Cambodia, one man took to social media to share a video, titled ‘By 2020 even monkeys can smoke’, which shows a tiny macaque in a pen smoking a cig as another looks on.

The animal is seen to take repeated drags while looking thoughtfully into the distance, as a group of men laugh hysterically and take pictures on their phones.

It seems that as worried humans panic over the pandemic unfolding around them, their stress has rubbed off on monkeys who are reaching for the smokes."

Why do you feel a need to spam the thread?
 
I’m just trying to understand the role God plays in your life from a practical aspect point of view. And by that I mean to say how does he make his presence and will known to you?
As you probably know, these things are very hard to explain. Once, as a child, I innocently asked to see something...and I saw. I believed in God before, but now I knew. Later on, as an adult there have been a couple of times where the love of God simply came upon me. It is unmistakable. Twice, there was an unknown dog, both who just happened to be nearby. Both times they suddenly raced away from their owners and joyfully jumped into my arms. Then, just as suddenly, they looked confused and I set them down. (One was fairly large.) Both owners were astounded, and both told me (on these separate occasions) their dogs never acted like that, that their dog didn't care for strangers. Considering how quickly the dogs went on to ignore me, I had no reason to doubt them.

There were a couple of other times where the voice of God filled my mind. Even despite my earlier experiences of God, I wasn't about to quickly jump into honoring God's request. Brains can be tricky, as everyone in this day and age is well aware. But the improbable sign occurred, and the message I was given to relate to another person was received in astonishment and awe--because while the message held little meaning for me, it held great meaning to the one receiving it.

I know this makes little sense to anyone else, as it makes little sense to me. I asked God why He couldn't personally deliver His own messages. Now God returned to His usual mysterious self. I didn't need to know His reasons.

But let's go back to normal, day-to-day prayer, which has been ninety-nine percent of the time. Remember the story of Moses, where when God passed directly in front of Moses, He had to cover Moses eyes. Moses only saw God after He had passed--i.e., in what we would call hindsight. Almost always, I can only see God's activity in my life--His fingerprints if you will--in hindsight. He is an expert on not letting His left hand know what His right hand is doing.
 
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

Why would there have to be a "reasoning" behind it?

Start there.


sheeeeesh POGOID-------viruses don't have brains??? RACIST!!!!!!
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Good question. IF the official reason for how these viruses start is true, then yes, I would say that this is a consequence of mankind going against God's perfect will. In other words, reaping what we sow. Eating animals was not part of God's original design, and it is not part of God's eternal plan, according to the bible. It is something that mankind does because this is a fallen world, and simply because people want to do it, despite the numerous negative consequences, both on an individual and global scale.

People like to say "Well this happened because the Chinese eat weird things and they have filthy conditions in their markets." But the truth that no one wants to talk about is that even here in the Western world, the conditions are horrible in the animal industries, filthy and disgusting, and many of the animals are sick. That is why the animals are given antibiotics, but the problem is that antibiotic resistance occurs, so sometimes infections become untreatable, and then people eat those sick animals. I know that people don't want to believe that, but keep in mind that animals are literally standing in their own feces, some have open wounds, prolapses, some have abscesses filled with pus, I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. As a vegan and a Christian I absolutely believe that God wants us to give nonhuman animals a rest. I think we're getting very near that time of "rest", but that's a different topic.

Again, all that is assuming that the official reason is actually true. As I'm sure people realize, there are different theories about how it originated, including some very controversial theories.
I agree that ALL sentient animals should be treated with respect.

how many sentient animals do you know.......personally?
 
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

Why would there have to be a "reasoning" behind it?

Start there.


sheeeeesh POGOID-------viruses don't have brains??? RACIST!!!!!!
Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Good question. IF the official reason for how these viruses start is true, then yes, I would say that this is a consequence of mankind going against God's perfect will. In other words, reaping what we sow. Eating animals was not part of God's original design, and it is not part of God's eternal plan, according to the bible. It is something that mankind does because this is a fallen world, and simply because people want to do it, despite the numerous negative consequences, both on an individual and global scale.

People like to say "Well this happened because the Chinese eat weird things and they have filthy conditions in their markets." But the truth that no one wants to talk about is that even here in the Western world, the conditions are horrible in the animal industries, filthy and disgusting, and many of the animals are sick. That is why the animals are given antibiotics, but the problem is that antibiotic resistance occurs, so sometimes infections become untreatable, and then people eat those sick animals. I know that people don't want to believe that, but keep in mind that animals are literally standing in their own feces, some have open wounds, prolapses, some have abscesses filled with pus, I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. As a vegan and a Christian I absolutely believe that God wants us to give nonhuman animals a rest. I think we're getting very near that time of "rest", but that's a different topic.

Again, all that is assuming that the official reason is actually true. As I'm sure people realize, there are different theories about how it originated, including some very controversial theories.
I agree that ALL sentient animals should be treated with respect.

how many sentient animals do you know.......personally?

:cuckoo:
 
There are many verses like that as it's important. One, I like is:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30
Yes.

The verse I was thinking of is from Hosea 14:3.... Take with you words and return to the Lord...
 
Now regarding 'divine', here I think our definitions are totally split.
There's a term in Hebrew, not sure it translates - "Kedushah", and English is not my mother tongue, but if I still try to work with 'divine', if understand it as You do, then:
I'd say everything is essentially divine in creation by virtue of its Source,
but Kadosh is limited to bare minimal, yet it's not the mere fact of being confined to the minimal that makes it Kadosh, rather Who sets aside that minimal for Himself to be Kadosh.
Makes sense?
When it says that the ground around the burning bush was 'Holy', what Hebrew word is that?

I think when Genesis chapter 1 says that God looked on his Creation and saw it was 'good', that is the same sense in which I think the Universe is 'divine'; it is pure, and from the Creator though not of His essence; i.e. not eternal or infinite, etc.
 

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