Is it God or Nature?

james bond

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Do you know what that is from?
It's nature and I experienced it when I was a kid in elementary school and became a scout. Are you referring to Psalm 19:1? When and where did you develop your love of nature?
No. Romans 1:20.

Not until I was much older.
I use biblia.com.

"God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For kthe wrath of God lis revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,7 in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they obecame futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 pClaiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and qexchanged the glory of rthe immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

 

rylah

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Now regarding 'divine', here I think our definitions are totally split.
There's a term in Hebrew, not sure it translates - "Kedushah", and English is not my mother tongue, but if I still try to work with 'divine', if understand it as You do, then:
I'd say everything is essentially divine in creation by virtue of its Source,
but Kadosh is limited to bare minimal, yet it's not the mere fact of being confined to the minimal that makes it Kadosh, rather Who sets aside that minimal for Himself to be Kadosh.
Makes sense?
When it says that the ground around the burning bush was 'Holy', what Hebrew word is that?

I think when Genesis chapter 1 says that God looked on his Creation and saw it was 'good', that is the same sense in which I think the Universe is 'divine'; it is pure, and from the Creator though not of His essence; i.e. not eternal or infinite, etc.
The land around the burning bush was Kodesh.
From what I remember Rabbi Sherki explain, there's no comparable term in other languages.
Or otherwise the meaning of Kedushah as it is in Hebrew, is not found in other cultures.

Morfix translates 'divine' into Hebrew as - G-dly, Heavenly, supreme- exalted.
English is not my native language, so I'm not sure how precise this is.
 

Hollie

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The premise was that based on the atheist belief, that the world is billions and billions of years old and that there was this big bang that brought things into existence from nothing....How lucky we are as humans to be existing, when a giant meteor or sun can just smash us to bits at any time.
Don't you think what the atheist belief says is contradictory? If a giant meteor or sun can just smash us to bits at any time, then how could Earth have existed for billions of years? It doesn't pass my common sense test of rock cracking, crumbling, and turning to dust with age. This includes fossils. The weathering, chemical processes, and mechanical processes would turn Earth to dust if it wasn't hit by a space rock. What about us observing whole galaxies, suns, planets, moons, and such whizzing away from us or colliding with another large mass and being destroyed?
There is no Atheist belief. Atheism is a conclusion. There is no Atheist belief that the planet is billions of years old. That’s just a fact. There is no Atheist asserted philosophy. Rather, all of Atheism tends to be a critique of theist assertions. Even the Big Bang doesn't address god issues. Maybe multiple gods are behind the Big Bang, who knows, but there’s no rational reason to accept your gods, or anyone else’s gods as the reason for existence. Magic and supernaturalism answer nothing. Atheism is really a philosophical rejection of the assertions of theism as undemonstrated and fallacious, nothing more.

Did you realize that your comment addressing the earth colliding with objects in space (it happens every day, BTW), thoroughly dismantles the silly “fine tuning”, argument?
 

MarcATL

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There is no Atheist belief. Atheism is a conclusion. There is no Atheist belief that the planet is billions of years old. That’s just a fact. There is no Atheist asserted philosophy. Rather, all of Atheism tends to be a critique of theist assertions. Even the Big Bang doesn't address god issues. Maybe multiple gods are behind the Big Bang, who knows, but there’s no rational reason to accept your gods, or anyone else’s gods as the reason for existence. Magic and supernaturalism answer nothing. Atheism is really a philosophical rejection of the assertions of theism as undemonstrated and fallacious, nothing more.

Did you realize that your comment addressing the earth colliding with objects in space (it happens every day, BTW), thoroughly dismantles the silly “fine tuning”, argument?
I'd like to see a fuller response to this:
 

james bond

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The material world.
I guess I wouldn't get God just looking at the material world which is what I think you mean. Too much conflict. The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me. It shows design behind the intelligence. The other main thing is how everything in interconnected. Now, this would include the material world as you put it and while it's more difficult to see and find, it is evidence for God. I can see how you discovered it as an adult.
 

BreezeWood

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The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me.
that would be true as the basis for any religion ... what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
 

james bond

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The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me.
that would be true as the basis for any religion ... what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
This is as a child I realized there was a God. As an adult, I learned about the beauty and complexity behind it.

Now you state "that would be true as the basis for any religion," but atheism thinks it happened by chance. That's totally ridiculous.
 

BreezeWood

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The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me.
that would be true as the basis for any religion ... what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
This is as a child I realized there was a God. As an adult, I learned about the beauty and complexity behind it.

Now you state "that would be true as the basis for any religion," but atheism thinks it happened by chance. That's totally ridiculous.
Now you state "that would be true as the basis for any religion," but atheism thinks it happened by chance. That's totally ridiculous.
bond, you keep speaking for other people in a derogatory manner ... but do agree it was not by chance and am not sure an atheist does not believe in the metaphysical in a generic mode if nothing else -

- what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
you always complain people do not answer your questions ... it's not the Almighty many do not believe in, it is your 4th century book that is not what is seen when they are in yosemite ... far from it.
 

Blues Man

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Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
If god was going to concoct a flu bug I think he'd make it with a much higer fatality coefficient than this corona bug
 

Hollie

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The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me.
that would be true as the basis for any religion ... what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
This is as a child I realized there was a God. As an adult, I learned about the beauty and complexity behind it.

Now you state "that would be true as the basis for any religion," but atheism thinks it happened by chance. That's totally ridiculous.
“Atheism thinks it happened by chance”?

I wasn’t aware atheism thought that. Maybe it’s a good idea not to speak on behalf of atheism from the position of religious extremism.
 

Hollie

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The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me.
that would be true as the basis for any religion ... what in that view leads you to believe you are dependent on a messiah to save your spirit and not your own determination for the future.
This is as a child I realized there was a God. As an adult, I learned about the beauty and complexity behind it.

Now you state "that would be true as the basis for any religion," but atheism thinks it happened by chance. That's totally ridiculous.
Let’s be honest. You “realized” a specific set of gods because of the happenstance of geographic place of birth and parentage.

A child whose parents are Buddhists will “realize” a very different god due to, wait for it, happenstance of geographic place of birth and parentage. A child whose parents are Hindu.... you get the drill, right?

Something suggests to me that your not growing up where Jihad is the happenstance of geographic place of birth and parentage makes people a little bit safer.
 

james bond

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am not sure an atheist does not believe in the metaphysical in a generic mode if nothing else -
:auiqs.jpg:. What part of of design and intelligence behind it do you not get? ding needs to teach you what an atheist is :whip:.
 

sakinago

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Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Why is it the biggest critics of the idea of god, have the most simplistic thinking when it comes to the concept of god? If god exists, then he created nature. Covid comes forth from nature, so the answer to the first question would be you could argue both.

But humans have a hand in the creation and severity of the covid outbreak. Epidemiologists have been screaming bloody murder about the wet markets in China for decades. China has done nothing about them. We have known for a long time now, how viruses can jump from animals to humans. We know having thousands of different species of unvaccinated wild animals in cages in close proximity to millions of humans who live, cook, and eat in unsanitary conditions is a recipe for disaster. This is why we have the FDA. China would rather not raise the cost of living and risk the health of their people, as well as the entire globe, just so they can continue to pay their population pennies.

Now the west has known that a disaster like this could happen. They didn’t quarantine when they should’ve, because idiots were equating quarantines with racism. They also didn’t prepare in the good times, because we let our leaders, and ourselves, become short sighted in those good times. It’s a common theme in the Bible as well as many ancient idea, to make sure you got your shit together because the bad times will come.
 

ding

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The material world.
I guess I wouldn't get God just looking at the material world which is what I think you mean. Too much conflict. The beauty and complexity of nature found in places like Yosemite convinced me. It shows design behind the intelligence. The other main thing is how everything in interconnected. Now, this would include the material world as you put it and while it's more difficult to see and find, it is evidence for God. I can see how you discovered it as an adult.
God uses conflict to bring about good.

When you asked me the question what is nature I had no idea you meant what is it about nature that makes me believe in God.

After studying the creation of space and time, the evolution of space and time, the physical laws of nature, the biological laws of nature and the moral laws of nature, and the interconnectedness and beauty of nature, I don’t see how anyone can conclude that there isn’t intelligence behind the material world and a purpose for the material world.
 

Newtonian

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Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Good question. IF the official reason for how these viruses start is true, then yes, I would say that this is a consequence of mankind going against God's perfect will. In other words, reaping what we sow. Eating animals was not part of God's original design, and it is not part of God's eternal plan, according to the bible. It is something that mankind does because this is a fallen world, and simply because people want to do it, despite the numerous negative consequences, both on an individual and global scale.

People like to say "Well this happened because the Chinese eat weird things and they have filthy conditions in their markets." But the truth that no one wants to talk about is that even here in the Western world, the conditions are horrible in the animal industries, filthy and disgusting, and many of the animals are sick. That is why the animals are given antibiotics, but the problem is that antibiotic resistance occurs, so sometimes infections become untreatable, and then people eat those sick animals. I know that people don't want to believe that, but keep in mind that animals are literally standing in their own feces, some have open wounds, prolapses, some have abscesses filled with pus, I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. As a vegan and a Christian I absolutely believe that God wants us to give nonhuman animals a rest. I think we're getting very near that time of "rest", but that's a different topic.

Again, all that is assuming that the official reason is actually true. As I'm sure people realize, there are different theories about how it originated, including some very controversial theories.
Another theory is that Corona came from bats!


"Zoologists and disease experts have told CNN that changes to human behavior -- the destruction of natural habitats, coupled with the huge number of fast-moving people now on Earth -- has enabled diseases that were once locked away in nature to cross into people fast....

But viruses that are extremely similar to the one that causes Covid-19 have been seen in Chinese horseshoe bats. That has led to urgent questions as to how the disease moved from bat communities -- often untouched by humans -- to spread across Earth. The answers suggest the need for a complete rethink of how we treat the planet."

See the article for more.

God is not causing this pandemic - bats might have - ultimately humans are the cause.

Soon God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth - Revelation 11:18.
 

Hollie

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Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Good question. IF the official reason for how these viruses start is true, then yes, I would say that this is a consequence of mankind going against God's perfect will. In other words, reaping what we sow. Eating animals was not part of God's original design, and it is not part of God's eternal plan, according to the bible. It is something that mankind does because this is a fallen world, and simply because people want to do it, despite the numerous negative consequences, both on an individual and global scale.

People like to say "Well this happened because the Chinese eat weird things and they have filthy conditions in their markets." But the truth that no one wants to talk about is that even here in the Western world, the conditions are horrible in the animal industries, filthy and disgusting, and many of the animals are sick. That is why the animals are given antibiotics, but the problem is that antibiotic resistance occurs, so sometimes infections become untreatable, and then people eat those sick animals. I know that people don't want to believe that, but keep in mind that animals are literally standing in their own feces, some have open wounds, prolapses, some have abscesses filled with pus, I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. As a vegan and a Christian I absolutely believe that God wants us to give nonhuman animals a rest. I think we're getting very near that time of "rest", but that's a different topic.

Again, all that is assuming that the official reason is actually true. As I'm sure people realize, there are different theories about how it originated, including some very controversial theories.
Another theory is that Corona came from bats!


"Zoologists and disease experts have told CNN that changes to human behavior -- the destruction of natural habitats, coupled with the huge number of fast-moving people now on Earth -- has enabled diseases that were once locked away in nature to cross into people fast....

But viruses that are extremely similar to the one that causes Covid-19 have been seen in Chinese horseshoe bats. That has led to urgent questions as to how the disease moved from bat communities -- often untouched by humans -- to spread across Earth. The answers suggest the need for a complete rethink of how we treat the planet."

See the article for more.

God is not causing this pandemic - bats might have - ultimately humans are the cause.

Soon God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth - Revelation 11:18.
The gods disagree.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:16-17
 

ding

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Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?
Good question. IF the official reason for how these viruses start is true, then yes, I would say that this is a consequence of mankind going against God's perfect will. In other words, reaping what we sow. Eating animals was not part of God's original design, and it is not part of God's eternal plan, according to the bible. It is something that mankind does because this is a fallen world, and simply because people want to do it, despite the numerous negative consequences, both on an individual and global scale.

People like to say "Well this happened because the Chinese eat weird things and they have filthy conditions in their markets." But the truth that no one wants to talk about is that even here in the Western world, the conditions are horrible in the animal industries, filthy and disgusting, and many of the animals are sick. That is why the animals are given antibiotics, but the problem is that antibiotic resistance occurs, so sometimes infections become untreatable, and then people eat those sick animals. I know that people don't want to believe that, but keep in mind that animals are literally standing in their own feces, some have open wounds, prolapses, some have abscesses filled with pus, I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. As a vegan and a Christian I absolutely believe that God wants us to give nonhuman animals a rest. I think we're getting very near that time of "rest", but that's a different topic.

Again, all that is assuming that the official reason is actually true. As I'm sure people realize, there are different theories about how it originated, including some very controversial theories.
Another theory is that Corona came from bats!


"Zoologists and disease experts have told CNN that changes to human behavior -- the destruction of natural habitats, coupled with the huge number of fast-moving people now on Earth -- has enabled diseases that were once locked away in nature to cross into people fast....

But viruses that are extremely similar to the one that causes Covid-19 have been seen in Chinese horseshoe bats. That has led to urgent questions as to how the disease moved from bat communities -- often untouched by humans -- to spread across Earth. The answers suggest the need for a complete rethink of how we treat the planet."

See the article for more.

God is not causing this pandemic - bats might have - ultimately humans are the cause.

Soon God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth - Revelation 11:18.
The gods disagree.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:16-17
And everything works for good. Even this virus.
 

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