Is it God or Nature?

[ding]

The reason religion survives is that it’s a cultural relic

Absolutely. That's why you don't see Hindus converting to what ding would call the "correct" religion spontaneously by the millions. Because it is the religion their culture assimilated them into.

When did I use the phrase correct religion?

And why do you keep confusing religion with God?

Are your beliefs that insecure that you can't get that right?

 

[Hollie]

Darwin was a biologist and agnostic. His natural selection focused on adaptation in the animal’s ecosystem, leading to survival, propagation, and speciation, ie evolution.
Religion is a CULTURAL belief system, and POLITICS (power) is associated with it.

Religion survives as a political tool; it does NOT demonstrate truth.
Just look at lying Trump as an example. He uses religion to gather votes and propagate his political power.
.

SFW???!!!???!!! Darwin didn't really get natural selection right. It was creation scientist Alfred Russel Wallace who got it right. Durwood Darwin was wrong with most of his thesis. Much of what Dawin accomplished was to explain evolution and then he supported the racist and genocidal policies against blacks with his brand of evolution. It led to racial social Darwinism. It even led to the slaugher of Jews by the Nazis. I hate Darwin. He showed his racism in The Descent of Man. He is is screaming in Hades 24/7 right now and he belongs in the lowest level of hell. Maybe his followers will end up close to it.

Actually, the Darwinian principle of natural selection is exactly right. There’s no reason to accept your claim that Wallace was a “creation scientist” when that term is meaningless.

Your stereotypical claim about social Darwinism and racism is nonsense right out of the religious extremist handbook.

CA002.1: Social Darwinism.

Claim CA002.1:
Darwinism leads to social Darwinism, the policy that the weak should be allowed to fail and die.Source:
Morris, Henry M. 1985. Scientific Creationism. Green Forest, AR: Master Books, p. 179.
Response:

1. This is an example of the naturalistic fallacy -- the argument that how things are implies how they ought to be. But "is" does not imply "ought." Evolution only tells how things are; it does not say how they should be.
   
   
2. The source of social Darwinism was not Darwin but Herbert Spencer and the tradition of Protestant nonconformism going back to Hobbes via Malthus. Spencer's ideas of evolution were Lamarckian. The only real connection between Darwinism and social Darwinism is the name.
   
   
3. Diverse political and religious ideas draw upon evolutionary biology, including ideas advocating greater cooperation.
   
   
4. Evolutionary theory shows us that the long-term survival of a species is strongly linked with its genetic variability. All Social Darwinist programs advocate minimizing genetic variability, thus reducing chances of long-term survival in the event of environmental change. An understanding of evolution should then rebuke any attempt at social Darwinism if the long-term survival of humanity is treated as a goal.
   
   
5. Eugenics and social Darwinian accounts are more often tied to the rise of the science of genetics than to evolutionary theory.

 

[ding]

Evolution only tells how things are; it does not say how they should be.

Which is how we know that religion offers functional advantages over atheism.

 

[BreezeWood]

Evolution only tells how things are; it does not say how they should be.

Which is how we know that religion offers functional advantages over atheism.

Which is how we know that religion offers functional advantages over atheism.

.
there is no difference between deism and atheism for your comment as for the desert religions your comment is patently false their books are littered with forgeries and fallacies and further mitigated by the refusal to correct their errors that appeal to the worldview of those that wrote them. bond, newtonian et al. and self serving outliers, people like bing.

 

[ding]

Evolution only tells how things are; it does not say how they should be.

Which is how we know that religion offers functional advantages over atheism.

Which is how we know that religion offers functional advantages over atheism.

.
there is no difference between deism and atheism for your comment as for the desert religions your comment is patently false their books are littered with forgeries and fallacies and further mitigated by the refusal to correct their errors that appeal to the worldview of those that wrote them. bond, newtonian et al. and self serving outliers, people like bing.

There's a mighty big difference between deism and atheism, Karl. It's called God.

Too bad you don't believe in Him.

Western Civilization says otherwise, Karl.

 

[ViewFromAbove]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

But you are wrong. For any given thing there will be a final state of fact. When discovered it is realized that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words truth is eternal and unchanging. Which are the exact attributes that the solution to the first cause conundrum must possess.

Final state of fact or objective truth is reality. Ergo God is reality. Ergo God is existence.

Your reality is in your mind, which is not objective unless many many other people perceive the same. Ergo your perception of God is your reality, existing in your mind that pretends it know something beyond the natural world (supernatural imagination).

 

[ViewFromAbove]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

To each their own mind is moral relativism and it is effectively the original sin.

What I find most interesting about our little exchange here is that you have absolutely no basis for any of your beliefs. Whereas I have gone into great detail explaining the logic behind my beliefs.

So really, which one of us is clinging to their belief without any rational basis for that belief. Because from my perspective you just accused me of what you are doing.

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

 

[ding]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

But you are wrong. For any given thing there will be a final state of fact. When discovered it is realized that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words truth is eternal and unchanging. Which are the exact attributes that the solution to the first cause conundrum must possess.

Final state of fact or objective truth is reality. Ergo God is reality. Ergo God is existence.

Your reality is in your mind, which is not objective unless many many other people perceive the same. Ergo your perception of God is your reality, existing in your mind that pretends it know something beyond the natural world (supernatural imagination).

No. That's perception of truth or subjective truth. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth.

 

[ding]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

To each their own mind is moral relativism and it is effectively the original sin.

What I find most interesting about our little exchange here is that you have absolutely no basis for any of your beliefs. Whereas I have gone into great detail explaining the logic behind my beliefs.

So really, which one of us is clinging to their belief without any rational basis for that belief. Because from my perspective you just accused me of what you are doing.

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

Let's test that. What do you believe I believe original sin is?

You see, your error is in thinking you know what I know original sin to be.

 

[ding]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

To each their own mind is moral relativism and it is effectively the original sin.

What I find most interesting about our little exchange here is that you have absolutely no basis for any of your beliefs. Whereas I have gone into great detail explaining the logic behind my beliefs.

So really, which one of us is clinging to their belief without any rational basis for that belief. Because from my perspective you just accused me of what you are doing.

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

Science is the study of nature to discover the order within nature so as to be able to make predictions of nature.

 

[ViewFromAbove]

As expected, some "see" the Covid-19 pandemic as a product of NATURE, and some believe GOD is "testing" us.
I wonder if the 300,000 people who died (or dying) appreciate(d) such testing, instead of the antibody tests that scientists are providing.

I am in the agnostic/science Nature camp, while the poster Ding is in the supernatural God camp, which may not reflect the Bible. For example, Ding may have a non-Christian view of God (like Breezewood), although Ding believes God is separate from Nature and refers to "original sin".
The common understanding of Original Sin is: a Christian belief in a state of sin in which humanity has existed since the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Wikipedia).
* I have no such belief or any other supernatural explanation.

Ding and I agree that: Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. However, scientific methods practice research without bias to provide objective evidence, while religious faith ASSUMES what is written in ancient books is true, and Abrahamic believers prefer their outcome to be in heaven.

To each their own non-political interpretation of why this Covid-19 pandemic occured, but I prefer to focus on solutions within the church of scientific practice.

 

[james bond]

Actually, the Darwinian principle of natural selection is exactly right. There’s no reason to accept your claim that Wallace was a “creation scientist” when that term is meaningless.

Your stereotypical claim about social Darwinism and racism is nonsense right out of the religious extremist handbook.

No. Darwin was wrong with practically all of his theories. Since you're just learning this now, you have been wrong most of your adult life.

 

[james bond]

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

Sure, it's substantiated because you don't believe in God's word. You are with sin and will be substantiated after you die. It has to do with Satan more than God. All I can say is you will reap what you sow and that is to be without God after you die. Thus, you will get Satan. I certainly don't think he's a pushover and will give you a break.

You don't even believe in real science, but believe in Satan's science of evolution. Thus, you say, "We can observe nature & learn about its patterns." But I say it's what Satan does.

 

[BreezeWood]

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

Sure, it's substantiated because you don't believe in God's word. You are with sin and will be substantiated after you die. It has to do with Satan more than God. All I can say is you will reap what you sow and that is to be without God after you die. Thus, you will get Satan. I certainly don't think he's a pushover and will give you a break.

You don't even believe in real science, but believe in Satan's science of evolution. Thus, you say, "We can observe nature & learn about its patterns." But I say it's what Satan does.

But I say it's what Satan does.

.
satan's path led them to their death - a path yet available for the choosing.

the religion of antiquity abandoned by the desert religions and yourself is the only means for admission to the Everlasting once embarked from the enlightenment sought in the very beginning.

 

[ding]

As expected, some "see" the Covid-19 pandemic as a product of NATURE, and some believe GOD is "testing" us.
I wonder if the 300,000 people who died (or dying) appreciate(d) such testing, instead of the antibody tests that scientists are providing.

I am in the agnostic/science Nature camp, while the poster Ding is in the supernatural God camp, which may not reflect the Bible. For example, Ding may have a non-Christian view of God (like Breezewood), although Ding believes God is separate from Nature and refers to "original sin".
The common understanding of Original Sin is: a Christian belief in a state of sin in which humanity has existed since the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Wikipedia).
* I have no such belief or any other supernatural explanation.

Ding and I agree that: Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. However, scientific methods practice research without bias to provide objective evidence, while religious faith ASSUMES what is written in ancient books is true, and Abrahamic believers prefer their outcome to be in heaven.

To each their own non-political interpretation of why this Covid-19 pandemic occured, but I prefer to focus on solutions within the church of scientific practice.

I'm Catholic through and through. Original sin is not that man disobeyed God. Original sin is that man fails to take accountability when he does.

As to your assumption on faith, that's wrong too. Faith is having complete trust in something or someone. We are never to put complete trust is something or someone without good reason.

As for what is written in ancient books, I doubt you read those books for wisdom. I suspect you read them to confirm your bias.

As for science, I've been a practicing engineer for almost 36 years. I have forgotten more science than you ever knew. It is my understanding of science that led me to believe in God. Only then was I able to understand the wisdom in the Bible. I honestly believe you have no chance at that.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well, interestingly enough in Revelation, it says that the first of the 4 Horsemen to be released is Pestilence, and I would say that COVID 19 is covering that one nicely.

The next one to be released is Famine, and if you look at the impact that COVID 19 is having on the food chain, you can see that it looks like it's not far behind.

Then, War is let out, and nations will start fighting each other, even worse than what is happening now.

And then, finally..................Death.

Hey guys, I told you a long time ago that when people like Admiral Rockwell Tory and California Girl started to agree with me, that the Apocalypse wasn't far off.

 

[Newtonian]

It is a fact that the universe is an intelligence creating machine. It is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You were doing okay with your science and politics for a bit, but then the above and then you end up losing your audience. The universe is an intelligence creating machine?

You get the same type of effect with me when you bring in the Bible. I would think you meant that complex life forms from a bacteria cell or single cell. That's what Darwin was able to explain as ToE. I assume you meant God created the single cell and then it becomes a complex one. It's almost like you're saying God is the universe seeing this is under R&E. Instead, why don't you post it under S&T and leave God out? Then I would treat it more seriously and not you trying to change God of the Bible.

Cool story, bro. I meant exactly what I have written. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Beings that know and create were predestined by God to exist before space and time began according to the laws of nature which were created by God who willed space and time into existence. We aren’t here by accident. We are literally the pinnacle of creation and the purpose for creation. Everything about creation glorifies God. God shares in our experiences.

I agree that religion is separate from one's belief in a God. Religions are cultural relics reflecting authoritarian leaders influencing their uneducated followers.

You seem somewhat educated, but lacking thoroughness in your logic.
Of course, our intelligence was created (by an evolutionary process, or DNA?) after individual cognitive development.
To say we "were predestined by God to exist before space and time" is not only presumptious, but lacks logical consistency. If your concept of God is separate from nature and it's laws, and "supernatural", how do you know ANYTHING specific about God's intentions?
Blind faith?

Actually it is entirely logical that intelligence begets intelligence. So rather than being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world such that everything is mind stuff such that beings that know and create eventually arose.

Again, VERY presumptuous. Where does the "intelligence begets intelligence" process begin? Simply "poof" because YOU understand the supernatural?

With the source or matrix. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has always existed and will always exist. In other words, eternal. For something to be eternal it must be unchanging. Therefore, it must be beyond energy and matter because energy and matter are not eternal because energy and matter are not unchanging.

In fact the only thing I can think of that fits this definition is truth. Truth is eternal. Truth is unchanging. And what is truth if it is not mind stuff?

There is no logic to your claim about "eternal", or your "truth" is illogical.
Seems to me you created a supernatural world where your "truth" feels comfortable to you. To each their own mind!

To each their own mind is moral relativism and it is effectively the original sin.

What I find most interesting about our little exchange here is that you have absolutely no basis for any of your beliefs. Whereas I have gone into great detail explaining the logic behind my beliefs.

So really, which one of us is clinging to their belief without any rational basis for that belief. Because from my perspective you just accused me of what you are doing.

I'm not the one with unsubstantiated beliefs, such as "original sin".
We can observe nature & learn about its patterns. It's what science does.

Science is the study of nature to discover the order within nature so as to be able to make predictions of nature.

It is much more than that!

Romans 1:20
For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made,+ even his eternal power+ and Godship,+ so that they are inexcusable.+

Applying this verse involves all branches of scientific study - the study of "the things made." For example, God's power is revealed by the law of conservation of matter and energy and calculating the amount of energy involved with the origin of our universe using the formula: E=Mc^2 {Energy = Mass x the speed of light squared].

I would assume that the amount of Energy Jehovah (Divine Name - definition "He causes to be") put into the universe is only a portion of God's power.

See Isaiah 40:22,26 - the latter verse uses Hebrew singular koach for God's power, and Hebrew plural ohnim for multiple forms of God's dynamic energy - v.26 links this to the existence of stars and v.22 refers to God causing the expansion of the universe which we now know from science is precisely fine tuned to allow for the existence of stars.

The elements that make up life would not exist if it was not for stars - otherwise only Hydrogen and Lithium would exist in our universe (Note: specifically: supernovae).