Holocaust History

[Briss]

I know nothing about the issue and you just want to play gotcha with the issue.

Sorry, but you wanted a debate. Now you have one.

Do you agree with the testimonies of Hoss and surviving Sonderkommandos which state that humans entered gas chambers immediately after a mass-gassing, disentangled bodies, clipped hair and pulled teeth, and then cleaned up the chamber ****-and-span--and all bare-handed--despite what is known about the properties of cyanide and its effect on living, breathing humans are based in reality?

Are you familiar with the properties of cyanide as it pertains to toxicity?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Sorry, but you wanted a debate. Now you have one.

Do you agree with the testimonies of Hoss and surviving Sonderkommandos which state that humans entered gas chambers immediately after a mass-gassing, disentangled bodies, clipped hair and pulled teeth, and then cleaned up the chamber ****-and-span--and all bare-handed--despite what is known about the properties of cyanide and its effect on living, breathing humans are based in reality?

Are you familiar with the properties of cyanide as it pertains to toxicity?

Master Holocaust Denier. You asked something, I found you the answer. You do not like it. You are now tap dancing, and whatever else one can call this last post.

Are you capable of telling the truth?

 

[Briss]

Master Holocaust Denier.

What happened here is that you were asked whether or not you agree that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies without suffering the ill effects associated with doing so. And that's why you're dancing right now. You understand what your honest answer would mean to your beliefs.

Just answer the question of whether or not you believe that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies and then cleaned up the gas chamber, and all barehanded.

Do you believe that?

Don't dance.

 

[Sixties Fan]

What happened here is that you were asked whether or not you agree that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies without suffering the ill effects associated with doing so. And that's why you're dancing right now. You understand what your honest answer would mean to your beliefs.

Just answer the question of whether or not you believe that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies and then cleaned up the gas chamber, and all barehanded.

Do you believe that?

Don't dance.

This was the topic on post 199 from you:

"You must believe that the warden of the Missouri State Penitentiary, Bill Armontrout, who was an expert witness at the second Ernst Zundel trial in Toronto, is full of shyt. Obviously, you take issue with what he said about the reality of the dangers of handling a gassed body. Why don't you fill us all in on how he had it all wrong?"

----------
I answered it.
You did not like my research so you changed the subject to :

"What happened here is that you were asked whether or not you agree that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies without suffering the ill effects associated with doing so. And that's why you're dancing right now. You understand what your honest answer would mean to your beliefs."

---------------------
What did you not like about my research? The fact that the expert witnesses were caught lying?


Shall I bother with any more research about the Sonderkommandos only to find out that the result is more lies?


Show links to your sources.
What? No sources? No evidence?

What discussion can be had with your lies?

 

[Briss]

This was the topic on post 199 from you:

"You must believe that the warden of the Missouri State Penitentiary, Bill Armontrout, who was an expert witness at the second Ernst Zundel trial in Toronto, is full of shyt. Obviously, you take issue with what he said about the reality of the dangers of handling a gassed body. Why don't you fill us all in on how he had it all wrong?"

----------
I answered it.
You did not like my research so you changed the subject to :

"What happened here is that you were asked whether or not you agree that the Sonderkommandos handled freshly gassed bodies without suffering the ill effects associated with doing so. And that's why you're dancing right now. You understand what your honest answer would mean to your beliefs."

---------------------
What did you not like about my research? The fact that the expert witnesses were caught lying?


Shall I bother with any more research about the Sonderkommandos only to find out that the result is more lies?


Show links to your sources.
What? No sources? No evidence?

What discussion can be had with your lies?

Dude! The testimony from Sonderkommandos defies science.

Avoid skin contact with cyanide-contaminated patients or with
stomach contents (vomitus) of patients who may have ingested
cyanide-containing materials or inhaled hydrogen cyanide gas.

Web Page Under Construction

According to Pressac, "it would have been necessary for the extermination rooms to have been emptied of corpses and refilled with new victims every half hour or so, as would have been necessary for such a large number of victims" So, do you believe that the Sonderkommandos disentangled hundreds and hundreds of corpses, dragged them all out of the chamber, pulled their teeth and clipped their hair, and then cleaned up all the vomit and other stuff so thoroughly that the chamber looked unused to the next batch of victims--and all barehanded--within a half an hour? Did they really do that every half hour? And if the number of gassing victims was 2,000,000, then they must have done it all within fifteen minutes.

You're not even aware of what the Sonderkommandos have said are you?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Dude! The testimony from Sonderkommandos defies science.

Avoid skin contact with cyanide-contaminated patients or with
stomach contents (vomitus) of patients who may have ingested
cyanide-containing materials or inhaled hydrogen cyanide gas.

Web Page Under Construction

According to Pressac, "it would have been necessary for the extermination rooms to have been emptied of corpses and refilled with new victims every half hour or so, as would have been necessary for such a large number of victims" So, do you believe that the Sonderkommandos disentangled hundreds and hundreds of corpses, dragged them all out of the chamber, pulled their teeth and clipped their hair, and then cleaned up all the vomit and other stuff so thoroughly that the chamber looked unused to the next batch of victims--and all barehanded--within a half an hour? Did they really do that every half hour? And if the number of gassing victims was 2,000,000, then they must have done it all within fifteen minutes.

You're not even aware of what the Sonderkommandos have said are you?

Go to the Nazi archives and find me the evidence from the nazi records.

Your link does not exist.

 

[Briss]

Go to the Nazi archives and find me the evidence from the nazi records.

Your link does not exist.

Here's some information concerning the dangers of handling victims of cyanide poisoning without proper protection:

Avoid touching a person whose skin has been exposed to cyanide; only emergency personnel with special protective clothing should have direct contact with the victim, as secondary contamination is possible.
Cyanide Poisoning Treatment: First Aid Information for Cyanide Poisoning

Persons whose clothing or skin is contaminated with cyanide-containing solutions can secondarily contaminate response personnel by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.
Hydrogen Cyanide Hospital Management

Persons whose clothing or skin is contaminated with cyanide-containing solutions can secondarily contaminate response personnel by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.
ATSDR - Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs): Cyanide

Hospital staff working in an enclosed area can be secondarily contaminated by cyanide vapor off-gassing from heavily soaked clothing or skin, or from toxic vomit. Avoid dermal contact with cyanide-contaminated victims or with gastric contents of persons who may have ingested cyanide-containing materials (patients usually don't pose secondary contamination risks after contaminated clothing is removed and the skin is washed.
Emergency Response Handbook for Chemical and Biological Agents and Weapons ... - John R. Cashman - Google Books
______________________________

If cyanide gas/dust is suspected;

Do not enter the area

Contact Emergency services on (0) 000 from a Monash phone or 112 from a mobile

Call security on 333

Double glove to avoid contamination from patient’s skin/clothes

If patient is conscious;

Administer medical oxygen at maximum rate

Remove contaminated clothing and place in biohazard bag labeled "Contaminated with Cyanide" until it can be decontaminated

Wash all contaminated skin with copious amounts of water for at least 20 minutes Continue treatment until medical assistance arrives

First aid for cyanide poisoning - OHS information sheet - Monash University

I hope this helps you to understand why there is a problem with the eyewitness accounts of Hoss and the testimonies of members of the Sonderkommando units who speak of going into the gas chamber bare-handed and handling so many freshly gassed bodies for eight months without falling ill.

Ever hear of a book called "Inside the Gas Chamber: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz"? It was written by a man named Venezia in collaboration with Béatrice Prasquier.

In the book he says:

". . . their job was to work barehanded and separate intertwined bodies, some of whom may have been relatives or spouses.”

"In general, the men who filled out the ranks of the Sonderkommando led short lives. The Germans, not wanting their genocidal activities to become common knowledge, routinely murdered entire Sonderkommando units and refilled them with new prisoners. Venezia survived only due to the chaotic evacuation of Auschwitz in January 1945. He recalled that during the forced evacuation to Austria, SS troopers periodically wandered through the marching prisoners asking whether anyone had worked at Auschwitz in the Sonderkommando. He wisely kept silent, knowing that he would be shot immediately if identified."

H-Net Reviews

Apparently, the biggest concern for members of the Sonderkommano units was the prospect of being shot, since they were somehow magically immune to the effects of Zyklon B even as they entered gas chambers and handled freshly gassed corpses barehanded for eighteen months.

So, why do you believe they were immune to the effects of cyanide?

Rutherford on Venezia, 'Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz' | H-Net

Shlomo Venezia. Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz. In collaboration with Béatrice Prasquier. Cambridge: Polity, 2009. xv + 202 pp. $22.95 (cloth), ISBN 978-0-7456-4383-0. Reviewed by Jeff Rutherford (Department of History, Wheeling Jesuit University)...

networks.h-net.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here's some information concerning the dangers of handling victims of cyanide poisoning without proper protection:

Avoid touching a person whose skin has been exposed to cyanide; only emergency personnel with special protective clothing should have direct contact with the victim, as secondary contamination is possible.
Cyanide Poisoning Treatment: First Aid Information for Cyanide Poisoning

Persons whose clothing or skin is contaminated with cyanide-containing solutions can secondarily contaminate response personnel by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.
Hydrogen Cyanide Hospital Management

Persons whose clothing or skin is contaminated with cyanide-containing solutions can secondarily contaminate response personnel by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.
ATSDR - Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs): Cyanide

Hospital staff working in an enclosed area can be secondarily contaminated by cyanide vapor off-gassing from heavily soaked clothing or skin, or from toxic vomit. Avoid dermal contact with cyanide-contaminated victims or with gastric contents of persons who may have ingested cyanide-containing materials (patients usually don't pose secondary contamination risks after contaminated clothing is removed and the skin is washed.
Emergency Response Handbook for Chemical and Biological Agents and Weapons ... - John R. Cashman - Google Books
______________________________

If cyanide gas/dust is suspected;

Do not enter the area

Contact Emergency services on (0) 000 from a Monash phone or 112 from a mobile

Call security on 333

Double glove to avoid contamination from patient’s skin/clothes

If patient is conscious;

Administer medical oxygen at maximum rate

Remove contaminated clothing and place in biohazard bag labeled "Contaminated with Cyanide" until it can be decontaminated

Wash all contaminated skin with copious amounts of water for at least 20 minutes Continue treatment until medical assistance arrives

First aid for cyanide poisoning - OHS information sheet - Monash University

I hope this helps you to understand why there is a problem with the eyewitness accounts of Hoss and the testimonies of members of the Sonderkommando units who speak of going into the gas chamber bare-handed and handling so many freshly gassed bodies for eight months without falling ill.

Ever hear of a book called "Inside the Gas Chamber: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz"? It was written by a man named Venezia in collaboration with Béatrice Prasquier.

In the book he says:

". . . their job was to work barehanded and separate intertwined bodies, some of whom may have been relatives or spouses.”

"In general, the men who filled out the ranks of the Sonderkommando led short lives. The Germans, not wanting their genocidal activities to become common knowledge, routinely murdered entire Sonderkommando units and refilled them with new prisoners. Venezia survived only due to the chaotic evacuation of Auschwitz in January 1945. He recalled that during the forced evacuation to Austria, SS troopers periodically wandered through the marching prisoners asking whether anyone had worked at Auschwitz in the Sonderkommando. He wisely kept silent, knowing that he would be shot immediately if identified."

H-Net Reviews

Apparently, the biggest concern for members of the Sonderkommano units was the prospect of being shot, since they were somehow magically immune to the effects of Zyklon B even as they entered gas chambers and handled freshly gassed corpses barehanded for eighteen months.

So, why do you believe they were immune to the effects of cyanide?

Rutherford on Venezia, 'Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz' | H-Net

Shlomo Venezia. Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz. In collaboration with Béatrice Prasquier. Cambridge: Polity, 2009. xv + 202 pp. $22.95 (cloth), ISBN 978-0-7456-4383-0. Reviewed by Jeff Rutherford (Department of History, Wheeling Jesuit University)...

networks.h-net.org

In neither link do I find what you are alleging.

From your links:

"The issue of survival also plays a prominent role in the volume. In general, the men who filled out the ranks of the Sonderkommando led short lives. The Germans, not wanting their genocidal activities to become common knowledge, routinely murdered entire Sonderkommando units and refilled them with new prisoners."

--------------

You keep inserting this idea:

"Apparently, the biggest concern for members of the Sonderkommano units was the prospect of being shot, since they were somehow magically immune to the effects of Zyklon B even as they entered gas chambers and handled freshly gassed corpses barehanded for eighteen months. "


Nowhere it says that.

 

[Briss]

In neither link do I find what you are alleging.

From your links:

"The issue of survival also plays a prominent role in the volume. In general, the men who filled out the ranks of the Sonderkommando led short lives. The Germans, not wanting their genocidal activities to become common knowledge, routinely murdered entire Sonderkommando units and refilled them with new prisoners."

--------------

You keep inserting this idea:

"Apparently, the biggest concern for members of the Sonderkommano units was the prospect of being shot, since they were somehow magically immune to the effects of Zyklon B even as they entered gas chambers and handled freshly gassed corpses barehanded for eighteen months. "


Nowhere it says that.

Do you believe that the Sonderkommandos went into the gas chamber and handled freshly gassed people and then cleaned up the chamber enough to make it look as if nothing had occurred? Shlomo Venezia claims to have done just that for eight months.

Your job is to explain how he and others had the superpower to not be affected by cyanide.

How did they do it?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Do you believe that the Sonderkommandos went into the gas chamber and handled freshly gassed people and then cleaned up the chamber enough to make it look as if nothing had occurred? Shlomo Venezia claims to have done just that for eight months.

Your job is to explain how he and others had the superpower to not be affected by cyanide.

How did they do it?

You are clearly mixing two things. On purpose.

What you are trying to prove, with the paragraph I pasted about 18 months, apparently occurred in some prison, somewhere, sometime, and not in the concentration camps during the Holocaust.

Nowhere in the review of the book by Venezia does it mention anything about the 18 months you allege. And you have not read the book, anymore than I have.

Venezia was there. You were not.

I will take his word for it.

 

[Briss]

You are clearly mixing two things. On purpose.

What you are trying to prove, with the paragraph I pasted about 18 months, apparently occurred in some prison, somewhere, sometime, and not in the concentration camps during the Holocaust.

Nowhere in the review of the book by Venezia does it mention anything about the 18 months you allege. And you have not read the book, anymore than I have.

Venezia was there. You were not.

I will take his word for it.

Yes, I did mistakenly write eighteen months when it was eight. But that's neither here nor there. Shlomo Venezia was a Sonderkommando.

From the article:

The ability to transform such individual cruelty into a comprehensive system of brutality marked the Nazi camp system. The Germans came extremely close to perfecting the mass murder of whole groups of people and this attention to detail permeated the entire machinery of destruction. Degradation was purposefully built into the system, a fact that the establishment of Sonderkommando units made particularly clear. The Sonderkommando units were comprised of Jews who cleaned up the gas chambers after a group of prisoners had been murdered. After its personnel dragged the corpses out of the chamber--as Venezia states, this in and of itself was an extremely disturbing process, as it was initially difficult to disentangle the bodies--the room had to be cleaned. All traces of blood and excrement had to be washed away in order to present a clean, sterile, and hence worry-free environment to the next batch of victims. After completing this task, the men of the Sonderkommando then moved through the corpses, clipping hair or pulling out gold teeth before disposing of the bodies in industrial furnaces. The expertise that the Germans acquired in carrying out mass murder was soon passed on to the men manning the Sonderkommando units. In one particularly disturbing passage, Venezia noted that the more experienced men collected the fat from the burned corpses in a basin and then poured it on the flames when they began to wane. The Sonderkommando men also learned that cold water needed to be poured onto the metal stretcher before sliding a corpse into the furnace. Failure to do so resulted in the bodies burning onto the stretcher, and removing leftover pieces of skin and flesh proved quite time consuming. Any delay, of course, was interpreted by the Germans as sabotage, so the men of the Sonderkommando were forced to master their "jobs" in order to survive.

Now, how did they handle freshly gassed bodies and then clean up all traces of what had happened without suffering ill effects form cyanide poisoning? If I were you, I'd try to convince me that Venezia wasn't there? But you can't do that because you've already stated that he did it for eight months. So, how did they do that?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Yes, I did mistakenly write eighteen months when it was eight. But that's neither here nor there. Shlomo Venezia was a Sonderkommando.

From the article:

The ability to transform such individual cruelty into a comprehensive system of brutality marked the Nazi camp system. The Germans came extremely close to perfecting the mass murder of whole groups of people and this attention to detail permeated the entire machinery of destruction. Degradation was purposefully built into the system, a fact that the establishment of Sonderkommando units made particularly clear. The Sonderkommando units were comprised of Jews who cleaned up the gas chambers after a group of prisoners had been murdered. After its personnel dragged the corpses out of the chamber--as Venezia states, this in and of itself was an extremely disturbing process, as it was initially difficult to disentangle the bodies--the room had to be cleaned. All traces of blood and excrement had to be washed away in order to present a clean, sterile, and hence worry-free environment to the next batch of victims. After completing this task, the men of the Sonderkommando then moved through the corpses, clipping hair or pulling out gold teeth before disposing of the bodies in industrial furnaces. The expertise that the Germans acquired in carrying out mass murder was soon passed on to the men manning the Sonderkommando units. In one particularly disturbing passage, Venezia noted that the more experienced men collected the fat from the burned corpses in a basin and then poured it on the flames when they began to wane. The Sonderkommando men also learned that cold water needed to be poured onto the metal stretcher before sliding a corpse into the furnace. Failure to do so resulted in the bodies burning onto the stretcher, and removing leftover pieces of skin and flesh proved quite time consuming. Any delay, of course, was interpreted by the Germans as sabotage, so the men of the Sonderkommando were forced to master their "jobs" in order to survive.

Now, how did they handle freshly gassed bodies and then clean up all traces of what had happened without suffering ill effects form cyanide poisoning? If I were you, I'd try to convince me that Venezia wasn't there? But you can't do that because you've already stated that he did it for eight months. So, how did they do that?

More BS in order to prove what you want readers to believe.

Nowhere in the article, and possibly the book, does it even allege that it would have been dangerous to handle the bodies after they were gassed.


That is your intentional add on in order to make it look like there was a danger which did not exist at the time.

 

[Briss]

More BS in order to prove what you want readers to believe.

Nowhere in the article, and possibly the book, does it even allege that it would have been dangerous to handle the bodies after they were gassed.


That is your intentional add on in order to make it look like there was a danger which did not exist at the time.

We'll take this slow so that you lose any wriggle room.

Do you believe that Venezia was a Sonderkommando for eight months as he has claimed?

I've already posted the dangers of handling a body or clothing contaminated with cyanide. You must have missed it for your own purposes here. But we'll get back to that just as soon as you acknowledge that Venezia handled body after body that had been gassed with cyanide. For eight months. You believe him, right?

 

[Sixties Fan]

We'll take this slow so that you lose any wriggle room.

Do you believe that Venezia was a Sonderkommando for eight months as he has claimed?

I've already posted the dangers of handling a body or clothing contaminated with cyanide. You must have missed it for your own purposes here. But we'll get back to that just as soon as you acknowledge that Venezia handled body after body that had been gassed with cyanide. For eight months. You believe him, right?

You missed all the lack of recorded evidence of anything like that happening on any concentration camp during WWII.

Go find it and come back when you do.

 

[Briss]

You missed all the lack of recorded evidence of anything like that happening on any concentration camp during WWII.

Go find it and come back when you do.

But we have Venezia's account of what happened. He specifically laid out the duties of the Sonderkommandos when it came to how the operation was done. He knows because he was a Sonderkommando. Do you have reason to question his integrity?

What did you think about the precautions that must be taken when handling the body or clothing of someone who has been gassed with cyanide? I did post that for you to see. Did you see it? Did you dismiss it? If so, why?

 

[Sixties Fan]

But we have Venezia's account of what happened. He specifically laid out the duties of the Sonderkommandos when it came to how the operation was done. He knows because he was a Sonderkommando. Do you have reason to question his integrity?

What did you think about the precautions that must be taken when handling the body or clothing of someone who has been gassed with cyanide? I did post that for you to see. Did you see it? Did you dismiss it? If so, why?

You posted about some prison. Not about the concentration camps and no proof that back then that is what happened.

I am not waiting for you to provide evidence that it is what happened during WWII.

 

[DudleySmith]

Sorry, but you wanted a debate. Now you have one.

No, he doesn't; all you got is a load of crap you can't prove yourself, and think if you throw out long enough piles of bullshit we're all going to be impressed n stuff with your neo-nazi rubbish, like a Talmud and Mishnahs for neo-nazis and John Birchers.

 

[Sixties Fan]

According to the museum, the institute’s collection includes some 24,000 objects and more than 111 million pages of archival documentation with 200 million digital images. It also contains more than 114,000 photographs and images; 1,500 hours of historic film footage; and 23,000 oral testimonies.

The Rubenstein National Institute for Holocaust Documentation supports scholarship, exhibitions, publications, films and more.



(full article online)

$15 Million Gift to Help US Holocaust Museum Digitize and Expand Collections

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. Photo: Phil Kalina/Flickr. JNS.org – The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in …

www.algemeiner.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Dutch government began a similar investigation last year, and the present inquiry began after questions surfaced about the painting “Fishing boats off the coast” by Dutch painter Hendrik Willem Mesdag, which has hung in the Dutch parliament for decades.

Speaker of the Dutch House of Representatives Vera Bergkamp said as soon as she discovered concerns that the Nazis may have stolen the painting from a Jewish family during World War II, she had the artwork taken down. “When I read that, I immediately said it should be investigated as soon as possible. It is my moral responsibility to cooperate with this,” Bergkamp told RTL News.

(full article online)

The Netherlands Searches Art Collection for Nazi-Looted Works in Government Buildings, Museums

The Dutch parliament building. Photo: Michiel Jelijs/Flickr. The Netherlands is probing whether there are any Nazi-looted artworks from World War …

www.algemeiner.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

When Nazis of all ranks spoke of a “humane” method of killing other human beings, what exactly did they mean? One outcome of this book is a tentative outline of the key characteristics—a Weberian Ideal-Type—of what the Nazi’s regarded as the most humane method of killing. As Russell argues in this chapter, when Nazis spoke of such matters, what they seemed to desire was a method of killing that rated highly on four main conditions. First, victims should remain totally unaware that they are about to die. Second, perpetrators need not touch, see, or hear their victims as they die. Third, the death blow should avoid leaving any visual indications of harm on the victims’ bodies. And finally, the death blow should be instantaneous.

(full article online)

The Nazi’s Pursuit for a “Humane” Method of Killing

When Nazis of all ranks spoke of a “humane” method of killing other human beings, what exactly did they mean? One outcome of this book is a tentative outline of the key characteristics—a Weberian Ideal-Type—of what the Nazi’s regarded as...

link.springer.com