CDZ Do you agree that, only through government, can people...

[Flash]

To me government is a necessary evil.

It is necessary for a minimal amount of services like defense, courts, police etc.

I don't mind the government doing a literacy education as long as it administrated on a local level in a fiscally responsible manner and focuses on reading, writing and arithmetic.

Most of us would not object to the government building roads providing it is done efficiently and we all share the cost equally.

All government transfer payments are wrong. No welfare, subsidies, grants, bailouts or entitlements.

No foreign aid.

No bloated government agencies that do nothing of real value.

Minimal government regulations.

The government needs to stay out of our lives.

 

[Blues Man]

then it can be argued that US farmers would not be as successful as you say if they did not get subsidies. Even the farmers themselves say they need those subsidies to survive

The only reason they get those subsidies is due to the government overreach that I am arguing against in this thread.

Incidentally, the American farmer was quite successful long before crooked government officials decided to start handing out the people's money.

no they get those subsidies because they have convinced the government that subsidies are needed and have been getting them since the 1930's

 

[K9Buck]

no they get those subsidies because they have convinced the government that subsidies are needed and have been getting them since the 1930's

They get those subsidies because inept or corrupt politicians decided to give them subsidies. If we had a more limited government, they wouldn't get them. I take it that your solution to the problem is MORE government, right?

 

[K9Buck]

To me government is a necessary evil.

It is necessary for a minimal amount of services like defense, courts, police etc.

I don't mind the government doing a literacy education as long as it administrated on a local level in a fiscally responsible manner and focuses on reading, writing and arithmetic.

Most of us would not object to the government building roads providing it is done efficiently and we all share the cost equally.

All government transfer payments are wrong. No welfare, subsidies, grants, bailouts or entitlements.

No foreign aid.

No bloated government agencies that do nothing of real value.

Minimal government regulations.

The government needs to stay out of our lives.

We would have a much more productive, healthy, stronger and happier America if we had such a system.

 

[Blues Man]

no they get those subsidies because they have convinced the government that subsidies are needed and have been getting them since the 1930's

They get those subsidies because inept or corrupt politicians decided to give them subsidies. If we had a more limited government, they wouldn't get them. I take it that your solution to the problem is MORE government, right?

they get subsidies because they tell their representative to get them subsidies.

you cannot say that US farmers are successful if they rely on government subsidies. 22 billion in 2019 in case you didn't know?

And what in any post I have ever made on this board makes you think I am a fan of big government?

 

[K9Buck]

they get subsidies because they tell their representative to get them subsidies.

You keep missing the point. This is the third and last time I'm going to say it. They would be UNABLE to receive subsidies IF we had a more LIMITED government.

 

[alang1216]

I don't believe in destiny or fate or whatever. I do believe we share a common goal of survival, prosperity, love, etc., the things that make us human.

Do you believe that one citizen is obligated to sacrifice for another citizen in order to help them to become more prosperous?

Yes, in some circumstances, mainly if that citizen is a minor.

 

[K9Buck]

Yes, in some circumstances, mainly if that citizen is a minor.

I'm not talking about children. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education? Or do you agree that the government (taxpayer) should get out of the student-loan business?

 

[Flash]

To me government is a necessary evil.

It is necessary for a minimal amount of services like defense, courts, police etc.

I don't mind the government doing a literacy education as long as it administrated on a local level in a fiscally responsible manner and focuses on reading, writing and arithmetic.

Most of us would not object to the government building roads providing it is done efficiently and we all share the cost equally.

All government transfer payments are wrong. No welfare, subsidies, grants, bailouts or entitlements.

No foreign aid.

No bloated government agencies that do nothing of real value.

Minimal government regulations.

The government needs to stay out of our lives.

We would have a much more productive, healthy, stronger and happier America if we had such a system.

In the US we spend far too much for the cost of government because it is so bloated. The total (Federal, State and Local) cost of government comes close to being 40% of the GDP and that is a tremendous burden on the productive economy. It is more than the GDP of all except but about three other countries on earth according to the CIA Factbook.

For most families the direct and indirect cost of government is usually the largest single family annual expenditure. More than the cost of housing or food or just about any single thing.

No wonder most families need two incomes to have a decent livings. The cost of government is the reason.

I am a retired Engineer marrried to school teacher. During most of our career my wife's salary went directly and indirectly for the combined cost of government. I was working for the family and she was working to pay off the filthy government.

Most Americans don't understand the that when they pay for any good or service they indirect pay the cost of taxation to the business that provided the good or service. For instance, the Leftest complain that corporations are not taxed enought but the trillion dollars a year that American corporations are taxed is all paid for by the people that buy the goods and services.

 

[K9Buck]

To me government is a necessary evil.

It is necessary for a minimal amount of services like defense, courts, police etc.

I don't mind the government doing a literacy education as long as it administrated on a local level in a fiscally responsible manner and focuses on reading, writing and arithmetic.

Most of us would not object to the government building roads providing it is done efficiently and we all share the cost equally.

All government transfer payments are wrong. No welfare, subsidies, grants, bailouts or entitlements.

No foreign aid.

No bloated government agencies that do nothing of real value.

Minimal government regulations.

The government needs to stay out of our lives.

We would have a much more productive, healthy, stronger and happier America if we had such a system.

In the US we spend far too much for the cost of government because it is so bloated. The total (Federal, State and Local) cost of government comes close to being 40% of the GDP and that is a tremendous burden on the productive economy. It is more than the GDP of all except but about three other countries on earth according to the CIA Factbook.

For most families the direct and indirect cost of government is usually the largest single family annual expenditure. More than the cost of housing or food or just about anything single thing.

No wonder most families need two incomes to have a decent livings. The cost of government is the reason.

I am a retired Engineer marrried to school teacher. During most of our career my wife's salary went directly and indirectly for the combined cost of government. I was working for the family and she was working to pay off the filthy government.

Most Americans don't understand the that when they pay for any good or service they indirect pay the cost of taxation to the business that provided the good or service. For instance, the Leftest complain that corporations are not taxed enought but the trillion dollars a year that American corporations are taxed is all paid for by the people that buy the goods and services.

Brilliant post. Thank you.

 

[alpine]

ussr fed itself quite well...

That is patently FALSE.

no it is not...

for its location, which is mostly not suitable for farming, it was able to feed its population and even export agricultural products...

The Soviet Union's farming output was DISASTROUS. They had massive food shortages and had to buy huge shipments of grain from the U.S. for YEARS.

Here, read this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...gh-food/2f9d75f9-f76a-4f65-8512-9c29d28e372f/

so you realize ussr has mostly an arctic climate where us was found as a result of colonizers searching for the most suitable land to settle for agricultural activity to begin with, right?...

i dont know how comparing the 2 would make any logical sense to anyone...

look at china, even more centralized compared to ussr, has the yellow river delta and you can see how they thrived just by looking at their population density around it...

did they have famines?...
obviously...
did they make mistakes?...
who doesnt...

but none of the stuff they achieved would be possible without a central planning, which in fact started thousands of years ago, even before a unified china did exist when one engineer decided to gather all individual farmers to dig massive canals to prevent the flooding of the river and being appointed as the head of the first central government of china as a result of his success...

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...
just like how midwest is now failing due to the water shortages and having to rely more and more on irrigation, which again requires a central planning of water usage, since you dont want that ground water to dry out on you but rather support a huge agricultural area with a lot of activity on it...
hence why government agencies keep making bills to manage all these requirements...

 

[K9Buck]

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...

Dude, you're just making this shit up as you go. You've made numerous statements of fact that I easily debunked. You claim that central planning by an all-powerful government bureaucracy is "better" than simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing. Why do you think China abandoned communism and it's failing "central planning" in favor of private ownership under fascist authoritarianism? I'll tell you why - because central planning by government bureaucrats SUCKS. Do you think the Chinese government has any plan to revert to "central planning" anytime soon?

Seriously, you live in some alternative narrative and NOT in reality.

 

[alpine]

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...

Dude, you're just making this shit up as you go. You've made numerous statements of fact that I easily debunked. You claim that central planning by an all-powerful government bureaucracy is "better" than simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing. Why do you think China abandoned communism and it's failing "central planning" in favor of private ownership under fascist authoritarianism? I'll tell you why - because central planning by government bureaucrats SUCKS. Do you think the Chinese government has any plan to revert to "central planning" anytime soon?

Seriously, you live in some alternative narrative and NOT in reality.

debunked?...
really...
wonder what was that you think you debunked...

actually you just diverted from your original point of "non planning individual farmer" to "individuals (i assume by getting together-since its plural) to figure it out"...
which is also called "planning"...

governments are the result of evolutionary processes that cranked for thousands of years...
so it is a refined outcome of what you are trying to describe as "simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing"...
because next thing as soon as they do that is to form a body to manage what they just planned...
and that thing is also called a "government"...
and farmers running it are called "bureaucrats"...

so what you are suggesting now and what you are criticizing are the same things...

 

[alang1216]

Yes, in some circumstances, mainly if that citizen is a minor.

I'm not talking about children. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education? Or do you agree that the government (taxpayer) should get out of the student-loan business?

In any country, you are obligated to do what the government tells you to do. In a democracy, ideally, the government will obligate you to do what the majority of the citizens want you to do. So the question really is, does society benefit from enabling citizens to attend college. Surely there is benefit, but does it outweigh the cost? I don't know and I doubt you do either.

As a pragmatist, I have no ideological problem with it, if it can be justified.

 

[K9Buck]

Yes, in some circumstances, mainly if that citizen is a minor.

I'm not talking about children. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education? Or do you agree that the government (taxpayer) should get out of the student-loan business?

In any country, you are obligated to do what the government tells you to do. In a democracy, ideally, the government will obligate you to do what the majority of the citizens want you to do. So the question really is, does society benefit from enabling citizens to attend college. Surely there is benefit, but does it outweigh the cost? I don't know and I doubt you do either.

As a pragmatist, I have no ideological problem with it, if it can be justified.

I thought it's a simple question. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education?

 

[Flash]

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...

Dude, you're just making this shit up as you go. You've made numerous statements of fact that I easily debunked. You claim that central planning by an all-powerful government bureaucracy is "better" than simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing. Why do you think China abandoned communism and it's failing "central planning" in favor of private ownership under fascist authoritarianism? I'll tell you why - because central planning by government bureaucrats SUCKS. Do you think the Chinese government has any plan to revert to "central planning" anytime soon?

Seriously, you live in some alternative narrative and NOT in reality.

The Leftest don't understand that much too often the "central planning" by someone else robs an individual of their potential and their Liberty. It can be very oppressive as we have seen in many countries. It certainly destroys economies.

Collectivism may work great in a bee hive but humans are not insects.

I trust private enterprise, working to make a profit, to supply quality goods and services at the lowest possible price to any non caring bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups.

Just look at Joe Biden being owned by the Chinese as an example. He will be working to payback China for the money they gave Hunter rather than working for the interest of the American people. He also owes Russia for the millions the Moscow Mayor's wife gave him and then we know about the debt he owes the Ukrainians for that dream job Hunter got.

 

[alpine]

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...

Dude, you're just making this shit up as you go. You've made numerous statements of fact that I easily debunked. You claim that central planning by an all-powerful government bureaucracy is "better" than simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing. Why do you think China abandoned communism and it's failing "central planning" in favor of private ownership under fascist authoritarianism? I'll tell you why - because central planning by government bureaucrats SUCKS. Do you think the Chinese government has any plan to revert to "central planning" anytime soon?

Seriously, you live in some alternative narrative and NOT in reality.

The Leftest don't understand that much too often the "central planning" by someone else robs an individual of their potential and their Liberty. It can be very oppressive as we have seen in many countries. It certainly destroys economies.

Collectivism may work great in a bee hive but humans are not insects.

I trust private enterprise, working to make a profit, to supply quality goods and services at the lowest possible price to any non caring bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups.

Just look at Joe Biden being owned by the Chinese as an example. He will be working to payback China for the money they gave Hunter rather than working for the interest of the American people. He also owes Russia for the millions the Moscow Mayor's wife gave him and then we know about the debt he owes the Ukrainians for that dream job Hunter got.

and how you planning to figure out if it is a quality product or not...
i guess you will look at the packaging to figure that out...

 

[alang1216]

Yes, in some circumstances, mainly if that citizen is a minor.

I'm not talking about children. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education? Or do you agree that the government (taxpayer) should get out of the student-loan business?

In any country, you are obligated to do what the government tells you to do. In a democracy, ideally, the government will obligate you to do what the majority of the citizens want you to do. So the question really is, does society benefit from enabling citizens to attend college. Surely there is benefit, but does it outweigh the cost? I don't know and I doubt you do either.

As a pragmatist, I have no ideological problem with it, if it can be justified.

I thought it's a simple question. Do you believe one citizen is obligated to fund, through government, another citizen's college education?

Sorry you don't like my answer, I tried to keep it short and sweet but it is not a yes/no question.

 

[TNHarley]

Unless you are in govt, it will be the main thing holding you back

 

[Flash]

so without central planning of the water, land, irrigation, crops... any farming is doomed to fail...

Dude, you're just making this shit up as you go. You've made numerous statements of fact that I easily debunked. You claim that central planning by an all-powerful government bureaucracy is "better" than simply letting private individuals figure out their own thing. Why do you think China abandoned communism and it's failing "central planning" in favor of private ownership under fascist authoritarianism? I'll tell you why - because central planning by government bureaucrats SUCKS. Do you think the Chinese government has any plan to revert to "central planning" anytime soon?

Seriously, you live in some alternative narrative and NOT in reality.

The Leftest don't understand that much too often the "central planning" by someone else robs an individual of their potential and their Liberty. It can be very oppressive as we have seen in many countries. It certainly destroys economies.

Collectivism may work great in a bee hive but humans are not insects.

I trust private enterprise, working to make a profit, to supply quality goods and services at the lowest possible price to any non caring bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups.

Just look at Joe Biden being owned by the Chinese as an example. He will be working to payback China for the money they gave Hunter rather than working for the interest of the American people. He also owes Russia for the millions the Moscow Mayor's wife gave him and then we know about the debt he owes the Ukrainians for that dream job Hunter got.

and how you planning to figure out if it is a quality product or not...
i guess you will look at the packaging to figure that out...

I am quite capable of making market decisions. Been doing it all my life. For instance, I have learned that vehicles made by UAW workers are inferior to those made in non union plants.

I sure don't need some stupid uncaring government bureaucrat making decisions for me.