Why do the God-haters persist?

[sealybobo]

that makes no sense ... sort of lost with your argument there, Blade - can we try a Peach, no process there ...



we get what you are implying - of course you never replied to what will be your superior attribute when locked in a room with a hungry Lion.

that's the problem, why do you exclude all other life from spirituality - what you communicate with is not "in your head" why would ( whatever) only communicate with humans ?




you have a point there - except a true Spiritualist does have a religion and Spiritualism exists in all living creatures and to portray otherwise is heretical.

.

I'll agree if there is a god he cares about giraffe and bear and dogs too. Even the tiny Tardigrades.

Either that or he doesn't give a shit about any of us. This is the more probable scenario if there is a god that created this universe.

 

[Boss]

There were for sure benefits to believing in god. Don't get burned at the stake or crucified would be a couple. But there are many more. Just the comfort it must have given to people when their parents never returned from the hunt.

Even if god was important and helped when we were not as smart, for a million reasons I don't think it is necessary or beneficial anymore. Lets just say the pro's don't outweigh the cons. We can do better and don't need a god. What do you think would happen if we got rid of god?

But that's just me. For you it is clearly necessary. Just keep that shit to yourself.

I don't think you can ever get rid of God. You've already refuted your "smartness" argument here, there are many geniuses, MENSAns, scientists, doctors, etc., who believe in God. In fact, many more believe in God than don't. Also, there has been no significant decline in the relative percentage of humans who are spiritual, there are as many of us today as ever. So... say buh-bye to your faith-based belief that we cling to spirituality because we're not smart.

We can't do better because we haven't done better. Yet another opinion you can't substantiate. Just so happens we have a few examples of prominent societies who attempted living without spirituality, and the results are quite dismal. Lenin and Stalin tried it in Russia, over 50 million people died. Mao tried it in China, another 70 million people died. Pol Pot tried it in Cambodia... more millions of deaths. To date, there is no example of a vibrant society which is free from spirituality.

Oh, and I'm sorry but until you are appointed the King, you don't get to tell me what to keep to myself. I have religious freedom in this country, and you have to tolerate it. Sorry!

 

[Boss]

I didn't raise the terminology issue, I am merely addressing it as presented. Sorry if you are confused, but I imagine that is a familiar state for you.... I bet you'll survive!

To clarify: I believe in Spiritual Nature, a force that I routinely connect with and gain benefit from. Whether this constitutes a "deity" or not, I have no way of knowing for certain. It's quite superfluous to me one way or the other. Theological beliefs are related to religious understandings of a Deity God, and in that respect, I am not a theist. So if you go by a broad sense of context, then I guess you could call me a "theist" because I do believe in a "God" which I define as Spiritual Nature. However, I have consistently said I am non-theistic in my beliefs. Take it for what it's worth.

You can't have it both ways. Seems you want it both ways with all your arguments. This one and a couple more.

1. If something must have created all this, what created the thing that created all this? Why does one have to have a cause but the other doesn't? And how do you know? You don't.

Why are you repeating arguments that have already been addressed? Have you already forgotten the answers presented for this? By "created all this" you mean a physical material creation of stuff.... God is not physical or material.

Having it both ways? Why don't you explain this? Do you mean, me having my way with you up one side and down the other? Turning your ass every which way but loose?

2. Also your argument since most people believe then it must be true. Same goes for most people think you are gong to hell. Muslims and Christians combined plus every other believer. From the beginning when we first made this shit up, we always believed that other people who are not one of us or believe like we do will not go to heaven. Why? Because god told them. In other words we've been lying about god from the time we invented him. Hense all the bullshit fake ass fairy tales of creation and times when god talked to us. LIES!

So remember, If your theory holds true that because we always believed ignorant things then every ignorant thing we ever believed must be true. And if majority rules, you're going to hell with me. lol

I have never argued that since most people believe then it must be true. I stated that 90% of the species is, and always has been, spiritual. Because we know from nature and science that living things don't adopt behavior that has no fundamental reason or purpose, we have to assume human spirituality is a fundamental aspect to human behavior. You agreed with this above, but now you are back to trying to misconstrue something I said to make an inane point.

You've still provided NO evidence that we invented spirituality. Do you really think repeating your opinions over and over again is going to make up for your lack of evidence?

 

[Boss]

Consuming alcohol and swearing in public both have benefit and purpose.

that makes no sense ... sort of lost with your argument there, Blade - can we try a Peach, no process there ...

Try to follow closely... when a person consumes alcohol, they have a purpose and reason for doing it. The same with cursing in public.

Don't know any Blade or Peach, so I can't comment.

it's apparent that humans are far more advanced and sophisticated than any other living thing.

we get what you are implying - of course you never replied to what will be your superior attribute when locked in a room with a hungry Lion.

Well I hope I am never in that situation. Daniel, according to the Bible, was in that situation and his "superior attribute" was devout faith in God. Since I believe in the power of Spiritual Nature, I would probably rely on that, given I have no superior physical attribute over a hungry lion.

I don't know much about 'original spirituality'

Sorry, that's not original spirituality. Try again.

but I know humans have always been spiritual creatures.

that's the problem, why do you exclude all other life from spirituality - what you communicate with is not "in your head" why would ( whatever) only communicate with humans ?

I've not excluded anything. All normal humans have two eyes... doesn't mean nothing else in nature has eyes. Humans communicate with each other through language... doesn't mean other things don't communicate with language. You're trying to take something I said and twist it into something I never argued. Why? What is the purpose of this?

Again I ask, why are you busting MY chops when we both agree there is a spiritual nature?

you have a point there - except a true Spiritualist does have a religion and Spiritualism exists in all living creatures and to portray otherwise is heretical.
.

Well I don't believe in heresy, since that is a religious precept.

 

[daws101]

only in your dreams...your answer just highlights that bossys bullshit has not evolved in nearly 300 pages..

evolution takes millions of years, daws......you probably don't have that much time before you get banned again.....

knowledge evolves much faster than life....since bossy's yammering has not evolved it will be left in the garbage pile of history like phrenology and the vapors..

 

[daws101]

So they lied or made it up? Because today we know floods aren't caused by god(s). You do know that right?

Excuse me, but we do NOT know this. We know how floods happen, we're uncertain on why. Yes, they can be physically explained, we still don't know why they happen, or why climate functions as it does, for that matter. We can explain how it works, but that is not to be confused with WHY it works.

You don't know that they lied or made anything up. Someone supposedly told Noah to build a big ass boat. Now... maybe it was an alien who knew that Earth was to be impacted by an asteroid soon? Don't know... it's possible.

We do know the Earth has encountered several mass extinction events, the archeology shows us this much. If you learn of a way to avoid those, there's probably a Nobel Prize waiting for ya. The fact remains, as Neil Degrassey-head sez... the Universe has many ways to kill us.

You don't know WHY.

the answer to why depends entirely on your own personal pov...in the case of flooding or fires or earthquakes and many human endeavors the how and the why are one in the same...

 

[daws101]

only in your dreams...your answer just highlights that bossys bullshit has not evolved in nearly 300 pages..

That's just because you are too thick headed to accept spiritual evidence that does not qualify as any kind of evidence so of course you are incapable of accepting spiritual realities that are not real..

Unbeliever!

 

[BillyP]

Can you really hate something for which there is no proof? Wouldn't you just hate the idea? And anyways, who decided that god made the world in 6 days?

 

[daws101]

Can you really hate something for which there is no proof? Wouldn't you just hate the idea? And anyways, who decided that god made the world in 6 days?

in reality there is no proof that god does or does not exist..however, believers interpret that as does exist...

 

[sealybobo]

There were for sure benefits to believing in god. Don't get burned at the stake or crucified would be a couple. But there are many more. Just the comfort it must have given to people when their parents never returned from the hunt.

Even if god was important and helped when we were not as smart, for a million reasons I don't think it is necessary or beneficial anymore. Lets just say the pro's don't outweigh the cons. We can do better and don't need a god. What do you think would happen if we got rid of god?

But that's just me. For you it is clearly necessary. Just keep that shit to yourself.

I don't think you can ever get rid of God. You've already refuted your "smartness" argument here, there are many geniuses, MENSAns, scientists, doctors, etc., who believe in God. In fact, many more believe in God than don't. Also, there has been no significant decline in the relative percentage of humans who are spiritual, there are as many of us today as ever. So... say buh-bye to your faith-based belief that we cling to spirituality because we're not smart.

We can't do better because we haven't done better. Yet another opinion you can't substantiate. Just so happens we have a few examples of prominent societies who attempted living without spirituality, and the results are quite dismal. Lenin and Stalin tried it in Russia, over 50 million people died. Mao tried it in China, another 70 million people died. Pol Pot tried it in Cambodia... more millions of deaths. To date, there is no example of a vibrant society which is free from spirituality.

Oh, and I'm sorry but until you are appointed the King, you don't get to tell me what to keep to myself. I have religious freedom in this country, and you have to tolerate it. Sorry!

Fact is if you put 1000 smart people together, you'll find a lot of atheists. And if you put a bunch of stupid people together you will get a higher number of believers.

scientists in the United States are more likely to not believe in God when compared to nonscientists [source: The Pew Research Center]. Here are the numbers from one 2009 Pew Research Center survey:

• One-third of scientists said they believed in God, compared to 83 percent of the general public surveyed.
• Nearly one-fifth reported not believing in God but having faith in a higher power (general public came in at 12 percent).
• Roughly two-fifths said they didn't believe in a God or higher power (4 percent among the general public).

 

[BreezeWood]

BW: you know perfectly well I include all life, Flora and Fauna as Spiritual creatures equally aspiring Admission to the Everlasting. it is you who deceivingly insist the issue is not debatable (without your evidence) and blindly insist on a hierarchy for humanity. - similar to the desert religions but not from the initial spirituality from Antiquity.

Boss: It's not blindly... it's apparent that humans are far more advanced and sophisticated than any other living thing. It's also apparent humans spiritually worship. Any 'hierarchy' is a perception you've drawn based on those presented facts. I don't know much about 'original spirituality' and I doubt you do either, but I know humans have always been spiritual creatures.

I don't know much about 'original spirituality'

Boss: Sorry, that's not original spirituality. Try again.

oh, and why not ?

it is you who deceivingly insist the issue is not debatable (without your evidence) and blindly insist on a hierarchy for humanity. - similar to the desert religions but not from the initial spirituality from Antiquity.

what is your example of spirituality from antiquity - the example that excludes Fauna and Flora, or all other life's of supernatural from that period that centers solely on humanity.

Blade: Well I hope I am never in that situation. Daniel, according to the Bible, was in that situation and his "superior attribute" was devout faith in God. Since I believe in the power of Spiritual Nature, I would probably rely on that, given I have no superior physical attribute over a hungry lion.

sure, and you are going to ask your "personal humanity" God for help ( against the Lion ) - good luck.

.

 

[sealybobo]

I didn't raise the terminology issue, I am merely addressing it as presented. Sorry if you are confused, but I imagine that is a familiar state for you.... I bet you'll survive!

To clarify: I believe in Spiritual Nature, a force that I routinely connect with and gain benefit from. Whether this constitutes a "deity" or not, I have no way of knowing for certain. It's quite superfluous to me one way or the other. Theological beliefs are related to religious understandings of a Deity God, and in that respect, I am not a theist. So if you go by a broad sense of context, then I guess you could call me a "theist" because I do believe in a "God" which I define as Spiritual Nature. However, I have consistently said I am non-theistic in my beliefs. Take it for what it's worth.

You can't have it both ways. Seems you want it both ways with all your arguments. This one and a couple more.

1. If something must have created all this, what created the thing that created all this? Why does one have to have a cause but the other doesn't? And how do you know? You don't.

Why are you repeating arguments that have already been addressed? Have you already forgotten the answers presented for this? By "created all this" you mean a physical material creation of stuff.... God is not physical or material.

Having it both ways? Why don't you explain this? Do you mean, me having my way with you up one side and down the other? Turning your ass every which way but loose?

2. Also your argument since most people believe then it must be true. Same goes for most people think you are gong to hell. Muslims and Christians combined plus every other believer. From the beginning when we first made this shit up, we always believed that other people who are not one of us or believe like we do will not go to heaven. Why? Because god told them. In other words we've been lying about god from the time we invented him. Hense all the bullshit fake ass fairy tales of creation and times when god talked to us. LIES!

So remember, If your theory holds true that because we always believed ignorant things then every ignorant thing we ever believed must be true. And if majority rules, you're going to hell with me. lol

I have never argued that since most people believe then it must be true. I stated that 90% of the species is, and always has been, spiritual. Because we know from nature and science that living things don't adopt behavior that has no fundamental reason or purpose, we have to assume human spirituality is a fundamental aspect to human behavior. You agreed with this above, but now you are back to trying to misconstrue something I said to make an inane point.

You've still provided NO evidence that we invented spirituality. Do you really think repeating your opinions over and over again is going to make up for your lack of evidence?

Of course I have provided you tons of evidence. Just the fact you keep bringing up your "no fundamental reason or purpose" argument when I've explained to you several times that there was/is a purpose for believing in god. It makes you happy stupid.

And yes you have said that two of your bad reasons for believing in god is because:

a. Most people believe &
b. Because people have believed for as far back as we can tell.

You say this is your proof a spirit or god exists. Am I wrong? If I am wrong, what reasons again to you have for believing in god?

 

[Boss]

Fact is if you put 1000 smart people together, you'll find a lot of atheists. And if you put a bunch of stupid people together you will get a higher number of believers.

scientists in the United States are more likely to not believe in God when compared to nonscientists [source: The Pew Research Center]. Here are the numbers from one 2009 Pew Research Center survey:

• One-third of scientists said they believed in God, compared to 83 percent of the general public surveyed.
• Nearly one-fifth reported not believing in God but having faith in a higher power (general public came in at 12 percent).
• Roughly two-fifths said they didn't believe in a God or higher power (4 percent among the general public).

Fact is, the most atheistic group you can find shows less than half don't believe in God and more than half believe in God or a higher power. So even with your "1000 smart people" argument, you fail... most of them believe in something greater than self.

I think it was also a Pew study that examined the most atheist country on the planet, Sweden. They found 33% claimed to be atheist, 66% claimed some spiritual belief. What was really interesting was the follow-up question asked of the atheists... Less than half of that 33% were willing to go so far as to say they did not believe in any possibility of something greater than self. I guess the majority were "agnostic" atheists?

Scientists, not scientists, smart people, dumb people, atheist country or not... doesn't matter, a majority believe in something greater than self. Even in a group of ALL atheists!

 

[Boss]

Boss: Sorry, that's not original spirituality. Try again.

oh, and why not ?

it is you who deceivingly insist the issue is not debatable (without your evidence) and blindly insist on a hierarchy for humanity. - similar to the desert religions but not from the initial spirituality from Antiquity.

what is your example of spirituality from antiquity - the example that excludes Fauna and Flora, or all other life's of supernatural from that period that centers solely on humanity.

Why do you keep insisting that I am arguing on behalf of only humanity, ignoring what I've said to the contrary? I don't know that other living things aren't spiritual. I don't see the evidence of it but it doesn't mean it's not possible. Perhaps it's something that can't be seen by us? I'll accept that possibility. It has nothing to do with humans who are spiritual and always have been.

The example of human spirituality goes back to the very first signs of human civilization, where they practiced ritual ceremonies and burials. This predates your Egyptian statue by tens of thousands of years. What you are showing is signs of early religious beliefs.

Boss: Well I hope I am never in that situation. Daniel, according to the Bible, was in that situation and his "superior attribute" was devout faith in God. Since I believe in the power of Spiritual Nature, I would probably rely on that, given I have no superior physical attribute over a hungry lion.

sure, and you are going to ask your "personal humanity" God for help ( against the Lion ) - good luck.

.

No, I am going to appeal to Spiritual Nature because that's my only hope against a hungry lion. What are YOU going to do?

Oh, and please stop calling me "Blade." I don't know who that is but obviously you miss them and long for their return. I get that, I understand it... but I'm Boss, always have been. Sorry!

 

[Boss]

knowledge evolves much faster than life....since bossy's yammering has not evolved it will be left in the garbage pile of history like phrenology and the vapors..

I disagree. Knowledge, when applied to you, seems to vanish into a black hole, never to be seen or heard from again. Any surface knowledge which remains on the event horizon is converted to anti-knowledge and spewed back out from your oral orifice into the universe. Science is perplexed.

 

[Boss]

Of course I have provided you tons of evidence. Just the fact you keep bringing up your "no fundamental reason or purpose" argument when I've explained to you several times that there was/is a purpose for believing in god. It makes you happy stupid.

And yes you have said that two of your bad reasons for believing in god is because:

a. Most people believe &
b. Because people have believed for as far back as we can tell.

You say this is your proof a spirit or god exists. Am I wrong? If I am wrong, what reasons again to you have for believing in god?

Yes, you are wrong. The reason I personally have for believing in God is because I talk to God and God answers my prayers. The reason most humans, now and forever, believe in God is because humans are spiritually connected. I've never claimed I could prove God exists.

Now that is important to note, because it all comes down to semantics. To "exist" can generally mean, in a state of physical material reality. Since spiritual nature, by definition, is not physical or material, it cannot have physical or material existence. It has a spiritual presence, not a physical existence.

Back to this supposed "ton of evidence" you claim to have presented... where is it? You've repeatedly stated that "we don't know" but then you pop off some opinion as if it's a "fact of science" and that's all you've been doing the entire thread, best I can tell. It seems you may be confusing your baseless opinions with evidence.

My "no fundamental reason or purpose" argument is to refute your argument that humans invented spirituality, and all this God belief is from our wild imaginations. Not only have you failed to show any scientific evidence for that claim, it doesn't comport with logic or reason and completely contradicts nature as we understand it.

 

[Boss]

the answer to why depends entirely on your own personal pov...in the case of flooding or fires or earthquakes and many human endeavors the how and the why are one in the same...

But how and why are two different questions. To make them the same is called "circular reasoning." That's the most convenient way out when you don't have an answer. It all boils down to the old "JUST BECAUSE" argument.

 

[sealybobo]

Fact is if you put 1000 smart people together, you'll find a lot of atheists. And if you put a bunch of stupid people together you will get a higher number of believers.

scientists in the United States are more likely to not believe in God when compared to nonscientists [source: The Pew Research Center]. Here are the numbers from one 2009 Pew Research Center survey:

• One-third of scientists said they believed in God, compared to 83 percent of the general public surveyed.
• Nearly one-fifth reported not believing in God but having faith in a higher power (general public came in at 12 percent).
• Roughly two-fifths said they didn't believe in a God or higher power (4 percent among the general public).

Fact is, the most atheistic group you can find shows less than half don't believe in God and more than half believe in God or a higher power. So even with your "1000 smart people" argument, you fail... most of them believe in something greater than self.

I think it was also a Pew study that examined the most atheist country on the planet, Sweden. They found 33% claimed to be atheist, 66% claimed some spiritual belief. What was really interesting was the follow-up question asked of the atheists... Less than half of that 33% were willing to go so far as to say they did not believe in any possibility of something greater than self. I guess the majority were "agnostic" atheists?

Scientists, not scientists, smart people, dumb people, atheist country or not... doesn't matter, a majority believe in something greater than self. Even in a group of ALL atheists!

Argumentum ad populum. The popularity of an idea says nothing of its veracity.

Geocentrism, a flat earth, creationism, astrology, alchemy and the occult were all once pervasive beliefs.

Furthermore, religions are culturally relative and, for the most part, are inconsistent and mutually exclusive.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

And I told you most atheists are actually agnostic atheists. Remember, we don't know what's on the other side of a black hole yet either. We remain open to all posibilities. You're twist on a creator is actually really lame. You are smart enough to realize religions are made up but you can't imagine that the entire premise is too. Interesting.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

 

[sealybobo]

Of course I have provided you tons of evidence. Just the fact you keep bringing up your "no fundamental reason or purpose" argument when I've explained to you several times that there was/is a purpose for believing in god. It makes you happy stupid.

And yes you have said that two of your bad reasons for believing in god is because:

a. Most people believe &
b. Because people have believed for as far back as we can tell.

You say this is your proof a spirit or god exists. Am I wrong? If I am wrong, what reasons again to you have for believing in god?

Yes, you are wrong. The reason I personally have for believing in God is because I talk to God and God answers my prayers. The reason most humans, now and forever, believe in God is because humans are spiritually connected. I've never claimed I could prove God exists.

Now that is important to note, because it all comes down to semantics. To "exist" can generally mean, in a state of physical material reality. Since spiritual nature, by definition, is not physical or material, it cannot have physical or material existence. It has a spiritual presence, not a physical existence.

Back to this supposed "ton of evidence" you claim to have presented... where is it? You've repeatedly stated that "we don't know" but then you pop off some opinion as if it's a "fact of science" and that's all you've been doing the entire thread, best I can tell. It seems you may be confusing your baseless opinions with evidence.

My "no fundamental reason or purpose" argument is to refute your argument that humans invented spirituality, and all this God belief is from our wild imaginations. Not only have you failed to show any scientific evidence for that claim, it doesn't comport with logic or reason and completely contradicts nature as we understand it.

Yes it is true science is/has proven that god is all in your head(s)

It started out as an ordinary day for Saul back in A.D. 36. He wanted to murder disciples of a man who claimed to be the Messiah, and he was on his way to Damascus to do so. Then, on the way to Damascus, a light flashed all around Saul. He fell to the ground and heard a voice that claimed to be Jesus Christ. The voice told him to continue to the town, a task likely made no easier by the blindness Saul experienced when he got up. Saul remained blind for three days, until a disciple named Ananias laid hands upon him. Saul's sight was restored, and he immediately became baptized. After his experience, Saul became a powerful preacher for Jesus; today, he's better known as St. Paul.

Paul's story is interesting not just to biblical scholars, but to neuro-

scientists as well. Some scientists claim that the account of this conversion, found in the book of Acts, contains enough evidence to diagnose Paul with temporal lobe epilepsy.

HowStuffWorks "Is the brain hardwired for religion?"

Who knows what's in your head if you are talking to a god you dope. lol

 

[Montrovant]

Fact is if you put 1000 smart people together, you'll find a lot of atheists. And if you put a bunch of stupid people together you will get a higher number of believers.

scientists in the United States are more likely to not believe in God when compared to nonscientists [source: The Pew Research Center]. Here are the numbers from one 2009 Pew Research Center survey:

• One-third of scientists said they believed in God, compared to 83 percent of the general public surveyed.
• Nearly one-fifth reported not believing in God but having faith in a higher power (general public came in at 12 percent).
• Roughly two-fifths said they didn't believe in a God or higher power (4 percent among the general public).

Fact is, the most atheistic group you can find shows less than half don't believe in God and more than half believe in God or a higher power. So even with your "1000 smart people" argument, you fail... most of them believe in something greater than self.

I think it was also a Pew study that examined the most atheist country on the planet, Sweden. They found 33% claimed to be atheist, 66% claimed some spiritual belief. What was really interesting was the follow-up question asked of the atheists... Less than half of that 33% were willing to go so far as to say they did not believe in any possibility of something greater than self. I guess the majority were "agnostic" atheists?

Scientists, not scientists, smart people, dumb people, atheist country or not... doesn't matter, a majority believe in something greater than self. Even in a group of ALL atheists!

A majority believe in the possibility of something greater than self, even in a group of all atheists. A bit of an important distinction. Otherwise, I agree, most believe in something religious or spiritual.