Obama Says You're On Your Own Without Him. Good. Who Needs Him.

[Soggy in NOLA]

Obama has been telling border states for almost 3 years that we're on our own when it comes to illegal immigration.

 

[Dragon]

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that government social infrastructure such as education spending and support for labor rights leads to concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media. Do I have that right?

If so, could you please give us a historical example of this actually happening?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that government social infrastructure such as education spending and support for labor rights leads to concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media. Do I have that right?

If so, could you please give us a historical example of this actually happening?

No, that's your twisted interpretation of a relatively easy to understand post.

 

[mudwhistle]

CEOs now making 400X as much as average worker, AND paying less in taxes. There's the epitome of what's killing the country- the infrastructure and the non rich are in ruins...

They are not paying less in taxes, that is a common liberal claim that is utterly false.
The bottom 53% pay ZERO income taxes...in fact have a negative tax liability.

Wrong again- in the real world, the poorest 53% pay as much %wise in ALL taxes and fees as the richest. Gas tax, registrations, sales tax, fees fees fees, LOCAL income taxes and property taxes. Hell, payroll taxes bring in more than income tax now, for the first time EVER. You are misled.

Sounds like a floating argument.

The poor pay more tax on booze and tobacco then anybody, but who's the crooked bastard that raised them since he took office in 09'?

Obama fails to mention how he's screwing the poor. He just wants us to think he's trying to screw the rich.

Seriously; Can we really afford 4 more years of this guy? Everything he touches becomes more burdensome and more expensive.

 

[Dragon]

No, that's your twisted interpretation of a relatively easy to understand post.

If it's that easy to understand, then why don't you explain it?

We're discussing Obama's advocacy of more government action to promote employment and help out people who aren't already rich. Someone brought up the word "totalitarian." What's the connection between the two?

If you, or Si modo, or whoever aren't saying that government action to promote employment and help out people who aren't already rich will lead to totalitarianism, what the hell ARE you trying to say? Anything at all?

 

[Si modo]

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that government social infrastructure such as education spending and support for labor rights leads to concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media. Do I have that right?
....

Nope.

If so, could you please give us a historical example of this actually happening?

You already gave the examples. Or did you forget? Gulags, Concentration camps, re-education camps, state-controlled media, etc.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

No, that's your twisted interpretation of a relatively easy to understand post.

If it's that easy to understand, then why don't you explain it?

We're discussing Obama's advocacy of more government action to promote employment and help out people who aren't already rich. Someone brought up the word "totalitarian." What's the connection between the two?

If you, or Si modo, or whoever aren't saying that government action to promote employment and help out people who aren't already rich will lead to totalitarianism, what the hell ARE you trying to say? Anything at all?

To quote Gerald Ford:

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have"

That's what we are saying.

 

[Dragon]

To quote Gerald Ford:

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have"

That's what we are saying.

Pretty vague. Nobody's talking about government giving people "everything they want."

Besides, this sounds like you ARE saying that Obama's proposals will lead to totalitarian government.

Si modo:

I gave examples of totalitarian government in action, that's all. What does that have to do with what Obama's talking about? He's certainly not advocating concentration camps, unless you have that view of Guantanamo (which I do but you probably don't).

Connect the dots, please.

(And forgive me if I suspect that the reason you won't, is because it would make it painfully obvious just how stupid you guys are being.)

 

[Katzndogz]

We have a population that is composed of too many infants. They are terrified that they will someday have to take care of themselves. They don't want a safety net but a hammock. Feed me, comfort me, clothe me, perpetual children that refuse to step out in the street.

 

[Si modo]

To quote Gerald Ford:

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have"

That's what we are saying.

Pretty vague. Nobody's talking about government giving people "everything they want."

Besides, this sounds like you ARE saying that Obama's proposals will lead to totalitarian government.

Si modo:

I gave examples of totalitarian government in action, that's all. What does that have to do with what Obama's talking about? He's certainly not advocating concentration camps, unless you have that view of Guantanamo (which I do but you probably don't).

Connect the dots, please.

....

I have no desire to connect points I make to your strawmen.

Thanks for the offer, though.

.... (And forgive me if I suspect that the reason you won't, is because it would make it painfully obvious just how stupid you guys are being.)

You're feeling a tad bit uncomfortable in the lack of any meat to your argument for more authority of government over our lives.

So, to get you to focus on the original game you were playing, and not on strawmen and other goalposts, here is what I said:

Much as you on the right would like to believe that American cultural tradition is one of self-reliance, you are only half right. Collective action and community are as much a part of our culture and self-image as self-reliance and competition. ....

Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Actually, quite a lot of people on this board are denying that. I direct your attention once more to the title of this thread, which clearly indicates a preference for being "on our own." It's a common theme on the right.
....

And, ask any of them if they are against communities and charities helping others.

Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists.

You have a strange implied definition of "totalitarian" here. Generally speaking that implies concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media, not support for organized labor or government spending to educate kids.

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

Most of us like the freedom to self-realize. And most who are grown ups, know that comes with the outcome of success (however each individual defines their own success and their right to define that for themselves) or failure. It's a grown up thing to do.

Sorry if you don't like facts.

 

[Dragon]

I have no desire to connect points I make to your strawmen.

We're not discussing strawmen. We're discussing your insertion of the concept of totalitarianism. What does totalitarianism have to do with what Obama is talking about?

If it has nothing to do with what Obama is talking about, say so and the subject will be dropped. If it does, clarify that and we'll go from there.

By the way, the distinction between non-government-mediated and government-mediated community efforts is spurious. The one may work well in a small society where everyone knows everyone else, but it fails in the context of a society of strangers. So no, that was not a straw man. What is being objected to here is not merely government but all communitarianism.

If that weren't so, then the response to it would be phrased as a call for voluntary action to help out those the slack economy has harmed, not for those harmed by it to stand on their own two feet and stop whining.

 

[Si modo]

I have no desire to connect points I make to your strawmen.

We're not discussing strawmen. We're discussing your insertion of the concept of totalitarianism. What does totalitarianism have to do with what Obama is talking about?

....

I never said it did. If I did, then you could argue that with me. As I didn't say that, you're arguing with yourself.

I even provided you with what I said.

You're arguing a strawman.

See if you can address what I said, not your fantasies of what I said.

Once again, review what I said, and have said, above. Just there ^^^^^. Right above so that you don't have to scroll.

 

[Katzndogz]

When you expect the government to do for you, take care of you, see to your health, food, housing. What happens when the government suddenly decides that it has enough power it doesn't need you anymore? Liberals envision an eternally benevolent Papa as President. Eventually though, the people become nothing more than a burden on a powerful government. That's when the concentration camps and gulags happen. Not in the beginning. It's the end result. The government gets jealous of its power, it won't tolerate dissent (much like liberals today). The people are lured into becoming slaves to it with promises of being provided for.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

To quote Gerald Ford:

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have"

That's what we are saying.

Pretty vague. Nobody's talking about government giving people "everything they want."

Besides, this sounds like you ARE saying that Obama's proposals will lead to totalitarian government.

Si modo:

I gave examples of totalitarian government in action, that's all. What does that have to do with what Obama's talking about? He's certainly not advocating concentration camps, unless you have that view of Guantanamo (which I do but you probably don't).

Connect the dots, please.

(And forgive me if I suspect that the reason you won't, is because it would make it painfully obvious just how stupid you guys are being.)

I dunno man... I can't remember a time in my life where government's involvement in our lives hasn't continually increased. Seems like trend to me.

 

[Dragon]

I never said [what Obama is talking about] did [have anything to do with totalitarianism].

Good enough. Then we agree it does not and can now drop that subject.

I even provided you with what I said.

What you said wasn't clearly saying anything. Hence the confusion. Why don't you restate your position so that it makes sense.

 

[Si modo]

I never said [what Obama is talking about] did [have anything to do with totalitarianism].

Good enough. Then we agree it does not and can now drop that subject.
....

Maybe you'll stop wasting my time with strawmen, then.

I'll thank you in advance.

I even provided you with what I said.

What you said wasn't clearly saying anything. Hence the confusion. Why don't you restate your position so that it makes sense.

I addressed your idiocy.

I'm fine with that.

Much as you on the right would like to believe that American cultural tradition is one of self-reliance, you are only half right. Collective action and community are as much a part of our culture and self-image as self-reliance and competition. ....

Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Actually, quite a lot of people on this board are denying that. I direct your attention once more to the title of this thread, which clearly indicates a preference for being "on our own." It's a common theme on the right.
....

And, ask any of them if they are against communities and charities helping others.

Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists.

You have a strange implied definition of "totalitarian" here. Generally speaking that implies concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media, not support for organized labor or government spending to educate kids.

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

Most of us like the freedom to self-realize. And most who are grown ups, know that comes with the outcome of success (however each individual defines their own success and their right to define that for themselves) or failure. It's a grown up thing to do.

Sorry if you don't like facts.

 

[Dragon]

I addressed your idiocy.

I'm fine with that.

Now you're verbally masturbating. I guess if you're fine with that, too, we're done here.

 

[Si modo]

I addressed your idiocy.

I'm fine with that.

Now you're verbally masturbating. I guess if you're fine with that, too, we're done here.

Obviously we're done here.

You haven't anything to say to what I actually said.

When you do address what I actually said (and if you don't understand it, let me know what confuses you), we can continue.

But arguing your strawmen then telling me I am stupid for not doing so, is not substitute for addressing what I said.

Much as you on the right would like to believe that American cultural tradition is one of self-reliance, you are only half right. Collective action and community are as much a part of our culture and self-image as self-reliance and competition. ....

Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Actually, quite a lot of people on this board are denying that. I direct your attention once more to the title of this thread, which clearly indicates a preference for being "on our own." It's a common theme on the right.
....

And, ask any of them if they are against communities and charities helping others.

Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists.

You have a strange implied definition of "totalitarian" here. Generally speaking that implies concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media, not support for organized labor or government spending to educate kids.

That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

Most of us like the freedom to self-realize. And most who are grown ups, know that comes with the outcome of success (however each individual defines their own success and their right to define that for themselves) or failure. It's a grown up thing to do.

Sorry if you don't like facts.

Ball is still in your court, Dragon. If you don't want to return it to mine, that is fine. But, cut the crap. I have an excellent nose for it.