Obama Says You're On Your Own Without Him. Good. Who Needs Him.

I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

This American government — what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed upon, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient, by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of india-rubber, would never manage to bounce over obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievious persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at one no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it. - Thoreau

Henry David Thoreau: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience
 
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

This American government — what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed upon, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient, by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of india-rubber, would never manage to bounce over obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievious persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at one no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it. - Thoreau

Henry David Thoreau: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience

If only a truly free market would self-Govern - it wouldn't. We know this how? History Books.
 
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

This American government — what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed upon, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient, by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of india-rubber, would never manage to bounce over obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievious persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at one no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it. - Thoreau

Henry David Thoreau: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience

If only a truly free market would self-Govern - it wouldn't. We know this how? History Books.

I'm not arguing against an Impartial Referee, just the corrupted one. ;)
 
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

This American government — what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed upon, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient, by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of india-rubber, would never manage to bounce over obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievious persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at one no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it. - Thoreau

Henry David Thoreau: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience

If only a truly free market would self-Govern - it wouldn't. We know this how? History Books.

I'm not arguing against an Impartial Referee, just the corrupted one. ;)

1, 000% agree, tbh.
 
This is the second thread on this same topic. One more example of how the New Right has nothing constructive to post. I used to believe the proud and loud members of the echo chamber were simply ignorant and needed attention - it's becoming quite obvious I had them pegged wrongly, they are simply simple. There ignorance is a by-product of concrete thinking; cause and effect, ends and means, process all mean nothing to them, they are abstractions beyond their means. Sad.

I think you meant to say the left instead of the right didn't you? :eusa_whistle:
 
When I was sick, I did what I had to do when I was poor. Used the ER and paid them what I could. I took out a loan for college.
And no one is saying lets let the corporations pollute the air. We are referring to crippling regulations that are less intrusive on our environment...Like my client who was forced to widen his loading bays by 6 inches even though they met code when he purchased the property and never had a "space" related accident of any kind...and after the large out of pocket cost during a recession....you cant even see the difference.
Not to mention the 2 weeks loss of shipping ability during the construction.

Corporations don't HAVE crippling regulations - their profits are at an all time high - that's not crippled.

Also - you're deflecting.

You've a problem with what Obama said, yet to his point: medicare, pollutions, financial aid------you're not disagreeing with him.

LOL NOPE THEY DONT, THATS WHY THEY ARE EXPANDING AT RECORD LEVEL PACES. :lol:



corporations want govt spending to grow. All that money winds up their their pockets anyway.
 
Still trying to brainwash people into supporting his ways i see......

Who needs his stupid ass?? HE ONLY WANTS TO DESTROY THIS COUNTRY,if that isnt painfully apparent,I DONT KNOW WHAT IS!!

Actually, he's appealing to people to THINK, a message which obviously went 'whoosh!' on your ass.
 
Much as you on the right would like to believe that American cultural tradition is one of self-reliance, you are only half right. Collective action and community are as much a part of our culture and self-image as self-reliance and competition. ....
Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists. ;)
 
It makes ALOT of difference. I find it amazing not one of you question the wealth disparity in this country. I find it amazing not one of you doesn't find that 470:1 executive to employee compensation is completely out of whack. Without minimum wage laws and overtime rules, corporations would be paying pennies to employees and working them to death. It seems that people are :gasp: really greedy.

And history shows that when wealth disparity gets to great..something breaks.

And thus why we have minimum wage and overtime laws.

Curious....do you look for the best price on an item that you buy....like a TV?

Why are you allowed to try to spend as little as you can get away with, but business owner cant?

People ARE greedy...we want to make as much money as we can and spend as little of it as we can while satisfying our desire for "stuff".

Is there something wrong with that?

Why?

Because we should recognize that greed isn't a good or bad thing. But that it exists.

And there's really nothing wrong with it. But people with access to vast amounts of liquidity will do their very best to get most of it.

So there should be parameters set both ways. On minimum wage and maximum wage.

Wealth, by itself, is not the problem. Obscene out of whack wealth..is..

There are good points in what you are saying here.
It is dishonest for someone to say that there is nothing wrong with a system whereby one man earns 1000% more than the average non management employee. A maximum wage is not something I could agree on, however I would have no problem with someone who makes say... over $10 million per year pays a 75% tax rate. Someone who makes over $10 mil and does not employ over 1000 people...should pay maybe 80% tax rate.
I think there should also be higher tax rates for high-high wage earners whose company employs more foreigners than Americans, but whose business earnings are primarily American consumer purchases.

A lot of my fellow fiscal conservative may croak at above - but nevertheless there is something wrong with a system where long-term employees have stagnant wages and decreasing benefits while upper-management officers are making extreme earnings.
 
Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Actually, quite a lot of people on this board are denying that. I direct your attention once more to the title of this thread, which clearly indicates a preference for being "on our own." It's a common theme on the right.

Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists. ;)

You have a strange implied definition of "totalitarian" here. Generally speaking that implies concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media, not support for organized labor or government spending to educate kids.
 
I will not deflect. Local government is broke, most state governments are broke and the federal government is broken. Of course, that can be debated on another thread, one in which I have personal and professional experience at all three levels.

My question is, what constructive ideas are offered by those 'New Righter's? In my life experience, I have seen the rise of the New Left (in the 60's) and the rise of the New Right (in the late 90's); both movements were iconoclastic to the extreme and divisive to the extreme.

So I ask, what form of government/society/culture do you wish to live in and leave to our posterity?

Public sector spending and pensions are unsustainable

Yeah..but having people with personal wealth upward of 48 billion is sustainable.

You guys are funny. :lol:

Yes, people can succeed in America. It's a beautiful thing.

On the other hand, your Progressive economic system has a 100% fail rate.

Clue: Get one today
 
Few are denying that. Most don't want government to legislate culture.

Actually, quite a lot of people on this board are denying that. I direct your attention once more to the title of this thread, which clearly indicates a preference for being "on our own." It's a common theme on the right.
....

And, ask any of them if they are against communities and charities helping others.



Too totalitarian for most tastes, except for those of idealist Marxists. ;)

You have a strange implied definition of "totalitarian" here. Generally speaking that implies concentration camps, gulags, and state-controlled media, not support for organized labor or government spending to educate kids.
That's what totalitarian rule leads to.

Let's have laws telling folks what to think and what the correct culture is for them. We all need nannies, still, too.

Most of us like the freedom to self-realize. And most who are grown ups, know that comes with the outcome of success (however each individual defines their own success and their right to define that for themselves) or failure. It's a grown up thing to do.

Sorry if you don't like facts.
 
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CEOs now making 400X as much as average worker, AND paying less in taxes. There's the epitome of what's killing the country- the infrastructure and the non rich are in ruins...
 
CEOs now making 400X as much as average worker, AND paying less in taxes. There's the epitome of what's killing the country- the infrastructure and the non rich are in ruins...

They are not paying less in taxes, that is a common liberal claim that is utterly false.
The bottom 53% pay ZERO income taxes...in fact have a negative tax liability.
 
CEOs now making 400X as much as average worker, AND paying less in taxes. There's the epitome of what's killing the country- the infrastructure and the non rich are in ruins...

They are not paying less in taxes, that is a common liberal claim that is utterly false.
The bottom 53% pay ZERO income taxes...in fact have a negative tax liability.

Wrong again- in the real world, the poorest 53% pay as much %wise in ALL taxes and fees as the richest. Gas tax, registrations, sales tax, fees fees fees, LOCAL income taxes and property taxes. Hell, payroll taxes bring in more than income tax now, for the first time EVER. You are misled.
 
CEOs now making 400X as much as average worker, AND paying less in taxes. There's the epitome of what's killing the country- the infrastructure and the non rich are in ruins...

They are not paying less in taxes, that is a common liberal claim that is utterly false.
The bottom 53% pay ZERO income taxes...in fact have a negative tax liability.

Wrong again- in the real world, the poorest 53% pay as much %wise in ALL taxes and fees as the richest. Gas tax, registrations, sales tax, fees fees fees, LOCAL income taxes and property taxes. Hell, payroll taxes bring in more than income tax now, for the first time EVER. You are misled.

I am not misled - I can add and I have more than one eye open.
Of course sales tax for instance is more of a % of income for someone making $20,000 than a $millionaire - duh. But it is entirely irrelevant as sales tax, excise tax, property tax etc. are all LOCAL taxes and not federal.
 
Still trying to brainwash people into supporting his ways i see......

Who needs his stupid ass?? HE ONLY WANTS TO DESTROY THIS COUNTRY,if that isnt painfully apparent,I DONT KNOW WHAT IS!!

Actually, he's appealing to people to THINK, a message which obviously went 'whoosh!' on your ass.

Actually, he appeals to lazy nanny-staters who think that the world owes them a living.

Fuck the whole lot of 'em.... including Obama.
 

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