Israel 'cuts Palestinian water'

[Coyote]

Lying. Dissembling. Casting blame.
Is this really the best you can do? Can you really not think past headlines?

Well, if you're incapable of debating the points - just come out and say it. Don't waste bandwidth pretending.

There are no points to debate. There are no facts adduced. There is rumor and hearsay and propaganda along the lines of those innocent Palestinians and those mean Israelis. That isn't a debate.

Um...no. There were facts presented. Just because you choose not to believe them doesn't make them any less factual, and if your only rebuttal is from a Pro-Israeli political action committee then you really don't have much to argue with.

The truth is that Palestinians are the ******* of the middle east. The other Arabs hate them but find them politically useful for beating up Israel. They cause crime and instability any place they settle. This is why Arafat ended up in Tunis after the Israelis ejected him. Arab countries could have solved the refugee problem decades ago but found them too politically expedient.

I don't disagree totally with that - but if you are suggesting the Arabs countries should have taken them in - why? Their homes are in Israel. Why should they be forced out? More to the point - it's totally irrelevant to the situation now. They are living breathing people - men, women, children, families - what ever you may personally think of them they are every bit as human as the Jews that perished in the holocaust.

The PA has received more money per capita in aid from Europe, the US, and Arab countries than any other entity. And the average Palestinian living there is worse off. No country has more corruption than the PA.

True. Corruption is a HUGE problem but it isn't the only reason the average Palestinian is worse off. Part of the blame has to do with Israel's systematic destruction of their economy and infrastructure.

When elections were held the Palestinians elected Hamas, whose operatives took out Fatah workers and machine gunned them in the street. How do you negotiate with an entity like that?

Why do you suppose they elected Hamas? I'll give you a short answer - corruption. Fatah failed to get anything done in terms of services and infrastructure. Maybe Hamas could. Desperate people.

 

[The Rabbi]

If I write that the U.S. has engaged in atrocities in New Orleans against the Black population, is that a fact? If I present a web site that quotes people saying that, does it make it a fact?
Answer: No.
So no facts have been presented.

Israel has destroyed infrastructure exactly as a result of Palestinian terrorist activity. Israel also gives the Palestinians money.
Excusing poor decisions because people are "desperate" is a losing argument. Based on that Germans were right to embrace Hitler and Russians to embrace Communism.

 

[Coyote]

If I write that the U.S. has engaged in atrocities in New Orleans against the Black population, is that a fact? If I present a web site that quotes people saying that, does it make it a fact?
Answer: No.
So no facts have been presented.

Israel has destroyed infrastructure exactly as a result of Palestinian terrorist activity. Israel also gives the Palestinians money.

Is that a "fact"?

To use your logic: No.

So they give them money. Whoop de do. Does that make up for everything else?

The situation as it is now, is little different than apartheid in South Africa.

Excusing poor decisions because people are "desperate" is a losing argument. Based on that Germans were right to embrace Hitler and Russians to embrace Communism.

No, it's not a losing argument. When people have nothing left to lose they'll do anything - whether it's right or wrong, it is better then the current situation.

Blaming it all on the Palestinians is a weak argument.

 

[Varth Dader]

They cause crime and instability any place they settle.

Really? It seems that 67000 of the settled in the US and they don't seem to cause crime or instability

 

[The Rabbi]

If I write that the U.S. has engaged in atrocities in New Orleans against the Black population, is that a fact? If I present a web site that quotes people saying that, does it make it a fact?
Answer: No.
So no facts have been presented.

Israel has destroyed infrastructure exactly as a result of Palestinian terrorist activity. Israel also gives the Palestinians money.

Is that a "fact"?

To use your logic: No.

So they give them money. Whoop de do. Does that make up for everything else?

The situation as it is now, is little different than apartheid in South Africa.

Excusing poor decisions because people are "desperate" is a losing argument. Based on that Germans were right to embrace Hitler and Russians to embrace Communism.

No, it's not a losing argument. When people have nothing left to lose they'll do anything - whether it's right or wrong, it is better then the current situation.

Blaming it all on the Palestinians is a weak argument.

Actually it is a fact. Get over it.
Palestinians have nothing because they have consistently supported demagogues who have stolen from them and virtually enslaved them. Meanwhile moderate voices among Palestinians have been murdered by the more radical or forced into exile.
You are engaging in typical liberal excuses for poor behavior instead of putting responsibility where it belongs.
The situation is nothing like apartheid. Did Blacks under apartheid have the right to vote? No. Did they have the right to form political parties? No. Did they sit in the legislature? No.
The apartheid smear is more left wing sound biting.

 

[Coyote]

They cause crime and instability any place they settle.

Really? It seems that 67000 of the settled in the US and they don't seem to cause crime or instability

Oops....there goes another myth

 

[Coyote]

If I write that the U.S. has engaged in atrocities in New Orleans against the Black population, is that a fact? If I present a web site that quotes people saying that, does it make it a fact?
Answer: No.
So no facts have been presented.

Israel has destroyed infrastructure exactly as a result of Palestinian terrorist activity. Israel also gives the Palestinians money.

Is that a "fact"?

To use your logic: No.

So they give them money. Whoop de do. Does that make up for everything else?

The situation as it is now, is little different than apartheid in South Africa.

Excusing poor decisions because people are "desperate" is a losing argument. Based on that Germans were right to embrace Hitler and Russians to embrace Communism.

No, it's not a losing argument. When people have nothing left to lose they'll do anything - whether it's right or wrong, it is better then the current situation.

Blaming it all on the Palestinians is a weak argument.

Actually it is a fact. Get over it.

It's a fact because....you say so? Israel says so?

Palestinians have nothing because they have consistently supported demagogues who have stolen from them and virtually enslaved them.

....and bulldozed their homes, destroyed their economy, stolen their land through "settlement" building....oh wait, those aren't demogogues....or....are they?

Meanwhile moderate voices among Palestinians have been murdered by the more radical or forced into exile.
You are engaging in typical liberal excuses for poor behavior instead of putting responsibility where it belongs.

I won't say you are engaging in typical conservative apologetics for Israel because I have heard better arguments from conservatives. But after a while - apologies and cries of anti-semitism wear thin and the world is beginning to see that with the Palestinian situation.

Despite your best efforts at propaganda - and attempts to make it seem one-sided, it isn't. The situation as it is is the fault of MANY parties - but laying blame solves nothing. These are people, not vermin - and they have the same rights to live as Israeli's including water rights to what is under their feet.

The situation is nothing like apartheid. Did Blacks under apartheid have the right to vote? No. Did they have the right to form political parties? No. Did they sit in the legislature? No.
The apartheid smear is more left wing sound biting.

This is a good question. Is it like apartheid.

The right to vote. Under Apartheid, blacks could vote in their set aside "homelands" and they could form political parties. The Palestinians in their "homelands" Gaza and West Bank have those same rights. But when an outside country can control entrance and exit of people and goods and commerce and medical supplies and food and power....and water then it's safe to say that autonomy is an illusion and power over them really rests in Israel. If you think this is an erroneous conclusion - can you name me any other autonomous country where all those things are controled by a hostile foreign entity? Can the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank vote in Israeli elections? Sit in the legislature? No.

Then, lets look at the lives of Palestinians within Israel.

Do they face discrimmination in Israel?

 

[The Rabbi]

They cause crime and instability any place they settle.

Really? It seems that 67000 of the settled in the US and they don't seem to cause crime or instability

Oops....there goes another myth

Facts are pesky things:
Black September in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Rabbi]

Is that a "fact"?

To use your logic: No.

So they give them money. Whoop de do. Does that make up for everything else?

The situation as it is now, is little different than apartheid in South Africa.



No, it's not a losing argument. When people have nothing left to lose they'll do anything - whether it's right or wrong, it is better then the current situation.

Blaming it all on the Palestinians is a weak argument.

Actually it is a fact. Get over it.

It's a fact because....you say so? Israel says so?



....and bulldozed their homes, destroyed their economy, stolen their land through "settlement" building....oh wait, those aren't demogogues....or....are they?

Meanwhile moderate voices among Palestinians have been murdered by the more radical or forced into exile.
You are engaging in typical liberal excuses for poor behavior instead of putting responsibility where it belongs.

I won't say you are engaging in typical conservative apologetics for Israel because I have heard better arguments from conservatives. But after a while - apologies and cries of anti-semitism wear thin and the world is beginning to see that with the Palestinian situation.

Despite your best efforts at propaganda - and attempts to make it seem one-sided, it isn't. The situation as it is is the fault of MANY parties - but laying blame solves nothing. These are people, not vermin - and they have the same rights to live as Israeli's including water rights to what is under their feet.

The situation is nothing like apartheid. Did Blacks under apartheid have the right to vote? No. Did they have the right to form political parties? No. Did they sit in the legislature? No.
The apartheid smear is more left wing sound biting.

This is a good question. Is it like apartheid.

The right to vote. Under Apartheid, blacks could vote in their set aside "homelands" and they could form political parties. The Palestinians in their "homelands" Gaza and West Bank have those same rights. But when an outside country can control entrance and exit of people and goods and commerce and medical supplies and food and power....and water then it's safe to say that autonomy is an illusion and power over them really rests in Israel. If you think this is an erroneous conclusion - can you name me any other autonomous country where all those things are controled by a hostile foreign entity? Can the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank vote in Israeli elections? Sit in the legislature? No.

Then, lets look at the lives of Palestinians within Israel.

Do they face discrimmination in Israel?

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.
The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Those places are not within Israel proper. In fact those places are now part of the PA. So they are citizens of the PA.
My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

 

[Coyote]

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.

Are you dumb or do you just not read very well? I was talking about the occupied territories.

I'm glad you admit that they despise the Palestinians. I guess that explains why they are treated like "*******" by the Israelis. Yes they can vote. Yes they can elect members. Yes they are exempt from military service. But guess what - in order to get any sort of well paying job you have to have had military service.

The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Those places are not within Israel proper. In fact those places are now part of the PA. So they are citizens of the PA.

Sounds good doesn't it? But they are subject to rules and laws of the Israeli government. So much for "autonomy" - it exists pretty much on paper only.

My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

Actually, no. Your points are met with my points and some specific examples. I won't bother with sourcing them because you are unlikely to accept any source that contradicts your view.

 

[Varth Dader]

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.
The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Those places are not within Israel proper. In fact those places are now part of the PA. So they are citizens of the PA.
My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

How about those in Jerusalem? Are they Israeli citizens? Are they under Israeli or Palestinian control?

 

[Coyote]

A rather interesting editorial in Haaretz comparing the Palestinians with Tibet:

The Palestinians are not as nice as the Tibetans in the eyes of the world. But the Palestinian people deserve exactly the same rights as the occupied Tibetan people, even if their leaders are less enchanting, they have no scarlet robes and their fight is more violent. There is absolutely no connection between rights and the means of protest, and from that perspective, there is no difference between a Tibetan and a Palestinian - they both deserve the exact same freedom.

Moreover, in the first years of the Israeli occupation, most Palestinians accepted it submissively, with practically no violence. What did they get as a result? Nothing. The world and Israel cloaked themselves in apathy and callousness. Only when planes started being hijacked in the 1970s did the world begin to notice that a Palestinian problem even existed. In contrast, the Tibetan struggle also was tainted with violence in the past, and it is reasonable to assume that violence will increase if the Tibetans do not attain their goal.

 

[The Rabbi]

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.
The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Those places are not within Israel proper. In fact those places are now part of the PA. So they are citizens of the PA.
My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

How about those in Jerusalem? Are they Israeli citizens? Are they under Israeli or Palestinian control?

Probably Israeli as the city is has been annexed by Israel since it is the capital.

 

[The Rabbi]

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.

Are you dumb or do you just not read very well? I was talking about the occupied territories.

I'm glad you admit that they despise the Palestinians. I guess that explains why they are treated like "*******" by the Israelis. Yes they can vote. Yes they can elect members. Yes they are exempt from military service. But guess what - in order to get any sort of well paying job you have to have had military service.

The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Those places are not within Israel proper. In fact those places are now part of the PA. So they are citizens of the PA.

Sounds good doesn't it? But they are subject to rules and laws of the Israeli government. So much for "autonomy" - it exists pretty much on paper only.

My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

Actually, no. Your points are met with my points and some specific examples. I won't bother with sourcing them because you are unlikely to accept any source that contradicts your view.

The "territories" are largely under the control of the PA. Those parts that aren't are still waiting final status.
Do you know who the Druze are? Probably not. And going to Wiki is no fair.
No one is treating the Palestinians as *******, except other palestinians and other arabs. Do you know what Kuwait did to the Palestinians living there after the Gulf War? I dont hear you complaining about that.
Your points are worthless. They are based on Palestinian propaganda and a desire to see everything through the eyes of an American with no experience anywhere else in the world. There are no facts you have brought here.

 

[Coyote]

More resemblences to Apartheid - double standards:

PB: All Israeli citizens, including Palestinians, have the right to vote in elections for members of the Knesset (parliament) and for the prime minister. But not all rights are citizenship rights. Other rights are defined as nationality rights, and are reserved for Jews only. If you are a Jew, you have exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, and many other things.

Many other special privileges are reserved for those who have served in the Israeli military. And military service is compulsory for all Jews (male and female), except for the ultra-Orthodox who get the same privileges as other Jews, but excludes Palestinians, who do not.

Over 80 percent of the land within Israel that was once owned by Palestinians has been confiscated. All told, 93 percent of Israel's land can only be leased or owned by Jews or Jewish agencies. Moreover, despite Israel's booming economy, Palestinian unemployment is skyrocketing--Adalah says it is about 40 percent. In 1996 twice as many Arab citizens (28.3 percent) as Jewish citizens (14.4 percent) lived below the poverty line. Less than five percent of government employees are Arab. And eighty percent of all student drop- outs are Arab.

There are also vast disparities between Arab towns and Jewish towns in government spending on schools, medical systems, roads and electricity, clean water, and social services.
Unlike any other country in the world, Israel does not define itself as a state of its residents, or even a state of its citizens, but as a state of all the Jews in the world.

Jews from anywhere in the world, like me, can travel to Israel, declare citizenship, and be granted all the privileges of being Jewish that are denied to Palestinians who have lived in the area for hundreds of years.

CL: Are Palestinians within Israel participating in the current uprising?

PB: The recent resistance has seen a whole new level of involvement in demonstrations by Palestinians inside the Green Line. They are protesting the discrimination they face in Israel as well as the occupation itself and Israeli brutality against Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza. Such protests are not completely without historical precedent; in 1976 there were a series of demonstrations on what became known as Land Day which protested continuing Israeli seizures of Palestinian land. Six Palestinian demonstrators, citizens of Israel, were killed by Israeli forces.

But this time there is a vast increase in the participation of Palestinians inside the Green Line. Their demonstrations have been met with the same brutal military tactics used against Palestinians in the West Bank. So, far 13 Israeli Palestinians have been killed.

These tactics are in sharp contrast to the methods used by Israeli authorities in response to demonstrations by Israeli Jews.

In 1982, for example, when there was an upsurge of Jewish protests against the Israeli war in Lebanon, one Israeli Jewish protester was killed and there was such an enormous outcry that people remember his name to this day--Emil Grunzweig.

But when a Palestinian is killed by Israeli military occupation forces, that is not considered news. We might hear a body count, but we never hear their names, who their parents or children are, what they did for a living.

On the West Bank and Gaza, as well as inside the Green Line, police randomly fired live ammunition into crowds of unarmed Arab demonstrators that were throwing stones. The racist double standard is everywhere. A mob of Israeli Jews even attacked the house of an Arab member of the Knesset, Azmi Bishara. But the police would not act against the rioters.

Unfortunately, the years of occupation have created, or have allowed to flourish, an incredibly racist vantage point among the majority of Israeli Jews. The majority of Israeli Jews are willing to accept the killing of Palestinians and collective punishment of the Palestinian population as justified state policy.

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh yeah. There's an unbiased source for you:

Taken from the Palestine Chronicle, 2 August 2001. Copyright, Colorlines Magazine , 2000. For fair use only.

Palestine Chronicle Honorary Editorial Board Members:

Dr. Hanan Ashrawi - Author and intellectual.

Prof. Noam Chomsky - MIT Professor of linguistics and world-renowned scholar.

Dr. Eyad El-Sarraj - Human Rights Activist and psychiatrist.

Dr. Mustafa Abdul-Shafi - Former President of Makassed Hospital, Palestine.

Mr. Khaled A. Al-Maeena - Editor-in-Chief of Arab News Daily, Saudi Arabia.

Dr. Ahmed Bouzid - President of Palestine Media Watch.

Prof. Robert Jensen - School of Journalism, University of Texas at Austin.

Dr Hanan Daoud Khalil Ashrawi (b. October 8, 1946) is a Palestinian legislator, activist, and scholar. She was a protégé and later colleague and close friend of Edward Said. Ashrawi was an important leader during the First Intifada, served as the official spokesperson for the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace process, and has been elected numerous times to the Palestinian Legislative Council. Ashrawi is a member of Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's Third Way party.[1]

Edward Said was of course the notorious Columbia professor whose biography was demonstrated to be completely fictitious.

Really. What's next? Articles from Stormfront demonstating that Jews control all the money and networks?

 

[Coyote]

Oh yeah. There's an unbiased source for you:

Taken from the Palestine Chronicle, 2 August 2001. Copyright, Colorlines Magazine , 2000. For fair use only.

Palestine Chronicle Honorary Editorial Board Members:

Dr. Hanan Ashrawi - Author and intellectual.

Prof. Noam Chomsky - MIT Professor of linguistics and world-renowned scholar.

Dr. Eyad El-Sarraj - Human Rights Activist and psychiatrist.

Dr. Mustafa Abdul-Shafi - Former President of Makassed Hospital, Palestine.

Mr. Khaled A. Al-Maeena - Editor-in-Chief of Arab News Daily, Saudi Arabia.

Dr. Ahmed Bouzid - President of Palestine Media Watch.

Prof. Robert Jensen - School of Journalism, University of Texas at Austin.

Dr Hanan Daoud Khalil Ashrawi (b. October 8, 1946) is a Palestinian legislator, activist, and scholar. She was a protégé and later colleague and close friend of Edward Said. Ashrawi was an important leader during the First Intifada, served as the official spokesperson for the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace process, and has been elected numerous times to the Palestinian Legislative Council. Ashrawi is a member of Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's Third Way party.[1]

Edward Said was of course the notorious Columbia professor whose biography was demonstrated to be completely fictitious.

Really. What's next? Articles from Stormfront demonstating that Jews control all the money and networks?

You're the one who seems to feel that an Israeli political action group is a factual and unbiased source...why on earth would you have a problem with my choice then?

 

[Varth Dader]

Oh yeah. There's an unbiased source for you:

Taken from the Palestine Chronicle, 2 August 2001. Copyright, Colorlines Magazine , 2000. For fair use only.

Palestine Chronicle Honorary Editorial Board Members:

Dr. Hanan Ashrawi - Author and intellectual.

Prof. Noam Chomsky - MIT Professor of linguistics and world-renowned scholar.

Dr. Eyad El-Sarraj - Human Rights Activist and psychiatrist.

Dr. Mustafa Abdul-Shafi - Former President of Makassed Hospital, Palestine.

Mr. Khaled A. Al-Maeena - Editor-in-Chief of Arab News Daily, Saudi Arabia.

Dr. Ahmed Bouzid - President of Palestine Media Watch.

Prof. Robert Jensen - School of Journalism, University of Texas at Austin.

Dr Hanan Daoud Khalil Ashrawi (b. October 8, 1946) is a Palestinian legislator, activist, and scholar. She was a protégé and later colleague and close friend of Edward Said. Ashrawi was an important leader during the First Intifada, served as the official spokesperson for the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace process, and has been elected numerous times to the Palestinian Legislative Council. Ashrawi is a member of Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's Third Way party.[1]

Edward Said was of course the notorious Columbia professor whose biography was demonstrated to be completely fictitious.

Really. What's next? Articles from Stormfront demonstating that Jews control all the money and networks?

Wow, you are comparing Hanan Ashrawi and Edward Said with people from Stormfront?

That's pretty low.

 

[Shogun]

are you kidding me?

 

[Coyote]

Are you dumb or merely hyper-partisan?
Palestinians living in Israel vote in Israeli elections. They elect members to the Knesset. They have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen, including the Druze (who like all other Arabs despise the Palestinians). They are exempt from military service.

Are you dumb or do you just not read very well? I was talking about the occupied territories.

I'm glad you admit that they despise the Palestinians. I guess that explains why they are treated like "*******" by the Israelis. Yes they can vote. Yes they can elect members. Yes they are exempt from military service. But guess what - in order to get any sort of well paying job you have to have had military service.



Sounds good doesn't it? But they are subject to rules and laws of the Israeli government. So much for "autonomy" - it exists pretty much on paper only.

My very good points are met with dismissal. You obviously cannot answer them except to deny they are true. But they are and your denial will not make it any less so.

Actually, no. Your points are met with my points and some specific examples. I won't bother with sourcing them because you are unlikely to accept any source that contradicts your view.

The "territories" are largely under the control of the PA. Those parts that aren't are still waiting final status.
Do you know who the Druze are? Probably not. And going to Wiki is no fair.

I do know who the Druze are. If you read anything I posted, I have actually mentioned them as one of the many minority groups in Israel, Lebonon, Jordan and several other middle eastern countries.

No one is treating the Palestinians as *******, except other palestinians and other arabs.

And the Israelis. They are clearly a second class of citizen there and there are multiple sources of information supporting this including those from Israel itself.

Do you know what Kuwait did to the Palestinians living there after the Gulf War? I dont hear you complaining about that.

Explain to me how that is pertinant to the long ongoing situation in the occupied territories or are you just trying to deflect the issue?

Your points are worthless. They are based on Palestinian propaganda and a desire to see everything through the eyes of an American with no experience anywhere else in the world. There are no facts you have brought here.

And yours are based on Israeli propaganda. So what are the facts? Some of the sources I've used in my arguments ARE Israeli.

Since you have no idea what my nationality is, nor my experiences in other parts of the world your last statement is null.