Israel 'cuts Palestinian water'

[The Rabbi]

Are you dumb or do you just not read very well? I was talking about the occupied territories.

I'm glad you admit that they despise the Palestinians. I guess that explains why they are treated like "*******" by the Israelis. Yes they can vote. Yes they can elect members. Yes they are exempt from military service. But guess what - in order to get any sort of well paying job you have to have had military service.



Sounds good doesn't it? But they are subject to rules and laws of the Israeli government. So much for "autonomy" - it exists pretty much on paper only.



Actually, no. Your points are met with my points and some specific examples. I won't bother with sourcing them because you are unlikely to accept any source that contradicts your view.

The "territories" are largely under the control of the PA. Those parts that aren't are still waiting final status.
Do you know who the Druze are? Probably not. And going to Wiki is no fair.

I do know who the Druze are. If you read anything I posted, I have actually mentioned them as one of the many minority groups in Israel, Lebonon, Jordan and several other middle eastern countries.



And the Israelis. They are clearly a second class of citizen there and there are multiple sources of information supporting this including those from Israel itself.

Do you know what Kuwait did to the Palestinians living there after the Gulf War? I dont hear you complaining about that.

Explain to me how that is pertinant to the long ongoing situation in the occupied territories or are you just trying to deflect the issue?

Your points are worthless. They are based on Palestinian propaganda and a desire to see everything through the eyes of an American with no experience anywhere else in the world. There are no facts you have brought here.

And yours are based on Israeli propaganda. So what are the facts? Some of the sources I've used in my arguments ARE Israeli.

Since you have no idea what my nationality is, nor my experiences in other parts of the world your last statement is null.

There is no need to. Your posts and outlook give it all away.
You have managed to post nothing but opinion. You have mangled facts to fit your preconceived notion that Israel is a great aggressor and the poor palestinians just innocents caught in the middle.
It is not so. Israel bulldozes houses because the owners were allowing them to be used for terrorist bases. Israel bombs civilians. It does so because Hamas and other terrorists use those civilians as shields to hide in. Israel assassinates Palestinians leaders. Those leaders were responsible for bus bombs that killed innocent women and children.
Look, how long would the uS tolerate Mexicans setting off bus bombs in NY or LA? Not past the first one.
The Palis have been offered their own state on the most generous terms. The bastard Arafat (he should rot in hell) turned it down. He had to. Without Israel the Palestinians would figure out that their own leaders were responsible for their misery. To this day Palestinian kids are taught that all their problems come from the Jews. Their textbooks all show this. Their goal is not peaceful coexistence but the destruction of the Jewish state. When faced with an enemy like that things are likely to get a little rough.
The Arabs living in Israel proper get all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizens. The ones outside of Israel aren't citizens. What rights do you give non-citizens? What rights do Palestinians have in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia?
And it is relevant. If you are going to condemn Israel you need to condemn the other Arab states for their treatment of the Palestinians. Not to do so, to ignore it willfully is to set a double standard. And that invites nasty questions as to why you have different standards.

It is funny. I am not a Zionist. I am actually somewhat anti zionist. But when I get on these boards and see the blatant anti-semitism, the one sidedness of it I am forced to defend Israel. There is no other way for anyone with more than 2 brain cells.
Fortunately the right wing in this country gets it.

 

[mdn2000]

Problem is people just dont know history, go back to the 1800's and the arabs were not the majority in Palestine.

Here is the dirty little secret, Arabs came to Palestine to live by the Jews because the cities and coutries they were born in were cesspools of filth and poverty. Arabs came to live with Jews to better there lives.

Why is it that after all these years and all the wars, wars in which the jews soundly defeated 4 and 5 arab nations, how is the jews can destroy the armies of the arabs yet they cannot simply get rid of the arabs, why is that, after all everyone knows that is what the jews want to do so how come the evil jews cant do it.

anyhow the arabs were not the majority people of palestine in the 1800's, the arabs fled the tyrants of the arab world so that they could live a better life with the jews.

The people know that, palestinians know that, its just you got maniac power hungry tyrants being funded by Wahabbi Sunnis, Wahabbi Sunnis are the racist, hell they still rape children and stone to death woman. So take the side of the Wahabbi Sunnis, they need fresh little girls for the harem.

 

[Varth Dader]

..
Israel bulldozes houses because the owners were allowing them to be used for terrorist bases.

And also because Palestinians don't have the right "permits", but we all know they don't give out those permits

Israel bombs civilians. It does so because Hamas and other terrorists use those civilians as shields to hide in. Israel assassinates Palestinians leaders. Those leaders were responsible for bus bombs that killed innocent women and children.

They also imprison "criminals", yet decide to release them in exchange for other prisoners, etc. It's funny how they always seem to have a supply of criminals to trade away.

Look, how long would the uS tolerate Mexicans setting off bus bombs in NY or LA? Not past the first one.
The Palis have been offered their own state on the most generous terms.

I love what you call "generosity". Hey, I will occupy California, and then "generously" agree to give it back, but I will retain controls over the border, the airspace, and just about every major highway in the state, plus tons of land that I used to put my people, and some more.

But hey, I'm being generous, because I could have kept even more.

Seriously, this isn't generosity. It was a lame deal which anyways they started to fix in the next round of negociations, negociations that went nowhere when Barak couldn't stay on.

The bastard Arafat (he should rot in hell) turned it down. He had to. Without Israel the Palestinians would figure out that their own leaders were responsible for their misery. To this day Palestinian kids are taught that all their problems come from the Jews. Their textbooks all show this. Their goal is not peaceful coexistence but the destruction of the Jewish state.

Score one for revisionism!

When faced with an enemy like that things are likely to get a little rough.
The Arabs living in Israel proper get all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizens.

That is factually (i.e., not in theory), not true. There is a crazy amount of discrimination going on, and lots of pro human rights groups in Israel report about that everyday.

The ones outside of Israel aren't citizens. What rights do you give non-citizens? What rights do Palestinians have in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia?
And it is relevant. If you are going to condemn Israel you need to condemn the other Arab states for their treatment of the Palestinians. Not to do so, to ignore it willfully is to set a double standard. And that invites nasty questions as to why you have different standards.

I don't have a problem with blaming every other state, except the worse situation in all of this is in Israel/Palestine

It is funny. I am not a Zionist. I am actually somewhat anti zionist. But when I get on these boards and see the blatant anti-semitism, the one sidedness of it I am forced to defend Israel. There is no other way for anyone with more than 2 brain cells.
Fortunately the right wing in this country gets it.

Anti-Israeli sentiments conflated with Anti-semitism? Score 2!

 

[Fatality]

well the palies have their own country now, they should have thier own infrastructure. too bad they choose instead to pursue a course of genocide and wasting all their money on war, when they could be building. I guess the palies dont care about themselves enough to make thier own lives better. There is no logical reason why Israel should make things pleasent for the palies who want nothing less than to push the Israelies into the sea.

 

[Varth Dader]

well the palies have their own country now, they should have thier own infrastructure. too bad they choose instead to pursue a course of genocide and wasting all their money on war, when they could be building. I guess the palies dont care about themselves enough to make thier own lives better. There is no logical reason why Israel should make things pleasent for the palies who want nothing less than to push the Israelies into the sea.

Palestinians have their own country now?

 

[Coyote]

There is no need to. Your posts and outlook give it all away.
You have managed to post nothing but opinion.

And thus far, that is all you've done as well - considerable opinion I might add backed by only one source: an Israeli political action group that is little more than propaganda.

What is interesting here is you are the one who actually sounds like a typical American. You buy right into the pro-Israeli propaganda without question - with even thinking there is more than one side to the issue.

You have mangled facts to fit your preconceived notion that Israel is a great aggressor and the poor palestinians just innocents caught in the middle.

Here again, you either don't bother to read, or you are lying or you are are so full assumptions about what you think I'm saying you can't be bothered to listen in which case debate is senseless because you are only answering the echos in your own mind.

I have never said Israel is the "great aggressor" or that the Palestinians are "innocents" - have I? I have said over and over that the problem is a complex one with wrong done on all sides through a long period of history. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be the one insisting that Israel does no wrong and making excuse after excuse.

Here are some facts - not opinions.

The Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education notes that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student...Israel's largest circulation newspaper, Yediot Ahronot, exposed a glaring example of discrimination in Lod, where the municipality refused to allow a three-year-old Arab child to register in a Jewish kindergarten.

Seperate but Unequal

* 48 of the 61 poorest towns in Israel are Arab towns.
* Although Arabs represent nearly 20 percent of Israel 's population, local Arab authorities have jurisdiction over only three percent of the land, leading to overcrowding and poverty;
* The 160,000 Negev Bedouin live in extreme poverty. Half live in 36 “unrecognized” villages and nine recently-recognized villages, which lack basic services, such as water, sewage, electricity, and health clinics.
* Arab schools receive half the budget, per capita, of Jewish schools, and Arab students have the highest dropout rates and lowest achievement levels in the country.
* Many Arab communities lacked bomb shelters and early warning systems to cope with rocket attacks during the recent war; 40 percent of the civilians killed were Arab Israelis.

Or: Most Arabs can't buy most homes in West Jerusalem - Non-Jewish foreigners cannot purchase apartments. This group includes Palestinians from the east of the city, who have Israeli identity cards but are residents rather than citizens of Israel.

Or do you discount all this as "opinion" because it doesn't match your own "opinions"? If that is the case, what do you consider a "fact"?

It is not so. Israel bulldozes houses because the owners were allowing them to be used for terrorist bases.

Propaganda or fact?

Israel bombs civilians. It does so because Hamas and other terrorists use those civilians as shields to hide in.

There is a lot of evidence to the contrary in the latest conflict in Gaza - too much, in fact, to be able to summarily dismiss as Palestinian propaganda. You should regard it is very disturbing - there are plenty in Israel who are disturbed at the direction that conflict took.

Israel assassinates Palestinians leaders. Those leaders were responsible for bus bombs that killed innocent women and children.
Look, how long would the uS tolerate Mexicans setting off bus bombs in NY or LA? Not past the first one.

Poor comparison - in fact there is no comparison since the historical, political and cultural aspects of Mexico/US have nothing in common with Israel/Palestinians.

And, just for a point of comparison - in the last ten years or so, how many Palestinian civilians have been killed? How many Israeli citizens? How has the press covered it? I bet you can easily find the names of the murdered Israelis .... does there exist any accounting of the murdered Palestinians?

The Palis have been offered their own state on the most generous terms. The bastard Arafat (he should rot in hell) turned it down. He had to. Without Israel the Palestinians would figure out that their own leaders were responsible for their misery.

In 1967. Over 50 years ago. So, do you continue to punish the Palestinians due to the stupidity of their leaders in 1967? 50 years have passed and the situation has changed dramatically in terms of poverty, segregation, inequality, and settlement building. It is THAT situation that needs to be addressed - not the situation of 50 years ago.

To this day Palestinian kids are taught that all their problems come from the Jews. Their textbooks all show this. Their goal is not peaceful coexistence but the destruction of the Jewish state. When faced with an enemy like that things are likely to get a little rough.

The Arabs living in Israel proper get all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizens. The ones outside of Israel aren't citizens. What rights do you give non-citizens? What rights do Palestinians have in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia?

I already pointed out that they don't exactly have the same rights and privileges of Jewish Israeli citizens.

Comparing rights with that of other countries is side stepping the issue - just because they are better than another doesn't mean it's right. To use an exagerated example - just because Iraqis had more rights under Saddam than North Koreans do under their dictator doesn't make Saddam a good thing.

What rights do you give non-citizens? You have a substantial population of stateless non-citizens who have no rights. Either you grant them a VIABLE state (not some sort apartheid style homeland) - or you make them citizens of Israel. The latter would be demographic suicide however. But something has to be done because Israel can not continue to claim itself a democracy while allowing the status quo of a large area who's population is effectively under it's control (water, power, commerce, etc) yet who's people have no real rights to self-determination, with sky rocketing unemployment and absolute poverty.

And it is relevant. If you are going to condemn Israel you need to condemn the other Arab states for their treatment of the Palestinians. Not to do so, to ignore it willfully is to set a double standard. And that invites nasty questions as to why you have different standards.

I don't buy into politically correct fairness tests. If we are discussing a situation where the treatment of the Palestinians by other Arab states has a bearing on it - I will give my opinion (feel free to start such a topic) - but I'm not going to preface every criticism of Israel with a "and the (insert arab country of choice) treat the Palestinians horribly.....blah blah blah" statement - it's irrelevant. The situation right now that is most incindiary and problematic in attempts create stability in the Middle East is that of the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza (the most densly populated and impoverished region on earth at the moment). Do the Arab countries have a role to play in this? Yes. And they have been attempting to carve out a peacefull solution through their own summits. Is it doing enough? I don't know.

It is funny. I am not a Zionist. I am actually somewhat anti zionist. But when I get on these boards and see the blatant anti-semitism, the one sidedness of it I am forced to defend Israel. There is no other way for anyone with more than 2 brain cells.
Fortunately the right wing in this country gets it.

Well, it's funny too. I'm not anti-Israel - yet any time a person attempts to criticize Israel's policies they get labeled "anti-semitic". Israel is a political state and as open to criticism as any other.