If God doesn't exist...

[Damaged Eagle]

And yet the 2nd law of thermodynamics still precludes an infinite universe with usable energy.

Do you believe 100% in thermodynamic science? Why is it you doubt all other sciences but you put all your eggs in the thermodynamic basket?

"The state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time." Who says? Who says it won't slow down or stop eventually? Is that a fact or scientific consensus?

I'm pretty sure I have forgotten more science then you will ever know. So your I don't believe in science argument rings a little hollow. I've been a practicing engineer for over 30 years. What exactly have you done which makes you an expert on science?

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

 

[sealybobo]

That's not quite it.

Suffering (all 3 types) are caused by ignorance of self grasping. Self grasping is the misconception that the 'I' exists inherently. From this misconception arises the misconception of all phenomena as existing inherently.

That's the root - the start of all suffering.

Order from chaos is more than suffering. Sure suffering is part of it. Do you believe that good can come from bad? Do you believe that lessons can come from mistakes? Do you believe that excellence can come from competition? Those are part of it too.

I was just commenting on suffering - putting a more accurate point on it.

As to your explanation: it still begs the question why create a universe where the beings you created suffer? Just so they can struggle OUT of suffering? So they can become better people? That's absurd. That doesn't make any sense. Create better people. Create a universe where people already don't suffer. Create one where everyone is happy. Done and done.

Do they only suffer?

Yes, but let's not get side tracked. Even if only sometimes people suffer. Why create such a world where there is any suffering.

I'm not changing the subject. I don't accept that people don't have joy. No one suffers all of the time. The better off we have it the more skewed our perception becomes.

Assigning acts of men to God is ridiculous. His Ways are not our ways. To suppose that there can be no God unless everything is perfect is illogical. The answer to your question is that it is not virtuous if you are made to behave virtuous. It seems to me that the crop He is growing is virtue. How do I know? Because like all stages of matter before it, consciousness and conscienceness are evolving. Subatomic particles evolved to hydrogen and helium, hydrogen and helium evolved to cosmic structure, cosmic structure evolved to all the elements and compound we see today, nonliving matter evolved to living matter and living matter evolved to beings that know and create. The final leap to be made is consciousness / conscienceness.

Furthermore, He uses everything for our good. Good does come from bad and bad does come from good. Hardship can build character. There has never been an uncaused event. Everything is cause and effect. Goodness does rise from hardship. People do overcome adversity and actually grow from it.

Since everything on earth comes from inside a star including us, a a star has a heartbeat and controls everything in our solar system, it's no wonder our ancestors worshipped the sun. Could the sun's be intelligent? Could god be staring us right in the face? We're our ancestors right to pray every night that the sun would return?

But a guy dying out in the desert would curse the sun.

 

[ding]

Order from chaos is more than suffering. Sure suffering is part of it. Do you believe that good can come from bad? Do you believe that lessons can come from mistakes? Do you believe that excellence can come from competition? Those are part of it too.

I was just commenting on suffering - putting a more accurate point on it.

As to your explanation: it still begs the question why create a universe where the beings you created suffer? Just so they can struggle OUT of suffering? So they can become better people? That's absurd. That doesn't make any sense. Create better people. Create a universe where people already don't suffer. Create one where everyone is happy. Done and done.

Do they only suffer?

Yes, but let's not get side tracked. Even if only sometimes people suffer. Why create such a world where there is any suffering.

I'm not changing the subject. I don't accept that people don't have joy. No one suffers all of the time. The better off we have it the more skewed our perception becomes.

Assigning acts of men to God is ridiculous. His Ways are not our ways. To suppose that there can be no God unless everything is perfect is illogical. The answer to your question is that it is not virtuous if you are made to behave virtuous. It seems to me that the crop He is growing is virtue. How do I know? Because like all stages of matter before it, consciousness and conscienceness are evolving. Subatomic particles evolved to hydrogen and helium, hydrogen and helium evolved to cosmic structure, cosmic structure evolved to all the elements and compound we see today, nonliving matter evolved to living matter and living matter evolved to beings that know and create. The final leap to be made is consciousness / conscienceness.

Furthermore, He uses everything for our good. Good does come from bad and bad does come from good. Hardship can build character. There has never been an uncaused event. Everything is cause and effect. Goodness does rise from hardship. People do overcome adversity and actually grow from it.

Since everything on earth comes from inside a star including us, a a star has a heartbeat and controls everything in our solar system, it's no wonder our ancestors worshipped the sun. Could the sun's be intelligent? Could god be staring us right in the face? We're our ancestors right to pray every night that the sun would return?

But a guy dying out in the desert would curse the sun.

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

 

[ding]

Do you believe 100% in thermodynamic science? Why is it you doubt all other sciences but you put all your eggs in the thermodynamic basket?

"The state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time." Who says? Who says it won't slow down or stop eventually? Is that a fact or scientific consensus?

I'm pretty sure I have forgotten more science then you will ever know. So your I don't believe in science argument rings a little hollow. I've been a practicing engineer for over 30 years. What exactly have you done which makes you an expert on science?

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

One of the all time great songs.

 

[Brynmr]

I'm not changing the subject. I don't accept that people don't have joy. No one suffers all of the time.

That's irrelevant to my query.

The better off we have it the more skewed our perception becomes.

So everyone who's happy has skewed perceptions? That's utter nonsense.

Assigning acts of men to God is ridiculous. His Ways are not our ways. To suppose that there can be no God unless everything is perfect is illogical.

That wasn't my point. Did God create the universe and the beings who inhabit it or didn't he?

The answer to your question is that it is not virtuous if you are made to behave virtuous. It seems to me that the crop He is growing is virtue.

So we're like white mice put into a maze to see how hard or how long it takes for us to figure the way out. Given your explanation, I would question God's virtue.

Furthermore, He uses everything for our good.

After creating a dark world for us he tosses in a little sunshine. Yippee!

Goodness does rise from hardship. People do overcome adversity and actually grow from it.

200,000 years or overcoming adversity and little children are still having their heads chopped off. God must really be enjoying the show.


Let me ask you. What are people who go to Heaven going to do? Will they experience suffering? Will they have to struggle? No, they won't. So why not create a Heaven to begin with? You honestly believe those heavenly beings would be less worthy or less valuable than the ones who struggled to better themselves? Consider also the price. Many, according to Christianity, will fall to Hell for all time suffering terrible torment. Your God created a world where many of his creations go to Hell. Had I created a world, no one would go to Hell and no one would suffer. All would be happy and content. I would have done it for them, not my own glorification.

 

[ding]

I'm not changing the subject. I don't accept that people don't have joy. No one suffers all of the time.

That's irrelevant to my query.

The better off we have it the more skewed our perception becomes.

So everyone who's happy has skewed perceptions? That's utter nonsense.

Assigning acts of men to God is ridiculous. His Ways are not our ways. To suppose that there can be no God unless everything is perfect is illogical.

That wasn't my point. Did God create the universe and the beings who inhabit it or didn't he?

The answer to your question is that it is not virtuous if you are made to behave virtuous. It seems to me that the crop He is growing is virtue.

So we're like white mice put into a maze to see how hard or how long it takes for us to figure the way out. Given your explanation, I would question God's virtue.

Furthermore, He uses everything for our good.

After creating a dark world for us he tosses in a little sunshine. Yippee!

Goodness does rise from hardship. People do overcome adversity and actually grow from it.

200,000 years or overcoming adversity and little children are still having their heads chopped off. God must really be enjoying the show.


Let me ask you. What are people who go to Heaven going to do? Will they experience suffering? Will they have to struggle? No, they won't. So why not create a Heaven to begin with? You honestly believe those heavenly beings would be less worthy or less valuable than the ones who struggled to better themselves? Consider also the price. Many, according to Christianity, will fall to Hell for all time suffering terrible torment. Your God created a world where many of his creations go to Hell. Had I created a world, no one would go to Hell and no one would suffer. All would be happy and content. I would have done it for them, not my own glorification.

Believe as you wish. I have no preference for an outcome.

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe 100% in thermodynamic science? Why is it you doubt all other sciences but you put all your eggs in the thermodynamic basket?

"The state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time." Who says? Who says it won't slow down or stop eventually? Is that a fact or scientific consensus?

I'm pretty sure I have forgotten more science then you will ever know. So your I don't believe in science argument rings a little hollow. I've been a practicing engineer for over 30 years. What exactly have you done which makes you an expert on science?

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

 

[ding]

I'm pretty sure I have forgotten more science then you will ever know. So your I don't believe in science argument rings a little hollow. I've been a practicing engineer for over 30 years. What exactly have you done which makes you an expert on science?

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

Do you know where the code for the first cell came from?

 

[sealybobo]

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

Do you know where the code for the first cell came from?

No

 

[ding]

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

Do you know where the code for the first cell came from?

No

Me either. No one does.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

I'm pretty sure I have forgotten more science then you will ever know. So your I don't believe in science argument rings a little hollow. I've been a practicing engineer for over 30 years. What exactly have you done which makes you an expert on science?

I watched the Old and New Cosmos series 4 times each.

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

Separating my belief in God from science is pretty much impossible to do considering my beliefs.....

However it seems that the science you set all your faith in could only come up with a creation theology of it's own to replace your belief in God. After that you enter the realm of the metaphysical which becomes even more abstract and borders on the theological. So while you attempt to sacrifice all who believe in God at your great alter of science why don't you answer the OP's, who happens to be me BTW, opening question.

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[Brynmr]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

 

[ding]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

The last two links have nothing to do with your religion. Is the reason you wouldn't advise others who wanted to understand Buddhism to read, "The Budda on God," because he believed avoiding speculation of the supernatural was a major distraction and that is what you are doing? Maybe you could provide a link where he encouraged speculation on the supernatural. Could you do that?

 

[Brynmr]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

The last two links have nothing to do with your religion. Is the reason you wouldn't advise others who wanted to understand Buddhism to read, "The Budda on God," because he believed avoiding speculation of the supernatural was a major distraction and that is what you are doing? Maybe you could provide a link where he encouraged speculation on the supernatural. Could you do that?

No, nothing to do with the belief of a creator God. The info on Buddhism is misleading with factual errors.

 

[ding]

Did you study physics, astronomy, and math at college as your major?

*****CHUCKLE*****

My last reply was in reply to your post but it looks like I didn't address it to you.

I am interested in your scientific explanation of how land animals all first got started. Did they start out as babies or adults? How did the first get here?

Now I don't know how the first life on earth got started either but I accept evolution as the most probable explanation

No but it looks like you have it set in your mind that that's what I believe in.

I've already stated several times in this thread specifically what my beliefs are.

The thing is you can't disprove my belief that I see God around me every day.

******CHUCKLE******

I rest my case. No scientist can believe in creation because there's no scientific way. You would have to put science away and suspended all logic.

When I believed in generic God I believed be planted the life seed that turned into all life on earth. That would make more sense.

But that would mean we're just the smartest animal on this planet. Not the strongest, fastest, we don't live the longest, we can't stand the extreme temperatures like tardigrade.

The more you know, realize, understand the more a "God" or believing that belief matters seems less likely.

Be a good person with or without a God. You know what's right. I still have a conscience

Do you know where the code for the first cell came from?

No

 

[ding]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

The last two links have nothing to do with your religion. Is the reason you wouldn't advise others who wanted to understand Buddhism to read, "The Budda on God," because he believed avoiding speculation of the supernatural was a major distraction and that is what you are doing? Maybe you could provide a link where he encouraged speculation on the supernatural. Could you do that?

No, nothing to do with the belief of a creator God. The info on Buddhism is misleading with factual errors.

Ok, so what did Buddha say about speculation on the supernatural?

 

[Brynmr]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

The last two links have nothing to do with your religion. Is the reason you wouldn't advise others who wanted to understand Buddhism to read, "The Budda on God," because he believed avoiding speculation of the supernatural was a major distraction and that is what you are doing? Maybe you could provide a link where he encouraged speculation on the supernatural. Could you do that?

No, nothing to do with the belief of a creator God. The info on Buddhism is misleading with factual errors.

Ok, so what did Buddha say about speculation on the supernatural?

To my knowledge the Buddha never said anything about a creator God.

 

[ding]

The Buddha on God

[1506.04952] The ultimate tactics of self-referential systems

Your Brain Is the Universe -- Part 1 | The Huffington Post

I wouldn't advise anyone who wanted to understand Buddhism to read these links.

The last two links have nothing to do with your religion. Is the reason you wouldn't advise others who wanted to understand Buddhism to read, "The Budda on God," because he believed avoiding speculation of the supernatural was a major distraction and that is what you are doing? Maybe you could provide a link where he encouraged speculation on the supernatural. Could you do that?

No, nothing to do with the belief of a creator God. The info on Buddhism is misleading with factual errors.

Ok, so what did Buddha say about speculation on the supernatural?

To my knowledge the Buddha never said anything about a creator God.

Why did you change the question? Did Buddha encourage speculation on the supernatural?

 

[Brynmr]

Why did you change the question? Did Buddha encourage speculation on the supernatural?

I thought that was what you were asking. What's your point?

 

[there4eyeM]

Did 'God' create humans so they could invent 'Him'?