Controversial Topic

[The Rabbi]

OK, I'll take that as a No.
In fact Iran has been threatening Israel with nuclear annhilation since the Ayatollah Khomeini (he should rot in hell). This has been a consistent theme of the Iranian leadership, repeated just this week at the UN. In the face of that, and evidence Iran is pursuing a bomb, it makes perfect sense for Israel to guarantee its own security.
Do you think Israel has not been consulting the US? What planet do you live on?

Do you think that Netanyahu has cleared his speeches through the U.S. State Department?

Do you think he needs to? What other leader of a country does such a thing?

 

[The Rabbi]

So you're OK with suicide bombers blowing up women and children on city buses?
Wow, what a fucking piece of work.

Strawman.

Please feel free to explain how bulldozing Palestinian homes stops suicide bombers.

I'm fully in favor of IDF or Mossad collecting intel on these groups and eliminating them by any means they deem necessary. I have zero problems with good guys shooting bad guys.

What I'm not in favor of is Israel continuing to use these attacks an excuse to eliminate Palestinian neighborhoods and plant new Jewish settlements. I have some experience with violent neighborhoods. Engaging in strategies that exacerbate the conflict and aren't targeted towards the wrongdoers only creates more suicide bombers and violent criminals.

LOL. Driving through Watts doesnt really make you an expert on the ME. Sorry.
They bulldoze those houses because they were used by terrorists as cover. Or they belonged to the families of terrorists.
Notice that terrorist attacks went down after they started all this. Why give up a working program?

 

[The Rabbi]

We do not defend the middle east's only successful democracy at our peril, and at the peril of the world.

Why? What effects would it cause for the U.S. to force more compliance from Israel in exchange for aid dollars?

How much more compliance would you like to see? Perhaps total annexation?

 

[MisterBeale]

You're an anti-semitic idiot who's spent too much time memorizing the protocols of the elders of zion. Now, go picket a synagogue. The adults are talking.

See, this is what I am talking about. You have nothing constructive to say, you throw out Ad hominem attacks, and then make an unfounded accusations. Where have I ever made any remark that was anti-Semitic?

It seems to me, when people can't use logic and intelligence to counter the discussion points I pose, it is easier to regurgitate the talking points of the epistemological frame of reference that has been conditioned into you by the mainstream media. Has this come any closer to solving the middle east crisis issue over the past half century or has it only escalated the blood shed? If I were "anti-Semitic," would I then quote the wise words of a Jew to you, because you are being so completely obtuse in considering the prescient article I have referenced for you? Nah. . . blind bigotry and hatred are easier for you. You do not understand it is the majority of the people in Israel, both Jewish and Palestinian, that are of my concern. You care not one whit for the Palestinians, of this I am sure.


"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
~Albert Einstein

 

[Oldguy]

=The Rabbi;6064324]

They bulldoze those houses because they were used by terrorists as cover. Or they belonged to the families of terrorists.

Well...that's what they claim, anyhow.

It's sort of like from my war: If they're running, they're VC. So...make 'em run.

 

[catzmeow]

OK, I'll take that as a No.
In fact Iran has been threatening Israel with nuclear annhilation since the Ayatollah Khomeini (he should rot in hell). This has been a consistent theme of the Iranian leadership, repeated just this week at the UN. In the face of that, and evidence Iran is pursuing a bomb, it makes perfect sense for Israel to guarantee its own security.
Do you think Israel has not been consulting the US? What planet do you live on?

Do you think that Netanyahu has cleared his speeches through the U.S. State Department?

Do you think he needs to? What other leader of a country does such a thing?

What other country is as financially dependent on us as Israel? What other country would even remotely consider starting a war that will almost certainly involve us, against our consent?

 

[catzmeow]

So you're OK with suicide bombers blowing up women and children on city buses?
Wow, what a fucking piece of work.

Strawman.

Please feel free to explain how bulldozing Palestinian homes stops suicide bombers.

I'm fully in favor of IDF or Mossad collecting intel on these groups and eliminating them by any means they deem necessary. I have zero problems with good guys shooting bad guys.

What I'm not in favor of is Israel continuing to use these attacks an excuse to eliminate Palestinian neighborhoods and plant new Jewish settlements. I have some experience with violent neighborhoods. Engaging in strategies that exacerbate the conflict and aren't targeted towards the wrongdoers only creates more suicide bombers and violent criminals.

LOL. Driving through Watts doesnt really make you an expert on the ME. Sorry.
They bulldoze those houses because they were used by terrorists as cover. Or they belonged to the families of terrorists.
Notice that terrorist attacks went down after they started all this. Why give up a working program?

Citation needed.

 

[freedombecki]

...well controversial since it's coming from me. But just what does Israel do for the U.S.?

I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel.

If we weren't so dependent on ME oil we wouldn't need to be concerned with Israel other than in a humanitarian way.

When the shit hits the fan and it likley will in a few weeks and Obama tells us that we will act in conjunction with out allies, we know that our kids will be the bulk of those "allies".

If you say they provide intlleigence info, I'm pretty sure that we can get that on our own.

But sticking to the question.


What doies Israel do for us?

And remember, I'm merely playing Devil's' Advocate here so don't jump all over my ass...just answer the question please.

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

 

[catzmeow]

We do not defend the middle east's only successful democracy at our peril, and at the peril of the world.

Why? What effects would it cause for the U.S. to force more compliance from Israel in exchange for aid dollars?

How much more compliance would you like to see? Perhaps total annexation?

No more settlements.
Construction of the wall ceases immediately.
Lack of threatening rhetoric towards neighboring countries.
Working with American diplomatic efforts rather than going rogue.
Actual progress towards creation of a palestinian nation.

I don't think those are unreasonable requests, considering the amount of funding we provide to Israel annually. If Israel doesn't want to comply with those requests, Israel can stop cashing our checks.

Let me put it like this: Israel needs us more than we need Israel.

 

[catzmeow]

...well controversial since it's coming from me. But just what does Israel do for the U.S.?

I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel.

If we weren't so dependent on ME oil we wouldn't need to be concerned with Israel other than in a humanitarian way.

When the shit hits the fan and it likley will in a few weeks and Obama tells us that we will act in conjunction with out allies, we know that our kids will be the bulk of those "allies".

If you say they provide intlleigence info, I'm pretty sure that we can get that on our own.

But sticking to the question.


What doies Israel do for us?

And remember, I'm merely playing Devil's' Advocate here so don't jump all over my ass...just answer the question please.

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

 

[Sunni Man]

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

Israel did not exist during the time of the American Revolution.

True story..............

 

[Oldguy]

=Sunni Man;6064411]Israel did not exist during the time of the American Revolution.

True story..............

No, but Jews did. Your comment is sorta like saying there were no influential Arabs because there was no Saudi Arabia during the Revolution.

In any case, you cannot divorce Israel from the Jews.

 

[beretta304]

...well controversial since it's coming from me. But just what does Israel do for the U.S.?

I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel.

If we weren't so dependent on ME oil we wouldn't need to be concerned with Israel other than in a humanitarian way.

When the shit hits the fan and it likley will in a few weeks and Obama tells us that we will act in conjunction with out allies, we know that our kids will be the bulk of those "allies".

If you say they provide intlleigence info, I'm pretty sure that we can get that on our own.

But sticking to the question.


What doies Israel do for us?

And remember, I'm merely playing Devil's' Advocate here so don't jump all over my ass...just answer the question please.

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

 

[Katzndogz]

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

Israel did not exist during the time of the American Revolution.

True story..............

Israel did not exist as a nation, but Jews certainly did. We reject our friends at our peril. While Jews did help us, muslims warred against us and Thomas Jefferson had to put them back in the hole they crawled out of.

 

[freedombecki]

...well controversial since it's coming from me. But just what does Israel do for the U.S.?

I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel.

If we weren't so dependent on ME oil we wouldn't need to be concerned with Israel other than in a humanitarian way.

When the shit hits the fan and it likley will in a few weeks and Obama tells us that we will act in conjunction with out allies, we know that our kids will be the bulk of those "allies".

If you say they provide intlleigence info, I'm pretty sure that we can get that on our own.

But sticking to the question.


What doies Israel do for us?

And remember, I'm merely playing Devil's' Advocate here so don't jump all over my ass...just answer the question please.

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

You would be an indentured slave to England if it weren't for a Jew. Haym Salomon's entire fortune plus all his financial acumen changed YOUR life, enabling you to have First Amendment privileges including forgetting your friends if you push your selective Alzheimer's far enough, and you have.

 

[freedombecki]

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

Israel did not exist during the time of the American Revolution.

True story..............

It did so exist and does so now nominally.

 

[Katzndogz]

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

You pose some very good ideas. Following your line of reasoning, we certainly didn't need to intervene in Somalia, or in any part of Africa. When Clinton said that the world would never let Rwanda happen again, why did he say that? Shouldn't we let those natives kill one another? Why are we sending aid to Haiti in the first place, it's not like they will never get another hurricane? What's with this world fight against AIDS anyway? How much did we spend on Indonesia when they had a tsunami? It's not going to stop tsunamis.

Come to think of it, why doesn't Europe just cut ties to Greece, it's a basket case that the Greeks created themselves. Just let it go.

 

[freedombecki]

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

So you're declaring "turnabout is fair play" to be irrelevant in human affairs?

 

[catzmeow]

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

You would be an indentured slave to England if it weren't for a Jew. Haym Salomon's entire fortune plus all his financial acumen changed YOUR life, enabling you to have First Amendment privileges including forgetting your friends if you push your selective Alzheimer's far enough, and you have.

So, there's no current benefit to our aid to Israel?

 

[catzmeow]

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

So you're declaring "turnabout is fair play" to be irrelevant in human affairs?

Where is the fair play? A jewish guy helped us finance the Revolutionary War, so America is on the hook eternally to finance Israel doing whatever Israel wants to do?

That's not even rational.