Biden says US to carry out airdrops of aid into Gaza in coming days

[Coyote]

This is small tit-for-tat thinking. One side takes 2000, the other takes 30000. Uneasy pause. One side takes 1000, the other side takes 300. Uneasy pause. Rinse. Repeat. No end game. The cost keeps adding up.

No. It isn’t. Acknowledging the enormous civilian death toll in just a few short months is not “tit” or “tat”. Saying it is time to change strategies is not “tat”.

It's not about numbers, it's about achieving goals which will lead to a better future for everyone. Eliminating Hamas benefits everyone. The best we can do while accomplishing that goal is to minimize civilian harm to the extent possible.

The “how” of achieving goals can’t just ignored. I no longer believe they are really trying to minimize civilian harm (I’ve stated that before and given examples of what has been said could done differently).

The world should be mobilizing to assist Israel in its goal to eliminate Hamas, to facilitate humanitarian aid and eventually to rebuild Gaza for a future of peace and prosperity.

The whole world did, until Israel stopped listening to its partners and allys and took it for granted that the support would continue no matter what.

Facilitate humanitarian aid? Other countries, NGO’s, etc. have been attempting that. But aside from the obvious issues in distributing aid caused by the dangers of being in a combat zone and the breakdown of law and order, and the destruction of infrastructure such as roads, Israel itself seems to be inhibiting it as well. it.

 

[Shusha]

Hamas and the people of Gaza are two different things.

I used to believe that. Now, not so much.

 

[Coyote]

Hardly, the polls show Hamas's attack on Israel had overwhelming support from the Palestinians.

JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month.

Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, has ruled Gaza since splitting with the Palestinian Authority (PA) in 2007. The PA exercises limited governance in the West Bank.

The PCPSR found that, compared to pre-war polling, support for Hamas had risen in Gaza and more than tripled in the West Bank, which has seen the highest levels in violence in years, with repeated deadly clashes between Israeli troops and settlers and Palestinians.
Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

Why do you continue to post this lie about Hamas and the Palestinian people being separate entities? Clearly, Hamas' atrocities on Oct 7 have overwhelming support among the Palestinian people as does Hamas' pledge of war against Israel until Israel is destroyed.

Have you no shame at all?

December 14th. The date of the poll?

As of Tuesday 26 December, 29,124 Palestinians had been killed, the human rights organisation said. The majority of those killed in the Israeli air and artillery attacks on the Gaza Strip were civilians, including 11,422 children, 5,822 women, 481 health personnel, and 101 journalists.
Meanwhile, 56,122 Palestinians have been injured, with hundreds of them being critically wounded, said Euro-Med Monitor. This number includes thousands of victims who are still stuck under the rubble of buildings, while hundreds more remain uncounted, but are likely either trapped under rubble or injured in the streets.

Euro-Med Monitor estimates also indicate that there are more than 1.920 million displaced people in the Gaza Strip who remain without a safe shelter amid inhumane conditions.

According to the rights group, 65,600 housing units have been completely destroyed by the ongoing Israeli attacks, while 177,200 others have been partially damaged.
Don’t you think that might affect public opinion?

Getting accurate polling of Palestinian views can be notoriously difficult, this is just three months before Hamas attacked seems pretty in depth and was not conducted in the middle of a bombed out war zone.

Source of poll: Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

Its findings include:

• 40 percent of Gazans view Hamas negatively.
• 42 percent hope that "someday we can be friends with Israelis, since we are all human beings after all."
• 44 percent agree that "We should recognize that we will never defeat Israel and that fighting just makes things worse."
• 47 percent say the Abraham Accords have had a positive impact.
• 47 percent say "it would be better for us if we were part of Israel than in PA or Hamas ruled lands."
• 50 percent want Hamas to "stop calling for the destruction of Israel and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders."
• 50 percent agree that "If Saudi Arabia normalizes relations with Israel, [the] Palestinian leadership should also normalize relations and end the conflict."
• 52 percent view the Muslim Brotherhood negatively.
• 59 percent support "the Palestinian resumption of negotiations with Israel."
• 60 percent acknowledge that when they hear about developments in Syria, Yemen, and other places, "I feel that my situation is actually not bad."
• 61 percent wish more Israeli jobs were offered in Gaza and the West Bank.
• 62 percent want Hamas to preserve the cease-fire with Israel.
• 63 percent seek direct personal contacts and dialogue with Israelis.
• 67 percent believe that "Right now, the Palestinians should focus on practical matters like jobs, health care, education, and everyday stability, not on big political plans or resistance options."
• 72 percent agree that Palestinians should look more to Arab governments like Jordan or Egypt to "help improve our situation."
• 72 percent concur that "Hamas has been unable to improve the lives of Palestinians in Gaza."
• 76 percent want Arab governments to "take a more active role in Palestinian-Israeli peacemaking, offering incentives to both sides to take more moderate positions."
• 79 percent believe that "Right now, internal political and economic reform is more important for us than any foreign policy issue."
• 82 percent agree that "Palestinians should push harder to replace their own political leaders with more effective and less corrupt ones."
• 87 percent find that "Many people are more preoccupied with their personal lives than with politics."

An Arab Barometer survey of Gazans completed the day before Oct. 7 confirms these results, finding that Gazans were more likely to blame their material predicament on Hamas's leadership than on Israel's economic blockade. ...

Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.

Its pollsters concluded that, rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group's ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas's ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

 

[Coyote]

I used to believe that. Now, not so much.

Well…I used to believe the Israeli’s took care to minimize civilian casualties.

 

[Coyote]

Thank you for taking up the debate with Coyote, as I’ve lost patience with her. I will be following along.

I have no desire or need for patience from you.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No. It isn’t. Acknowledging the enormous civilian death toll in just a few short months is not “tit” or “tat”. Saying it is time to change strategies is not “tat”.



The “how” of achieving goals can’t just ignored. I no longer believe they are really trying to minimize civilian harm (I’ve stated that before and given examples of what has been said could done differently).




The whole world did, until Israel stopped listening to its partners and allys and took it for granted that the support would continue no matter what.

Facilitate humanitarian aid? Other countries, NGO’s, etc. have been attempting that. But aside from the obvious issues in distributing aid caused by the dangers of being in a combat zone and the breakdown of law and order, and the destruction of infrastructure such as roads, Israel itself seems to be inhibiting it as well. it.

Acknowledging the enormous civilian death toll in just a few short months is not “tit” or “tat”.

Enormous? Less than one dead Arab per Israeli bomb? It's like they're trying to miss.

 

[Shusha]

Well…I used to believe the Israeli’s took care to minimize civilian casualties.

What changed? In what concrete ways are Israeli actions DIFFERENT in this war? Or what new information have you learned? Because I am not seeing a change in Israeli action, though I am seeing a change in SCALE.

 

[Coyote]

What changed? In what concrete ways are Israeli actions DIFFERENT in this war? Or what new information have you learned? Because I am not seeing a change in Israeli action, though I am seeing a change in SCALE.

Their choices in ordinance, the unwillingness to switch to a more targeted approach, hitting civilian targets that either do not contain Hamas militants or where the civilian casualties far outweigh Hamas casualties, restricting/inhibiting aid, cutting off food and water.

What Israel has done in terms of allowing some aid in or attempting to reduce civilian casualties has been reluctant and due to extreme pressure from it’s allies .

So no. I no longer believe Israel has much concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians.

 

[rylah]

Is it moral to artificially prolong their suffering

with aid to Hamas and false hopes?

 

[Shusha]

Their choices in ordinance,

I disagree substantially with the information you present here.

Israel uses higher ordinance weapons for the purpose of destroying the tunnels. It is a marked change of goal from prior conflicts. Those "big" bombs are used in places where the civilian population has been evacuated. This is demonstrably true given the LOW number of civilian deaths to the total number of strikes (which is well over 50,000 now).

the unwillingness to switch to a more targeted approach,

House to house ground fighting isn't "targeted" enough? How much more targeted can you be in urban warfare?

hitting civilian targets that either do not contain Hamas militants or where the civilian casualties far outweigh Hamas casualties

I would be very curious to know how you have obtained this information, given that Israel is notoriously closed-mouth about their military objectives. I know, because I have looked. Is this just the word of the survivors? "Oh, no officer, my husband had NOTHING to do with Hamas. He's just a social worker for UNRWA. No tunnels in my house. Nope, never made supper for those red-headed hostages."

, restricting/inhibiting aid,

Israel has not restricted any aid, and has more capacity to inspect and send it on than either the provision of aid nor the distribution of aid can keep up with.

cutting off food

Israel closed the border immediately after the atrocity (actually while the atrocity was still on-going). It wasn't closed for long. Egypt also has a border with Gaza. Israel never attempted to deliberately prevent the people of Gaza from eating.

and water.

Israel supplies a miniscule amount of water to Gaza. (5%). It is under no obligation to continue to do so.

What Israel has done in terms of allowing some aid in or attempting to reduce civilian casualties has been reluctant and due to extreme pressure from it’s allies .

Disagree. Israel has done more to help an enemy in the time of war than I have seen in other conflicts.

So no. I no longer believe Israel has much concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians.

 

[Shusha]

The whole world did, until Israel stopped listening to its partners and allys and took it for granted that the support would continue no matter what.

The world should be mobilizing to provide assistance to Israel with dismantling Hamas and exposing all those who support extremist terrorism in order to ensure the atrocity of October 7 NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

What I mean by that is NOT that the world should urge a unilateral Israeli ceasefire; employ lawfare and make ridiculous claims at the ICJ; hamper Israel in it's military actions (within the confines of IHL); fund UNRWA; suggest building a seaport, or recognizing a two- (three-, four-) state solution as a prize for committing genocide on Jews, or any of the other silly things going on.

The world needs to get boots on the ground: providing aid, distributing aid, policing and providing crowd control, establishing safe and secure hospitals, pressuring Egypt to open the Rafah crossing to allow evacuation and getting the hostages HOME!

And rather than taking for granted that Israel's allies would support them, Israel was well aware that the world would turn away from "never again" and that Israel would be on its own. Trust me, that was a conversation in Israel on October 8. We are long past that.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

And... back to my comment about the goal of the conflict, rather than focusing on numbers ...

The best thing for everyone is for Hamas to be eliminated and for Gaza to reset and rebuild under a different ideology. The cycle of violence with ever increasing harm - on both sides - is far more damaging in the long run. The cycle of violence ends this year.

Hamas instigated the escalation, has been preparing for this escalation for years, even decades. They are entirely responsible for the outcome. We mean it. Never. EVER. Again.

 

[Lisa558]

I disagree substantially with the information you present here.

Israel uses higher ordinance weapons for the purpose of destroying the tunnels. It is a marked change of goal from prior conflicts. Those "big" bombs are used in places where the civilian population has been evacuated. This is demonstrably true given the LOW number of civilian deaths to the total number of strikes (which is well over 50,000 now).

House to house ground fighting isn't "targeted" enough? How much more targeted can you be in urban warfare?

I would be very curious to know how you have obtained this information, given that Israel is notoriously closed-mouth about their military objectives. I know, because I have looked. Is this just the word of the survivors? "Oh, no officer, my husband had NOTHING to do with Hamas. He's just a social worker for UNRWA. No tunnels in my house. Nope, never made supper for those red-headed hostages."

Israel has not restricted any aid, and has more capacity to inspect and send it on than either the provision of aid nor the distribution of aid can keep up with.

Israel closed the border immediately after the atrocity (actually while the atrocity was still on-going). It wasn't closed for long. Egypt also has a border with Gaza. Israel never attempted to deliberately prevent the people of Gaza from eating.

Israel supplies a miniscule amount of water to Gaza. (5%). It is under no obligation to continue to do so.

Disagree. Israel has done more to help an enemy in the time of war than I have seen in other conflicts.

I spoke to liberals within days of the Muslim terrorist attack, while Israel was still developing its military response, and they ALREADY took the Palestinians’ side.

 

[toomuchtime_]

December 14th. The date of the poll?

As of Tuesday 26 December, 29,124 Palestinians had been killed, the human rights organisation said. The majority of those killed in the Israeli air and artillery attacks on the Gaza Strip were civilians, including 11,422 children, 5,822 women, 481 health personnel, and 101 journalists.
Meanwhile, 56,122 Palestinians have been injured, with hundreds of them being critically wounded, said Euro-Med Monitor. This number includes thousands of victims who are still stuck under the rubble of buildings, while hundreds more remain uncounted, but are likely either trapped under rubble or injured in the streets.

Euro-Med Monitor estimates also indicate that there are more than 1.920 million displaced people in the Gaza Strip who remain without a safe shelter amid inhumane conditions.

According to the rights group, 65,600 housing units have been completely destroyed by the ongoing Israeli attacks, while 177,200 others have been partially damaged.
Don’t you think that might affect public opinion?

Getting accurate polling of Palestinian views can be notoriously difficult, this is just three months before Hamas attacked seems pretty in depth and was not conducted in the middle of a bombed out war zone.

Source of poll: Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

Its findings include:

• 40 percent of Gazans view Hamas negatively.
• 42 percent hope that "someday we can be friends with Israelis, since we are all human beings after all."
• 44 percent agree that "We should recognize that we will never defeat Israel and that fighting just makes things worse."
• 47 percent say the Abraham Accords have had a positive impact.
• 47 percent say "it would be better for us if we were part of Israel than in PA or Hamas ruled lands."
• 50 percent want Hamas to "stop calling for the destruction of Israel and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders."
• 50 percent agree that "If Saudi Arabia normalizes relations with Israel, [the] Palestinian leadership should also normalize relations and end the conflict."
• 52 percent view the Muslim Brotherhood negatively.
• 59 percent support "the Palestinian resumption of negotiations with Israel."
• 60 percent acknowledge that when they hear about developments in Syria, Yemen, and other places, "I feel that my situation is actually not bad."
• 61 percent wish more Israeli jobs were offered in Gaza and the West Bank.
• 62 percent want Hamas to preserve the cease-fire with Israel.
• 63 percent seek direct personal contacts and dialogue with Israelis.
• 67 percent believe that "Right now, the Palestinians should focus on practical matters like jobs, health care, education, and everyday stability, not on big political plans or resistance options."
• 72 percent agree that Palestinians should look more to Arab governments like Jordan or Egypt to "help improve our situation."
• 72 percent concur that "Hamas has been unable to improve the lives of Palestinians in Gaza."
• 76 percent want Arab governments to "take a more active role in Palestinian-Israeli peacemaking, offering incentives to both sides to take more moderate positions."
• 79 percent believe that "Right now, internal political and economic reform is more important for us than any foreign policy issue."
• 82 percent agree that "Palestinians should push harder to replace their own political leaders with more effective and less corrupt ones."
• 87 percent find that "Many people are more preoccupied with their personal lives than with politics."

An Arab Barometer survey of Gazans completed the day before Oct. 7 confirms these results, finding that Gazans were more likely to blame their material predicament on Hamas's leadership than on Israel's economic blockade. ...

Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.

Its pollsters concluded that, rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group's ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas's ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

Again, why continue to tell these lies? From your link: "According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move."

In other words, all the numbers you show are from July 2023, before the Oct 7 attack, and all the polls after the Oct 7 attack show overwhelming support from the Palestinian people for Hamas' atrocities. Your post does not address the post Oct 7, current, situation at all. However, even your source does not show Hamas was separate from the Palestinian population but a very popular part of the general population and had very high support for continuing the conflict until Israel is destroyed, which means forever.

 

[Coyote]

I disagree substantially with the information you present here.

Israel uses higher ordinance weapons for the purpose of destroying the tunnels. It is a marked change of goal from prior conflicts. Those "big" bombs are used in places where the civilian population has been evacuated. This is demonstrably true given the LOW number of civilian deaths to the total number of strikes (which is well over 50,000 now).

House to house ground fighting isn't "targeted" enough? How much more targeted can you be in urban warfare?

I would be very curious to know how you have obtained this information, given that Israel is notoriously closed-mouth about their military objectives. I know, because I have looked. Is this just the word of the survivors? "Oh, no officer, my husband had NOTHING to do with Hamas. He's just a social worker for UNRWA. No tunnels in my house. Nope, never made supper for those red-headed hostages."

Israel has not restricted any aid, and has more capacity to inspect and send it on than either the provision of aid nor the distribution of aid can keep up with.

Israel closed the border immediately after the atrocity (actually while the atrocity was still on-going). It wasn't closed for long. Egypt also has a border with Gaza. Israel never attempted to deliberately prevent the people of Gaza from eating.

Israel supplies a miniscule amount of water to Gaza. (5%). It is under no obligation to continue to do so.

Disagree. Israel has done more to help an enemy in the time of war than I have seen in other conflicts.

Twice I’ve typed a lengthy response to this and it disappeared before I could post it, I will have to come back to it.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

And... back to my comment about the goal of the conflict, rather than focusing on numbers ...

The best thing for everyone is for Hamas to be eliminated and for Gaza to reset and rebuild under a different ideology. The cycle of violence with ever increasing harm - on both sides - is far more damaging in the long run. The cycle of violence ends this year.

Hamas instigated the escalation, has been preparing for this escalation for years, even decades. They are entirely responsible for the outcome. We mean it. Never. EVER. Again.

I agree with what is in bold, but not with the level of destruction we are now seeing.

As far as ideology? Per the poll and article I posted, as of July, a significant number of Gazans wanted done with Hamas and more peaceful relations.

 

[Coyote]

Again, why continue to tell these lies? From your link: "According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move."

In other words, all the numbers you show are from July 2023, before the Oct 7 attack, and all the polls after the Oct 7 attack show overwhelming support from the Palestinian people for Hamas' atrocities. Your post does not address the post Oct 7, current, situation at all. However, even your source does not show Hamas was separate from the Palestinian population but a very popular part of the general population and had very high support for continuing the conflict until Israel is destroyed, which means forever.

Why do you say I am lying? I specifically stated in my post that the poll was three months before Hamas’ attack.

The poll you reference is in the middle of Gaza being bombed by Israel with soaring civilian casualties. Do you not think that influences opinion?

 

[Lisa558]

Nearly three in four Palestinians think the barbaric massacre against Jews on October 7th was the correct action to take.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why do you say I am lying?

The poll you reference is in the middle of Gaza being bombed by Israel with soaring civilian casualties. Do you not think that influences opinion?

If my Democrat government in Chicago started a war by slaughtering a bunch of civilians in Indiana, I'd probably be mad at the idiots in my government. Especially if they hid weapons in my house, built tunnels under the local hospital and then stole the food aid.

 

[Coyote]

If my Democrat government in Chicago started a war by slaughtering a bunch of civilians in Indiana, I'd probably be mad at the idiots in my government. Especially if they hid weapons in my house, built tunnels under the local hospital and then stole the food aid.

You would also be mad at those who bombed your home and killed your family, and destroyed your city in response.