Controversial Topic

[catzmeow]

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:



What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

You pose some very good ideas. Following your line of reasoning, we certainly didn't need to intervene in Somalia, or in any part of Africa. When Clinton said that the world would never let Rwanda happen again, why did he say that? Shouldn't we let those natives kill one another? Why are we sending aid to Haiti in the first place, it's not like they will never get another hurricane? What's with this world fight against AIDS anyway? How much did we spend on Indonesia when they had a tsunami? It's not going to stop tsunamis.

Come to think of it, why doesn't Europe just cut ties to Greece, it's a basket case that the Greeks created themselves. Just let it go.

What compelling human rights catastrophe is currently occurring in Israel that requires $115 billion in intervention?

 

[catzmeow]

Do you recall the Revolutionary War? Do you know how it was financed?

Haym Salomon, Jewish Immigrant who fled his death sentence in England, came to the United States and used his financial skills to finance the remainder of the Revolutionary War for General George Washington. He gave all he had and helped the Congress borrow money abroad with his multiple language skills as well as his financial acumen. Haym Salomon, American Patriot

Please do not forget your friends, America.

How many Americans need to die in the middle east before that debt is considered paid, Becki? What has Israel done for us lately?

Let me be clear: I am not anti-Israel. I just think the relationship should be mutually beneficial. I see the benefits to Israel; what are the benefits to the U.S.?

Here are the benefits to Israel:

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

What has $115 billion and all of the special treatment that Israel receives given us?

p.s. The report is very interesting.

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

I don't care if people lambaste me. Being right is it's own reward.

 

[catzmeow]

Israel did not exist as a nation, but Jews certainly did. We reject our friends at our peril. While Jews did help us, muslims warred against us and Thomas Jefferson had to put them back in the hole they crawled out of.

What peril would we be risking if we told Israel that the aid from us was dependent on their compliance with our foreign policy goals?

 

[beretta304]

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

So you're declaring "turnabout is fair play" to be irrelevant in human affairs?

Where is the fair play? A jewish guy helped us finance the Revolutionary War, so America is on the hook eternally to finance Israel doing whatever Israel wants to do?

That's not even rational.

I'm just letting everyone vent. Rest assured I'll never post another thread like this one. You throw a topic out there and the attacks get personal no matter how many times I repeat that I was doing it as a devil's advocate to generate some discussion since I'm sick of discussing the polls for the 1000th time and who is going to wn or not.

I said that I support Israel but not just blindy because they are an ally. I heard about one man who helped us a couple of hundred years ago so we are forever in debt to Israel for it. Then in that case I suppose I should support reparations (which I don't) as well even though slavery has been over for quite some time.

There's all these nice patriotic replies but I have yet to see a tangible explanation as to what we get that we wouldn't have "gotten" if we minded our own business. I hear protect Israel because that is what allies do. As Sunni Man would say, And?

We have plenty of so called European allies that are nowhere to be found after all that we did for them in 2 world wars. Where have they been the last 10 years with their token contributions. Britian aside naturally. They didn't blindly follow us.

Ah, beat yourselves up over it. I put it out there so I guess I should expect the ad hominem attacks.

Lesson learned...I did say controversial after all.

 

[Oldguy]

=beretta304;6064477]



I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

You'll have to ask Netanyahu that question. We DO have a line in the sand...it's just different from his.

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

The effects of a nuclear Iran go far beyond the highly unlikely transfer of nuclear weapons to the likes of Hizbollah. The so-called "suitcase" nuke is a technology even we don't seem to have. In any case, terrorist's would have to have the means of delivery for it mean anything and you can't fit a nuke onto a Katyusha rocket.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

Iran has had an on-going nuclear development program with Syria and North Korea for years. Remember the Israeli air raid on Syria during the Bush administration which quickly dropped from view? What do you think that was? Remember the train wreck in North Korea from which just about everyone but Syrian technician's were banned? It was nuclear. And, that train was coming out of China at the time, which is a whole 'nuther facet of this discussion.

The bottom line is that you can forget all the nuclear timelines posited by the US or Israel or anyone else. Tehran is STILL just a plane flight from Pyongyang or Beijing away from having nuclear weapons.

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you think that Netanyahu has cleared his speeches through the U.S. State Department?

Do you think he needs to? What other leader of a country does such a thing?

What other country is as financially dependent on us as Israel? What other country would even remotely consider starting a war that will almost certainly involve us, against our consent?

Israel is not financially dependent on us. All NATO countries are pledged in a mutual pact, so they can start wars that are against our consent.
Any other absurd objections?

 

[The Rabbi]

Why? What effects would it cause for the U.S. to force more compliance from Israel in exchange for aid dollars?

How much more compliance would you like to see? Perhaps total annexation?

No more settlements.
Construction of the wall ceases immediately.
Lack of threatening rhetoric towards neighboring countries.
Working with American diplomatic efforts rather than going rogue.
Actual progress towards creation of a palestinian nation.

I don't think those are unreasonable requests, considering the amount of funding we provide to Israel annually. If Israel doesn't want to comply with those requests, Israel can stop cashing our checks.

Let me put it like this: Israel needs us more than we need Israel.

What demands will you put on the Palestinians and the Arabs that support them?

 

[thanatos144]

We support Isreal y cause we said we would.....I am not a progressive OR a Jew hater and I think we should stick with the country that supports us in the Middle east and the ONLY one that pays back money we loan them......

 

[The Rabbi]

This time even I'm with you which is why I started the thread. Perhaps I didn't articulate my point well when I first posted it.

I'm not anti-Israel either. And I support helping them but I often wonder just what do we get as a benefit?

Some will say we "don't have to get a benefit."


We do the heavy lifting so to speak and they reap a far greater reward then we do.

Sure we can discsuss it in terms of morality and "doing the right thing". All nice phrases.

Getting rid of Saddam was doing the right the thing as well but does everyone agree it was worth it?

I keep hearing Israel can manage it alone. Then manage it! Why does the U.S. have to draw the line in the sand?

I also hear the argument abouit Iran getting a nuke. All true but is that in and of itself a good enough reason. I also heard the argument that if Iran gets one they could give it to terrorist.

Do you reallly thing that's the only way they can get one? Pakistan has nukes and they aren't exactly well protected.

There's a case to be made either way and that was my only intent with this thread. But naturally I am lambasted over it.

It comes with playing devil's advocate I suppose.

You pose some very good ideas. Following your line of reasoning, we certainly didn't need to intervene in Somalia, or in any part of Africa. When Clinton said that the world would never let Rwanda happen again, why did he say that? Shouldn't we let those natives kill one another? Why are we sending aid to Haiti in the first place, it's not like they will never get another hurricane? What's with this world fight against AIDS anyway? How much did we spend on Indonesia when they had a tsunami? It's not going to stop tsunamis.

Come to think of it, why doesn't Europe just cut ties to Greece, it's a basket case that the Greeks created themselves. Just let it go.

What compelling human rights catastrophe is currently occurring in Israel that requires $115 billion in intervention?

The 115B figure is basically false. It is about 1B a year or so. That is enough to fund the US government for about 20 minutes. So to us it isn't that much money. Far more money is spend on Islamic countries. Why are you not asking what benefit they give us to justify that kind of spending?

See, this is always the issue. When people complain about aid to Israel, they might have a point. But when they single Israel out to the exclusion of all other foreign aid, when they make absurd demands of Israel they would never make of other countries, I must assume a) They are factually challenged, or b) they have some kind of agenda. It might be both of course.

 

[Sunni Man]

Israel did not exist as a nation, but Jews certainly did. We reject our friends at our peril. While Jews did help us, muslims warred against us and Thomas Jefferson had to put them back in the hole they crawled out of.

He defeated one band of Barbary pirates from two small arab countries.

Hardly a global effort to eradicate muslims and put them in their place..

 

[catzmeow]

Israel is not financially dependent on us. All NATO countries are pledged in a mutual pact, so they can start wars that are against our consent.
Any other absurd objections?

We don't give other NATO countries the level of aid that we provide to Israel, and if Israel isn't financially dependent on us, then withdrawing aid is unlikely to topple the Israeli government.

Your strawmen have all been incinerated. Thanks for playing.

 

[catzmeow]

The 115B figure is basically false.

The figure was provided by the Congressional Budget Office. I'm sure anonymous internet dude is more credible.

The 115B figure is basically false. It is about 1B a year or so. That is enough to fund the US government for about 20 minutes. So to us it isn't that much money.

In your world, $115 billion may not be much, but in a country that is looking at a 1.6 trillion deficit, foreign aid definitely belongs on the chopping block, and should be subjected to a cost/benefit analysis. What has the $115 billion we've spent on Israel purchased us?

Far more money is spend on Islamic countries.

Fail. The top recipient of U.S. aid in FY2013 appropriations (FY2013 starts in October, 2012) is Israel ($3 billion).

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R42621.pdf

The next 3 countries include Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq, where we are currently at war or engaged in activities related to the war on terror.

Why does Israel require more aid than what we're spending in Afghanistan,Pakistan and Iraq? It's a civilized country with a high standard of living. We're not at war there. As you've stated above, Israel doesn't need our money.

So, why is Israel at the top of our aid list?

Why are you not asking what benefit they give us to justify that kind of spending?

I did. Above. I expressed the same concerns about aid to Egypt and Libya, and I would reiterate them for Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I seriously question the cost/benefit of the overwhelming majority of our foreign aid.

Apparently, in your zeal to build strawmen, you missed my actual posts.

 

[beretta304]

Israeli Lobbyist Blatantly Suggests a False Flag Event for War With Iran


Israeli Lobbyist Blatantly Suggests a False Flag Event for War With Iran by Chris Rossini

 

[The Rabbi]

Israel is not financially dependent on us. All NATO countries are pledged in a mutual pact, so they can start wars that are against our consent.
Any other absurd objections?

We don't give other NATO countries the level of aid that we provide to Israel, and if Israel isn't financially dependent on us, then withdrawing aid is unlikely to topple the Israeli government.

Your strawmen have all been incinerated. Thanks for playing.

Your answers are non-answers. I have answered your questions and you declare victory. That is not honest debate. Frankly I doubt you are capable of it.
Withdrawing aid will not topple the Israeli gov't. So what? Is that your idea, to topple the Israeli gov't?

 

[The Rabbi]

The 115B figure is basically false.

The figure was provided by the Congressional Budget Office. I'm sure anonymous internet dude is more credible.

The 115B figure is basically false. It is about 1B a year or so. That is enough to fund the US government for about 20 minutes. So to us it isn't that much money.

In your world, $115 billion may not be much, but in a country that is looking at a 1.6 trillion deficit, foreign aid definitely belongs on the chopping block, and should be subjected to a cost/benefit analysis. What has the $115 billion we've spent on Israel purchased us?

Far more money is spend on Islamic countries.

Fail. The top recipient of U.S. aid in FY2013 appropriations (FY2013 starts in October, 2012) is Israel ($3 billion).

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R42621.pdf

The next 3 countries include Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq, where we are currently at war or engaged in activities related to the war on terror.

Why does Israel require more aid than what we're spending in Afghanistan,Pakistan and Iraq? It's a civilized country with a high standard of living. We're not at war there. As you've stated above, Israel doesn't need our money.

So, why is Israel at the top of our aid list?

Why are you not asking what benefit they give us to justify that kind of spending?

I did. Above. I expressed the same concerns about aid to Egypt and Libya, and I would reiterate them for Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I seriously question the cost/benefit of the overwhelming majority of our foreign aid.

Apparently, in your zeal to build strawmen, you missed my actual posts.

I see Pakistan has exceeded Israel in foreign aid. Where is your outrage at providing so much money to an Islamic regime that hid bin Laden for so many years and has supported Islamic terrorism?
This is what marks anti-Israel/anti-Semitism: a double standard for other countries and for Israel. If you were against all foreign aid, we could debate it. But you aren't. You single out Israel, make absurd, ignorant declarations about it, ignore a good chunk of history, and then when called on it declare victory.

 

[catzmeow]

What demands will you put on the Palestinians and the Arabs that support them?

Are we currently providing aid to the palestinians? Which Arab countries are we giving aid to that is on par with what we are giving to Israel?

 

[catzmeow]

I see Pakistan has exceeded Israel in foreign aid. Where is your outrage at providing so much money to an Islamic regime that hid bin Laden for so many years and has supported Islamic terrorism?
This is what marks anti-Israel/anti-Semitism: a double standard for other countries and for Israel. If you were against all foreign aid, we could debate it. But you aren't. You single out Israel, make absurd, ignorant declarations about it, ignore a good chunk of history, and then when called on it declare victory.

You have a fairly arrogant tone considering that you've provided false information above.

I have plenty of outrage at Pakistan, but I also understand that in a sense, we are bribing them to allow military operations against Al Qaeda on their land, and we are using the money to gain their support in anti-terror activities. I personally question how well-spent that money has been, and I'd suggest that we cut back on aid funding for Pakistan, as well, in light of the failure of the Pakistani government to really comply with anti-Terror objectives.

What are we getting from Israel? You still haven't answered that question, even though it's been asked several times.

 

[kaz]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

Israel has continued to build settlements in disputed territory, bulldozing palestinian homes and businesses, and stirring up conflicts. The Israeli wall was constructed in such a way as to bisect traditionally palestinian areas, cutting off transportation and communication and access to shops and healthcare and other services. The Israelis continue to be resistant to establish palestine as a separate nation. The Israelis are currently threatening military action against Iran.

Those are all problematic. If Israel takes military action against Iran, how will the U.S. not become embroiled in that scenario, if only to keep it from boiling out of control, and that is likely to result in risking U.S. military personnel.

For the record, I'm not pro-Islam. I think it's the most backward ass religion that ever was created by a nutjob. Nor do I believe in Jewish controlled government or other anti-semitic bullshit. I just think that most Americans haven't really thought about this topic in any depth, and that these are legitimate questions that deserve to be asked.

None of those answered my question. My question was what US policy he opposes, not what Israeli policy.

 

[catzmeow]

None of those answered my question. My question was what US policy he opposes, not what Israeli policy.

I think she's asking whether our current policies towards Israel are working for us. I don't think Beretta has specifically mentioned that she's anti U.S. Israel policy.

Personally, I think that when we're providing 3 billion in aid annually, Israel ought to be a lot more compliant with U.S. interests (and I mentioned specifically what I'd like to see, above).

 

[kaz]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

Neither am I? But as to the lives part of it. It's going with the assumption that Israel will act and we will be involved. Now maybe no lives will be lost but they will be put at risk.
Didn't say I opposed anything. I merely threw out a question for discussion. As a Conservative, I think one can figure out where I personally will come down on the issue when the time comes.

OK, rather then "oppose" then what US policies towards Israel are you "questioning?" I'm not clear about that. One thing I oppose is foreign aid to Israel, but it isn't targeted towards them, I oppose all foreign aid from our government, I think aid should be given by individuals freely, not by money confiscated by politicians.

I oppose our military presence in in the middle east, but we're not there for Israel, we're there to secure oil supplies.

Not cooperating with them on intelligence would be to cut off our nose to spite our face. All it would do would be to cut down on our own intelligence and sharing ours with them costs us essentially nothing.

I support that we block the endless anti-semitic resolutions in the UN. Though I'd leave the UN and let them relocate to Paris if it were up to me. But as long as we're there...

I don't see how any of those policies are risking American lives though. Isreal's existence as you alluded to risks American lives, but I don't see that as a US policy.

I'm still not clear what the question is.