Controversial Topic

[beretta304]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

Neither am I? But as to the lives part of it. It's going with the assumption that Israel will act and we will be involved. Now maybe no lives will be lost but they will be put at risk.
Didn't say I opposed anything. I merely threw out a question for discussion. As a Conservative, I think one can figure out where I personally will come down on the issue when the time comes.

 

[Oldguy]

I would never suggest that we withdraw all support from Israel, or that Israel should be left in a position of vulnerability that will allow them to be crushed by hostile nations. On the flip side, our support should not be a blank check to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the outcome of those actions for us.

Our support hasn't always been a blank check. Just look at the very public disagreement we're having with Bibi right now over that "red line."

On the whole, I agree with your position. It's calm, it's reasonable, it's balanced and it addresses our own national interests.

It's far better than the usual "To hell with the Jews," or, "To hell with the Arabs," we usually hear. But, it's likely far too subtle for the demagogues and bigots to understand.

 

[catzmeow]

Just to add to the controversy...people on this forum are saying "fuck Egypt and Libya, after last week we should withdraw our support and stop sending them money!"
How is that different to when Israel pursues policies that stir up regional feelings against it and it's allies (specifically the US) such as annexing territory and building settlements?

Just askin'

For one thing, Israel has been in a negotiation process involving the U.S. for a period of years in regards to creating a separate palestinian state. And, they give lip service to their interest in doing so, and then turn around and bulldoze palestinian homes. That is not evidence of an actual commitment to trying to establish peace in the region.

In regards to Libya and Egypt, I don't see either of the governments of those countries acting in ways hostile to the U.S. at this point in time. The attack on the Libyan embassy, for instance, appears to have been the actions of an isolated group of people that has also been attacking their police and military personnel, and the libyan government and many of the libyan people disavowed that action.

But, if Libya and Egypt establish governments that actively act in ways that are hostile to the U.S., I agree that we should withdraw funding. Aid funding is a carrot to encourage compliance with our national goals, which in general, revolve around encouraging freedom and democracy and ultimately, peace and economic growth. If they don't want to engage peacefully and constructively with us, we should withdraw funds and embargo them.

 

[Oldguy]

Which is definitely not in the U.S. best interest.

An attack may not be in our national interests...right now,... but ensuring that Iran does not get nuclear weapons certainly is.

 

[The Rabbi]

Just to add to the controversy...people on this forum are saying "fuck Egypt and Libya, after last week we should withdraw our support and stop sending them money!"
How is that different to when Israel pursues policies that stir up regional feelings against it and it's allies (specifically the US) such as annexing territory and building settlements?

Just askin'

For one thing, Israel has been in a negotiation process involving the U.S. for a period of years in regards to creating a separate palestinian state. And, they give lip service to their interest in doing so, and then turn around and bulldoze palestinian homes. That is not evidence of an actual commitment to trying to establish peace in the region.

.

Do you think the PA's inability to control suicide bombers and attacks on Israeli civilians might enter the picture any?

 

[catzmeow]

Does it occur to you why Israel is threatening war with Iran? I mean, do you read the papers and stuff?

Does it occur to you that if Israel threatens war, they're planning on pulling us in to back them up? Given that is the case, Israel is a dependent, not an equal peer. So, no, they don't get to threaten war without actively consulting with us and presenting a united front on the subject.

If they want to posture like that, they can stop cashing checks.

 

[Oldguy]

For one thing, Israel has been in a negotiation process involving the U.S. for a period of years in regards to creating a separate palestinian state. And, they give lip service to their interest in doing so, and then turn around and bulldoze palestinian homes. That is not evidence of an actual commitment to trying to establish peace in the region.

Do they have a commitment from Fatah and Hamas to live peaceably side by side?

No. In the absence of that assurance, why should they work to build a Palestinian state?

 

[beretta304]

Does it occur to you why Israel is threatening war with Iran? I mean, do you read the papers and stuff?

Does it occur to you that if Israel threatens war, they're planning on pulling us in to back them up? Given that is the case, Israel is a dependent, not an equal peer. So, no, they don't get to threaten war without actively consulting with us and presenting a united front on the subject.

If they want to posture like that, they can stop cashing checks.

It's kind of what I was getting at. They decide and we end up following. which goes back to the original premise of the thread.

What's in it for us? More war that Israel forces us into by default?

Now Iran having a nuke at some point does change the dynamics. So where is the proof of that?

 

[Oldguy]

Does it occur to you that if Israel threatens war, they're planning on pulling us in to back them up? Given that is the case, Israel is a dependent, not an equal peer. So, no, they don't get to threaten war without actively consulting with us and presenting a united front on the subject.

If they want to posture like that, they can stop cashing checks.

They don't have to plan on it. It will just occur naturally because throughout the Middle East, Israel = America and America = Israel in their eyes. Any attack by Israel will immediately result in attacks upon our interests world-wide, attacks which we cannot ignore.

 

[idb]

Just to add to the controversy...people on this forum are saying "fuck Egypt and Libya, after last week we should withdraw our support and stop sending them money!"
How is that different to when Israel pursues policies that stir up regional feelings against it and it's allies (specifically the US) such as annexing territory and building settlements?

Just askin'

For one thing, Israel has been in a negotiation process involving the U.S. for a period of years in regards to creating a separate palestinian state. And, they give lip service to their interest in doing so, and then turn around and bulldoze palestinian homes. That is not evidence of an actual commitment to trying to establish peace in the region.

.

Do you think the PA's inability to control suicide bombers and attacks on Israeli civilians might enter the picture any?

So, how is Israel helping the PA to gain control?
Walling the place off won't provide a long term solution.
As unpalatable as it might seem in the short term, assisting the Palestinians in creating a viable state so that the citizens won't tolerate terrorists can be the only long lasting solution.
You can see an example of that in Libya.

 

[hazlnut]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

It's not a matter of whether we're content watching a slaughter. Actually some on the left would be okay with it.

Why do we always have to fight the world's battles? And please no, "because we are the strongest."

Their undying thanks does't bring back the lives of dead American youth/soldiers.

It's difficult to have this conversation with someone who lacks basic knowledge and understanding of world history, U.S. history, middle-east history... etc.

Without some basic understanding of concepts like bases and buffers, our foreign policy doctrines, how could we possibly explain this to you?

 

[AmericanFirst]

Morality requires a quid-pro-quo? We only do the right thing if someone is appropriately grateful and/or does something in return?

And this from the "values" right?

Did I not say that I am playing Devil's advocate? So you'll put your own son's or daughter's life on the line tomorrow for Israel? Bearing in mind that there is no 100% proof Iran has a nuke. Yes or no? Easy question.

It would be my son or daughter's own choice. Defending Israel is the right thing to do.

 

[beretta304]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

It's not a matter of whether we're content watching a slaughter. Actually some on the left would be okay with it.

Why do we always have to fight the world's battles? And please no, "because we are the strongest."

Their undying thanks does't bring back the lives of dead American youth/soldiers.

It's difficult to have this conversation with someone who lacks basic knowledge and understanding of world history, U.S. history, middle-east history... etc.

Without some basic understanding of concepts like bases and buffers, our foreign policy doctrines, how could we possibly explain this to you?

I guess you don't know what playing devil's advocate means. I am fully aware of what you are talking about. The last person I need a lecture from is you.

 

[Sunni Man]

Which is definitely not in the U.S. best interest.

An attack may not be in our national interests...right now,... but ensuring that Iran does not get nuclear weapons certainly is.

Besides the fact that Iran has no missile delivery system to attack the U.S.

Iran is a peaceful nation and has not attacked another country in over 300 years.

 

[beretta304]

Did I not say that I am playing Devil's advocate? So you'll put your own son's or daughter's life on the line tomorrow for Israel? Bearing in mind that there is no 100% proof Iran has a nuke. Yes or no? Easy question.

It would be my son or daughter's own choice. Defending Israel is the right thing to do.

That's not my quote. Nor is the one you attributed to Old guy. That's altering quotes. And neither is the one included here. Never said that. I have no son. You screwed up something. I suggest you fix it. The quotes are being attributed to the wrong posters. Completery reversed!

 

[Sunni Man]

It would be my son or daughter's own choice. Defending Israel is the right thing to do.

For Israel= Yes

For America = No

 

[AmericanFirst]

It would be my son or daughter's own choice. Defending Israel is the right thing to do.

For Israel= Yes

For America = No

For both. Defending Israel against satan and his minions, the muslims, is the right thing to do, considering satan loses in the end anyway.

 

[AmericanFirst]

It would be my son or daughter's own choice. Defending Israel is the right thing to do.

That's not my quote. Nor is the one you attributed to Old guy. That's altering quotes. And neither is the one included here. Never said that. I have no son. You screwed up something. I suggest you fix it. The quotes are being attributed to the wrong posters. Completery reversed!

I do not know how that happened but I will take credit for it. Sorry about that.

 

[catzmeow]

Just to add to the controversy...people on this forum are saying "fuck Egypt and Libya, after last week we should withdraw our support and stop sending them money!"
How is that different to when Israel pursues policies that stir up regional feelings against it and it's allies (specifically the US) such as annexing territory and building settlements?

Just askin'

For one thing, Israel has been in a negotiation process involving the U.S. for a period of years in regards to creating a separate palestinian state. And, they give lip service to their interest in doing so, and then turn around and bulldoze palestinian homes. That is not evidence of an actual commitment to trying to establish peace in the region.

.

Do you think the PA's inability to control suicide bombers and attacks on Israeli civilians might enter the picture any?

I think that's a convenient excuse for Netanyahu to do something that builds his popularity with hardline conservatives.

"some dude in another city blew up a bus, so we're bulldozing your house and putting a Jewish apartment complex here." yeah, that makes total sense.

 

[catzmeow]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

It's not a matter of whether we're content watching a slaughter. Actually some on the left would be okay with it.

Why do we always have to fight the world's battles? And please no, "because we are the strongest."

Their undying thanks does't bring back the lives of dead American youth/soldiers.

It's difficult to have this conversation with someone who lacks basic knowledge and understanding of world history, U.S. history, middle-east history... etc.

Without some basic understanding of concepts like bases and buffers, our foreign policy doctrines, how could we possibly explain this to you?

Go suck some more dick, pretentious twat.