Controversial Topic

[catzmeow]

...well controversial since it's coming from me. But just what does Israel do for the U.S.?

I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel.

If we weren't so dependent on ME oil we wouldn't need to be concerned with Israel other than in a humanitarian way.

When the shit hits the fan and it likley will in a few weeks and Obama tells us that we will act in conjunction with out allies, we know that our kids will be the bulk of those "allies".

If you say they provide intlleigence info, I'm pretty sure that we can get that on our own.

But sticking to the question.


What doies Israel do for us?

And remember, I'm merely playing Devil's' Advocate here so don't jump all over my ass...just answer the question please.

I started having these thoughts a couple of years ago. When Bibi Netanyahu announces that Israel will be building thousand more settlements in a disputed part of Israel in the midst of a so-called peace process (November, 2010), it seems like Israel has gotten so used to hiding behind America's skirts that Netanyahu is like a bratty little kid who knows he can thumb his nose at the world, knowing that America will let him do whatever he wants.

I grasp that Israel is an ally, but why do we continue to allow an ally to whom we give billions in funding to do whatever the hell they want and continue to embroil us in their disputes?

I think American policy should be compliance with our goals, regardless of which country we're discussing, or withdrawal of our aid funding. So, if Egypt doesn't hold free and fair elections, we pull funds. If Israel builds new settlements that it agreed the previous year not to build, we pull funds.

It's completely counter-productive to give billions of dollars to a country so that the politicians in that country can utilize those funds to develop weapons that they can then turn around and use against our best interests.

In Israel's case, not only have we set up a situation where Netanyahu is essentially interfering in our current election (seriously, wtf?), but American weapons manufacturers continue to push support of Israel because a lot of the aid dollars that go to Israel are given with the caveat that they must be used to purchase weapons. The weapons manufacturers don't want that aid to stop, because if it did, it would dry up a significant revenue stream for them. So, we've created this entire system where politicians who go against Israel doing whatever the hell the current crop of politicians wants to do are punished on multiple levels...first, by the pro-Jewish lobby, but second, by the weapons contractors. And, don't think that second group isn't a significant lobbying force to be reckoned with.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Didn't say that we did but I did say that we may have to. Either way not what I asked. Maybe I should rehprase the question. Why should we potentially risk our youth's lives for Israel instead of what's in it for us?

Your statement "I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel. " implies that we have and/or will.

So you admit we haven't.

So what makes you think we will?

Keep diverting. Go with...we likely will. And if you want to keep playing games then don't bother replying. I said I was playing devil's advocate.

No one is diverting . You seem to think that we will have our soldiers fighting for Israel at some point. I simply asked what makes you think that will happen?

You're not very good at playing anything to be honest.

You should be prepared to answer all challenges in any position you take. Whether you agree with the position or not. Debating 101

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Didn't say that we did but I did say that we may have to. Either way not what I asked. Maybe I should rehprase the question. Why should we potentially risk our youth's lives for Israel instead of what's in it for us?

Your statement "I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel. " implies that we have and/or will.

So you admit we haven't.

So what makes you think we will?

P.S. Where did I ever say that we "did" risk their lives?

Read your own post, it was implied.

 

[catzmeow]

I think a better question would be why Israel should exist in the first place. It's not just about us and Israel and the larger issue should be addressed.

I can name one reason: The Holocaust. Jews have been despised and murdered by the train load all throughout history and there's no reason to expect people's attitudes toward the Jew's have changed. Heck, just look at their neighbors for confirmation of that!

After what happened to them during the Hitler years, why SHOULDN'T they have a place where they can be safe and defend themselves? The rest of the world has a moral obligation to ensure that another Holocaust doesn't happen. As the Jew's themselves say, "Never again."

For those who are unsure about the existence of Israel or question what they can do for us...a question: Would you REALLY be content to sit and watch the wholesale slaughter of Israeli's live on CNN? Make no mistake, that's exactly what would happen if we withdrew our support for the Jewish state.

Wow, godwinning already?

I would never suggest that we withdraw all support from Israel, or that Israel should be left in a position of vulnerability that will allow them to be crushed by hostile nations. On the flip side, our support should not be a blank check to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the outcome of those actions for us.

 

[beretta304]

Your statement "I'm not ant-Isreal but I am curious just why we need to risk our children's lives for Israel. " implies that we have and/or will.

So you admit we haven't.

So what makes you think we will?

P.S. Where did I ever say that we "did" risk their lives?

Read your own post, it was implied.

Forget it. I'll reply to those that want to stick to the original question.

I'm not going to split nonsensical hairs over what you assume that I implied.

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

 

[beretta304]

I think a better question would be why Israel should exist in the first place. It's not just about us and Israel and the larger issue should be addressed.

I can name one reason: The Holocaust. Jews have been despised and murdered by the train load all throughout history and there's no reason to expect people's attitudes toward the Jew's have changed. Heck, just look at their neighbors for confirmation of that!

After what happened to them during the Hitler years, why SHOULDN'T they have a place where they can be safe and defend themselves? The rest of the world has a moral obligation to ensure that another Holocaust doesn't happen. As the Jew's themselves say, "Never again."

For those who are unsure about the existence of Israel or question what they can do for us...a question: Would you REALLY be content to sit and watch the wholesale slaughter of Israeli's live on CNN? Make no mistake, that's exactly what would happen if we withdrew our support for the Jewish state.

Wow, godwinning already?

I would never suggest that we withdraw all support from Israel. On the flip side, our support should not be a blank check to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the outcome for us.

At least you get it. Why blind support for Israel. Ask a simple question...get a dozen convoluted answers. Then you tell them you're playing devil's advocate and they attack you anyway. But they don't answer the question. Jackasses.

 

[catzmeow]

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

I think we're both still somewhat democratic countries at this point (though it's becoming more questionable in some cases in Israel), and having a solid relationship gives us a tactical presence in the middle east. That's of value.

On the flip side, policy decisions made by Israel, particularly under the Netanyahu administration, have been extremely detrimental to U.S. interests in the middle east, have probably prolonged conflicts over there, and have given the rabid Islamic fundamentalists an axe to grind against us. That's not small, in terms of net ill effect.

What I would say is that we should maintain an alliance with Israel. In a sense, the Israelis are like the hardline conservatives who aren't Romney fans but will plug their noses and vote for him anyway, because what else can they do? I think we just need to recognize that in some ways, because of the two political influences in the U.S. (pro-Jewish lobby and weapons manufacturers), the balance of power has shifted, and Israel is now in the position of dictating U.S. policy in the region. And, that needs to stop. The Israelis are essentially a dependent. But, they've turned into the bratty kids running the household. We need to reassert our authority and insist that they act in our best interests, or pay the price.

 

[beretta304]

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

I think we're both still somewhat democratic countries at this point (though it's becoming more questionable in some cases in Israel), and having a solid relationship gives us a tactical presence in the middle east. That's of value.

On the flip side, policy decisions made by Israel, particularly under the Netanyahu administration, have been extremely detrimental to U.S. interests in the middle east, have probably prolonged conflicts over there, and have given the rabid Islamic fundamentalists an axe to grind against us. That's not small, in terms of net ill effect.

Great answer. Learn something people. Especailly you Lonestar_logic. The question can be replied to without personal attacks and innuendo.

 

[The Rabbi]

P.S. Where did I ever say that we "did" risk their lives?

Read your own post, it was implied.

Forget it. I'll reply to those that want to stick to the original question.

I'm not going to split nonsensical hairs over what you assume that I implied.

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

Thats the wrong question.
What was in it for the US sending troops to Serbia? To Somalia? To Haiti? U.S. policy tends to be to take the moral high ground and stand up for freedom and democracy, and against humanitarian abuses.

In fact Israel is a long standing ally. We have close cooperation in many areas and I strongly suspect almost all humint from the ME comes from Israeli sources. They get to test our weapons in actual combat.
As pointed out, no U.S.troops have died defending Israel in over 50 years.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

P.S. Where did I ever say that we "did" risk their lives?

Read your own post, it was implied.

Forget it. I'll reply to those that want to stick to the original question.

I'm not going to split nonsensical hairs over what you assume that I implied.

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

Your question is bullshit. Any logical person would see the value in having an ally like Israel in the middle east, a democratic society that share a lot of the same values as we do and a counter balance to the theocracies and dictatorships in the region.

Wake up and stop asking stupid ass questions.

And when you do ask stupid shit and follow it with "what if's" and theories. Be prepared to explain.

 

[Sunni Man]

The invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq during the second Gulf War.

Had more to do with neutering Israel's most feared enemy than protecting any perceived U.S. interests.

And now Israel want's the U.S. to back their attack on Iran.

Which is definitely not in the U.S. best interest.

Actually, the Israeli national anthem should be changed to, "Onward Christian Soldier".

 

[kaz]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

 

[catzmeow]

I think a better question would be why Israel should exist in the first place. It's not just about us and Israel and the larger issue should be addressed.

I can name one reason: The Holocaust. Jews have been despised and murdered by the train load all throughout history and there's no reason to expect people's attitudes toward the Jew's have changed. Heck, just look at their neighbors for confirmation of that!

After what happened to them during the Hitler years, why SHOULDN'T they have a place where they can be safe and defend themselves? The rest of the world has a moral obligation to ensure that another Holocaust doesn't happen. As the Jew's themselves say, "Never again."

For those who are unsure about the existence of Israel or question what they can do for us...a question: Would you REALLY be content to sit and watch the wholesale slaughter of Israeli's live on CNN? Make no mistake, that's exactly what would happen if we withdrew our support for the Jewish state.

Wow, godwinning already?

I would never suggest that we withdraw all support from Israel. On the flip side, our support should not be a blank check to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the outcome for us.

At least you get it. Why blind support for Israel. Ask a simple question...get a dozen convoluted answers. Then you tell them you're playing devil's advocate and they attack you anyway. But they don't answer the question. Jackasses.

It's weird how nonsensical some people can be on some subjects. I included a smartass comment in my original response to you, but then I thought...it's a question worthy of serious discussion by people who are actually willing to think objectively versus simply regurgitating prejudices and emotionalism.

 

[beretta304]

Read your own post, it was implied.

Forget it. I'll reply to those that want to stick to the original question.

I'm not going to split nonsensical hairs over what you assume that I implied.

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

Thats the wrong question.
What was in it for the US sending troops to Serbia? To Somalia? To Haiti? U.S. policy tends to be to take the moral high ground and stand up for freedom and democracy, and against humanitarian abuses.

In fact Israel is a long standing ally. We have close cooperation in many areas and I strongly suspect almost all humint from the ME comes from Israeli sources. They get to test our weapons in actual combat.
As pointed out, no U.S.troops have died defending Israel in over 50 years.

Another good reply. That's all I asked....Why and what?

 

[MisterBeale]

Nor should the antics of criminal Zionists be defended.

Basically, we cannot abandon those who are there now. For most Israelis who were born there, it is the only home they have ever known. The establishment of the state of Israel was based on a lie and it was wrong. The dream was a nightmare and a colonial white wash, just like the founding of America. It was based on the premise that you can take one nation of people, and displace another nation of people that are already living on a piece of land to create a new nation there. Well of course you are going to have conflict.

The natives that live in the Dakotas still want to have their own nation. LOOK IT UP. Doesn't anyone remember the Battle of little Big Horn and Custer's Last Stand? Sure, to us in the U.S., that is all ancient history, it's all been resolved, but to them out there, they that live in poverty and scarcity under the oppression of the BIA, it is a daily fight against oppression and apartheid. Hell, they would like their people's rights and sovereignty recognized by the UN just like the Palestinian Authority. Well, what do you think, think the US federal government would ever go for that?

Realistically, we can not do this. We have to all learn to live in peace. The only solution is a ONE STATE SOLUTION with equal rights for all. Unfortunately, the Lakota of the Siox nations on the reservation still want to keep to their old ways, so it still remains nearly impossible to have a one state solution. The ways of the western world are radically different to the communitarian ways of native style culture and governing. (That is a whole other thread.) But if the Palestinians agree to live in the government created by the Israelis, or they create of government together. . . . ah, now we come to the crux of the issue. . .

That fact of the matter is, the conservatives, (or should we say, fascist elements) of the Israeli government that have held the leash of the Mossad have had alternative motives for drawing in the US into a conflagration.

Israel Seeks War on Iran to keep Lid on 9/11
Israel Seeks War on Iran to keep Lid on 9/11 | Veterans Today

Almost every politically-aware person on the planet is puzzled by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu’s bizarre obsession with Iran. Netanyahu is risking his political career, his reputation, and Israel’s future by intervening in the US presidential elections. He is using all of Zionism’s considerable might – including organized crime assets like “Las Vegas Godfather” Sheldon Adelson – to force Obama to attack Iran; or, failing that, to make sure that Obama is defeated by the Zionist puppet Romney. There are even rumors of Israeli-sponsored assassination attempts on Obama.

Even the rabidly pro-Zionist (but relatively honest) Jewish Daily Forward editorialized:

It’s difficult to recall a time when an Israeli prime minister has inserted himself into a presidential election campaign in the way that Benjamin Netanyahu has. It’s even harder to recall a time when a trusted ally openly urged the American president to undertake a questionable, unpopular and highly risky war. We sure hope Netanyahu knows what he’s doing, because the stakes for him — and for the two nations he professes to care about the most — could not be higher.

Of course he doesn’t really believe such nonsense. Even hard-line Israeli strategists admit that Iran appears to be only developing nuclear expertise, not actual weapons, and that in their worst-case scenario, Israel could live with a nuclear-armed Iran. After all, Iran has not attacked another nation in centuries.

Since the “nuclear crisis” is a hoax (like alleged Iraqi WMD in 2003) then what is the real reason for Netanyahu’s Iran obsession? Is it the Iranian government’s support for anti-Zionist resistance groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and its calls for an end to Zionism through free and fair elections?

Perhaps. Iran’s open commitment to principled anti-Zionism represents the nearly unanimous position of the people of the Middle East, who have never accepted the genocidal Zionist entity as a legitimate state. Israel has been able to bully every other government in the region into shameful silence. The Islamic Republic of Iran will not be silenced. Leveling Iran with bombs would send a message to future Middle Eastern governments: Do not give a voice to your people’s resistance to Zionism, or else!

But while starting a war might punish Iran for its anti-Zionism, such a war would carry terrible risks for Israel. Even if all went well for Israel on the battlefield, the suffering of the people of Iran would probably shame the world into turning against Zionism even more sharply than the world turned against apartheid in the 1980s.

Netanyahu needs the 9/11-triggered 100-years-war on Islam to continue for the very good reason that if it does not, the State of Emergency still in place in the US will be lifted, and Americans, unencumbered by the National Security restrictions of wartime, will quickly learn what really happened on September 11th, 2001. That possibility poses a very real existential threat to Israel – and to Netanyahu.

As Alan Sabrosky, former Director of Strategic Studies at the US Army War College, told Press TV: “I have had long conversations over the past two weeks with contacts at the Army War College, at the Marine Corps Headquarters, and I have made it absolutely clear in both cases that it is 100 percent certain that 9/11 was a Mossad operation. Period. If Americans ever know that Israel did this, they are going to scrub them off the earth.” And even if Israel were “scrubbed off the earth” peacefully through a one-state solution, Netanyahu would certainly hang for his role in the 9/11 attacks.

Unfortunately for Netanyahu and Zionism, Dr. Sabrosky isn’t the only US National Security insider leaking the truth about 9/11. Hundreds of military and intelligence people have come forward (see: Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report ).The two biggest recent leaks are revelations by CIA asset Susan Lindauer that the CIA had detailed foreknowledge of 9/11 and attributed the controlled demolitions of the three NYC skyscrapers to “those goddamned Israelis”; and the assertion by Gwenyth Todd, who worked beside Richard Clarke on the National Security Council, that Clarke (who was publicly fired from an earlier job for being an Israeli spy) is the top suspect as hands-on controller of 9/11 from the US end. Yes, you heard that right: Richard Clarke’s colleague on the National Security Counsel, Gwenyth Todd, suspects Clarke of masterminding and running the 9/11 attacks. If Todd and other high-level sources are right about this, Clarke’s book’s title Your Government Failed You is an understatement.

You want the truth? You and most Americans can't handle the truth.

 

[catzmeow]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

Israel has continued to build settlements in disputed territory, bulldozing palestinian homes and businesses, and stirring up conflicts. The Israeli wall was constructed in such a way as to bisect traditionally palestinian areas, cutting off transportation and communication and access to shops and healthcare and other services. The Israelis continue to be resistant to establish palestine as a separate nation. The Israelis are currently threatening military action against Iran.

Those are all problematic. If Israel takes military action against Iran, how will the U.S. not become embroiled in that scenario, if only to keep it from boiling out of control, and that is likely to result in risking U.S. military personnel.

For the record, I'm not pro-Islam. I think it's the most backward ass religion that ever was created by a nutjob. Nor do I believe in Jewish controlled government or other anti-semitic bullshit. I just think that most Americans haven't really thought about this topic in any depth, and that these are legitimate questions that deserve to be asked.

 

[beretta304]

Wow, godwinning already?

I would never suggest that we withdraw all support from Israel. On the flip side, our support should not be a blank check to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the outcome for us.

At least you get it. Why blind support for Israel. Ask a simple question...get a dozen convoluted answers. Then you tell them you're playing devil's advocate and they attack you anyway. But they don't answer the question. Jackasses.

It's weird how nonsensical some people can be on some subjects. I included a smartass comment in my original response to you, but then I thought...it's a question worthy of serious discussion by people who are actually willing to think objectively versus simply regurgitating prejudices and emotionalism.

My point as well. Those here know I'm a conservative and would support Israel. I wanted to hear what other's thought and what they felt was in it for the U.S. just blindly supporting them. Figured it would stir some conversatoion. I should have know better around here.

I'll just go back to mindlessly attacking those I don't agree with.. It's what they seem to want.

 

[idb]

I asked what's in it for the U.S. and what does Israel do in return?

I think we're both still somewhat democratic countries at this point (though it's becoming more questionable in some cases in Israel), and having a solid relationship gives us a tactical presence in the middle east. That's of value.

On the flip side, policy decisions made by Israel, particularly under the Netanyahu administration, have been extremely detrimental to U.S. interests in the middle east, have probably prolonged conflicts over there, and have given the rabid Islamic fundamentalists an axe to grind against us. That's not small, in terms of net ill effect.

Just to add to the controversy...people on this forum are saying "fuck Egypt and Libya, after last week we should withdraw our support and stop sending them money!"
How is that different to when Israel pursues policies that stir up regional feelings against it and it's allies (specifically the US) such as annexing territory and building settlements?

Just askin'

 

[catzmeow]

At least you get it. Why blind support for Israel. Ask a simple question...get a dozen convoluted answers. Then you tell them you're playing devil's advocate and they attack you anyway. But they don't answer the question. Jackasses.

It's weird how nonsensical some people can be on some subjects. I included a smartass comment in my original response to you, but then I thought...it's a question worthy of serious discussion by people who are actually willing to think objectively versus simply regurgitating prejudices and emotionalism.

My point as well. Those here know I'm a conservative and would support Israel. I wanted to hear what other's thought and what they felt was in it for the U.S. just blindly supporting them. Figured it would stir some conversatoion. I should have know better around here.

I'll just go back to mindlessly attacking those I don't agree with.. It's what they seem to want.

If you're willing to thoughtfully discuss a subject, i'll usually be game for it.

 

[The Rabbi]

No issue there but again why should we risk American lives for Israel and what do we get in return that makes sacrificing our young worth it?

Can you be more specific what policy regarding Israel you oppose? I'm not clear how we're risking our lives for Israel.

Israel has continued to build settlements in disputed territory, bulldozing palestinian homes and businesses, and stirring up conflicts. The Israeli wall was constructed in such a way as to bisect traditionally palestinian areas, cutting off transportation and communication and access to shops and healthcare and other services. The Israelis continue to be resistant to establish palestine as a separate nation. The Israelis are currently threatening military action against Iran.

Those are all problematic. If Israel takes military action against Iran, how will the U.S. not become embroiled in that scenario, if only to keep it from boiling out of control, and that is likely to result in risking U.S. military personnel.

For the record, I'm not pro-Islam. I think it's the most backward ass religion that ever was created by a nutjob. Nor do I believe in Jewish controlled government or other anti-semitic bullshit. I just think that most Americans haven't really thought about this topic in any depth, and that these are legitimate questions that deserve to be asked.

Does it occur to you why Israel is threatening war with Iran? I mean, do you read the papers and stuff?