Believe it or not, I sorta heard a decent reason for keeping "shim" out of the ladies room

usmbguest5318

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Jan 1, 2017
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....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

FWIW, an acquaintance of mine who works in the fashion industry once shared that models -- men and women -- in fashion shows often enough have to change in front of each other during shows. They even find themselves having at times to help each other get dressed/undressed. I realize that's a unique situation and everyone who would at any point be naked look good naked, and that's something that, at least for me, would make a huge difference in how I felt about sharing a locker room with a transgender person who isn't "quite done" yet. [1]

And though I'm no locker room or changing room expert, but I've been in my share of them at various gyms from high school to last week. Very few of them have open communal showers. I've never seen a trans person using showers in those gyms. I'm pretty sure that if my boys were to see a "chick with a dick," they'd stare. I think my daughters would do the same. All of them would be thinking "WTF"...kinda like the way your dog or cat looks at you like "Are you okay? What are you doin;?" that the first time they catch you "doing the nasty." I can't say I'd blame them; I probably would too. You don't see sh*t like that "everyday." It doesn't even show up as you scroll through the channels and cross over "Skinamax" late at night.

So what I think is this...If you're trans and you know it, clap your hands....and use whatever "the F" bathroom you want. But if you're sitting on fence, slide over to one of the poles and see if feels good. If it does and you're a guy, there's a chance you're a gay size-queen. Buy a big ass dildo and that a try for a while. If it feels good and you're a woman, you should probably stay that way, but you also may need to buy a big ass dildo before you start thinking about being a dude. [2]


Note:
  1. Rant Alert -- Don't read on if you don't want to be offended, but if you do read on and you are offended, don't say I didn't warn you and then start giving me sh*t about what I wrote.
    Sh*t, who am I kidding? I don't much care for it when I'm in a locker room or on a nude beach and a "bipedal hippo" saunters by....And, you know, that always baffles me because I'm like, "These are MFs who most need to be running, jogging, speed walking, swimming by, or somehow moving with a bit more vigor than walking at a pace best measured in hours per mile"....Yet it's the hot fit people who are actually running and jumping and playing and so on....and you're thinking, "Would you just stand still for a moment please." LOL

    Anyway...Male or female, I don't care. I am just find that "I'm obese; get over it" thing gross and disgusting. It's their right; I get that. I'm going there. I'm also not going to assault someone over it, or even be unkind toward them.
  2. There's no way around it. When you get that reassignment procedure done, you are going to end up being a "short short man." You won't like that either. There is no man on the planet who will tell you "less is more" in that department. You saw how defensive Trump got over Marco Rubio's "hands" comment, didn't you? Why do you think Trump's retort was "Little Marco?" On the upside, you probably have an easier time of undoing that mess if you change your mind than would a man who turns himself into a woman.
 
....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

FWIW, an acquaintance of mine who works in the fashion industry once shared that models -- men and women -- in fashion shows often enough have to change in front of each other during shows. They even find themselves having at times to help each other get dressed/undressed. I realize that's a unique situation and everyone who would at any point be naked look good naked, and that's something that, at least for me, would make a huge difference in how I felt about sharing a locker room with a transgender person who isn't "quite done" yet. [1]

And though I'm no locker room or changing room expert, but I've been in my share of them at various gyms from high school to last week. Very few of them have open communal showers. I've never seen a trans person using showers in those gyms. I'm pretty sure that if my boys were to see a "chick with a dick," they'd stare. I think my daughters would do the same. All of them would be thinking "WTF"...kinda like the way your dog or cat looks at you like "Are you okay? What are you doin;?" that the first time they catch you "doing the nasty." I can't say I'd blame them; I probably would too. You don't see sh*t like that "everyday." It doesn't even show up as you scroll through the channels and cross over "Skinamax" late at night.

So what I think is this...If you're trans and you know it, clap your hands....and use whatever "the F" bathroom you want. But if you're sitting on fence, slide over to one of the poles and see if feels good. If it does and you're a guy, there's a chance you're a gay size-queen. Buy a big ass dildo and that a try for a while. If it feels good and you're a woman, you should probably stay that way, but you also may need to buy a big ass dildo before you start thinking about being a dude. [2]


Note:
  1. Rant Alert -- Don't read on if you don't want to be offended, but if you do read on and you are offended, don't say I didn't warn you and then start giving me sh*t about what I wrote.
    Sh*t, who am I kidding? I don't much care for it when I'm in a locker room or on a nude beach and a "bipedal hippo" saunters by....And, you know, that always baffles me because I'm like, "These are MFs who most need to be running, jogging, speed walking, swimming by, or somehow moving with a bit more vigor than walking at a pace best measured in hours per mile"....Yet it's the hot fit people who are actually running and jumping and playing and so on....and you're thinking, "Would you just stand still for a moment please." LOL

    Anyway...Male or female, I don't care. I am just find that "I'm obese; get over it" thing gross and disgusting. It's their right; I get that. I'm going there. I'm also not going to assault someone over it, or even be unkind toward them.
  2. There's no way around it. When you get that reassignment procedure done, you are going to end up being a "short short man." You won't like that either. There is no man on the planet who will tell you "less is more" in that department. You saw how defensive Trump got over Marco Rubio's "hands" comment, didn't you? Why do you think Trump's retort was "Little Marco?" On the upside, you probably have an easier time of undoing that mess if you change your mind than would a man who turns himself into a woman.

Yikes! can you imagine if people of Nudist beliefs did what people of LGBT beliefs did, and decided to impose that and REQUIRE the public to accommodate THOSE beliefs in running around naked.

Nope. Don't think we're quite ready for that yet.
We can't get over Christmas trees and gay parades.
Prayer and creation in schools. And even flags and anthems as racist.

Aren't these all faith based beliefs that are relative? And shouldn't all "creeds" be treated equally, and either be removed if not everyone agrees, or be equally tolerated as part of diversity and accommodations, instead of picking and choosing WHICH to ENDORSE OR FORCE THROUGH public policy on others.

Maybe the Nudists should come out and join the fight for inclusion.
Some group has to take this argument to such an extreme of ridiculousness
that people finally get the point, to keep our personal beliefs to ourselves
and not try to make that the responsibility of govt to impose on everyone else!
 
Probably the least important problem facing America; no, not even 'problem', just subject, topic. 0.3% of the population, all of whom have up to now had no discussion about their toilet use, now have national headlines and debate about it. Meanwhile, health care is a mess, the Middle East is alight, the running of the country is in disarray, our sisters in the world are repressed, raped and exploited. There are serious, life threatening issues, yet we are expected to take up this cause as serious and necessary.
If you ask me to go to war to liberate the women of the world, that I would consider. If you wait for me to get involved in the fight for three people out of a thousand to piss wherever they prefer, your wait will be long.
 
Yikes! can you imagine if people of Nudist beliefs did what people of LGBT beliefs did, and decided to impose that and REQUIRE the public to accommodate THOSE beliefs in running around naked.

Nope. Don't think we're quite ready for that yet.

I'm sorry. I'm not sure I quite know what you mean.
  • What beliefs have you in mind?
Oh, you mean nudist insisting that the be allowed to go to mall naked? They could do that for the most part, as far as I'm concerned, just so long as they go to a gym and keep fit. (See Note 1 in the OP if you need more detail.) My bigger concern would have to with hygiene concerns, but if Japanese style commodes become the norm in the U.S., I'd be fine with people being nude in public if they want to.

I don't think in most Western countries most folks would actually want to exercise such a right even if it weren't prohibited. The climate and environment doesn't exactly lend itself to nudity. For example, on a windy day in the city, the grit flying about would be rather irritating. Nudity in city grime and whatnot also isn't all that appealing, at least not if clean is one's thing. All the same, sure, having the freedom to make the choice, without risking incarceration, if one so desires would be fine. (One has the freedom to make that choice now, but it's a choice that has a steep "price.")
 
Probably the least important problem facing America; no, not even 'problem', just subject, topic. 0.3% of the population, all of whom have up to now had no discussion about their toilet use, now have national headlines and debate about it. Meanwhile, health care is a mess, the Middle East is alight, the running of the country is in disarray, our sisters in the world are repressed, raped and exploited. There are serious, life threatening issues, yet we are expected to take up this cause as serious and necessary.
If you ask me to go to war to liberate the women of the world, that I would consider. If you wait for me to get involved in the fight for three people out of a thousand to piss wherever they prefer, your wait will be long.
That's why Trump removed it from the .govs way.....
 
If you ask me to go to war to liberate the women of the world, that I would consider. If you wait for me to get involved in the fight for three people out of a thousand to piss wherever they prefer, your wait will be long.

If I'm sitting in a legislative chamber and called to vote, I'd vote to let them pee where they want to. Am I going to march about it? Well, only if the store/restaurant/theater I'm headed to is on the marchers' route and so the marchers are going my way anyhow, then, sure, for a few minutes why not? But once I reach my destination, I'm done marching; I'm going inside and having a cocktail.
 
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If you ask me to go to war to liberate the women of the world, that I would consider. If you wait for me to get involved in the fight for three people out of a thousand to piss wherever they prefer, your wait will be long.

If I'm sitting in a legislative chamber and called to vote, I'd vote to let them pee where they want to. Am I going to march about it? Well, only if the store/restaurant/theater I'm headed to is the marchers' route and so the marchers are going my way anyhow, then, sure, for a few minutes why not? But once I reach my destination, I'm done marching; I'm going inside and having a cocktail.
I could picture some bull dyke showering with your husband....:lol:
 
If it were not for children I would say this is a non-issue. I seriously doubt a woman wants to be in the same room as a line of urinals.

What screws up this conversation and most conversations, is that there are perverts out there who would use the new freedom to do bad things.

Sorry folks, pretending to be something you are not is a sickness. This behavior is not witnessed in nature except in the human race. Maybe animals are not smart enough to realize that just because they have a penis they are a female. I don't know. But I will say I know people that apparently by their nature were born the wrong gender. Does God make mistakes? Or is it just the evolution of man that creates such thoughts and such people?

Can it be evolutionary to believe a person is one sex over what they are born? The way I see the theory transgender run in conflict with the theory. After all these years of evolutions why would man evolve into something that doesn't support the evolutionary theory? It can't, it makes absolutely no sense. Thus, it is a learned thing not a born with thing. Therefore, make it simple, you have hangy down parts you use the men's room.
 
....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

Sorry, but by that definition, gay men have to use the women's room and lesbians the men's room. Not happening.
 
....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

Sorry, but by that definition, gay men have to use the women's room and lesbians the men's room. Not happening.

I'm sure you either didn't read carefully the "definition" or don't know what "gay man" and and "lesbian" mean. How do I know that?
  • Because there's no way for a lesbian to be a man who's confused about his sexuality.
  • Becauses a gay man isn't a transgender man.
 
....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

Sorry, but by that definition, gay men have to use the women's room and lesbians the men's room. Not happening.

I'm sure you either didn't read carefully the "definition" or don't know what "gay man" and and "lesbian" mean. How do I know that?
  • Because there's no way for a lesbian to be a man who's confused about his sexuality.
  • Becauses a gay man isn't a transgender man.

Why should confusion about their sexual orientation have any bearing on peeing according to the gender they identify with?

My female boss is married to a male to female transsexual. Should her wife have had to use the men's room while transitioning because she was still attracted to women?
 
....And you won't believe who said it.....But if you don't know, too bad because I'm not telling you.

The reason:
Transgender men (shims) are often enough, and for some period of time, confused about their sexuality. It's a good thing to keep men (not boys, men adolescents) who are confused about their sexuality out of ladies restrooms/locker rooms. While they are confused, they should use the men's room.
That is a notion that I can get behind. That's not to say I know how the hell to determine who's confused and who's sure that being a woman is the thing for them. If/when he becomes sure he should be a female and not a male, it's highly unlikely he'll be a threat to women. When shim reaches that point in his "process," I don't care what restroom/locker room he uses.

Sorry, but by that definition, gay men have to use the women's room and lesbians the men's room. Not happening.

I'm sure you either didn't read carefully the "definition" or don't know what "gay man" and and "lesbian" mean. How do I know that?
  • Because there's no way for a lesbian to be a man who's confused about his sexuality.
  • Becauses a gay man isn't a transgender man.

Why should confusion about their sexual orientation have any bearing on peeing according to the gender they identify with?

My female boss is married to a male to female transsexual. Should her wife have had to use the men's room while transitioning because she was still attracted to women?

My female boss is married to a male to female transsexual. Should her wife have had to use the men's room while transitioning because she was still attracted to women?
As you've described it, it seems shim isn't in a state of confusion, so, no.

As I stated before, you clearly didn't read the opening post. I'm not able to say you didn't literally read the words; you may have done. What I mean is that you didn't comprehend their meaning, and that is clear by the questions you're asking.

While the individual is confused about whether they identify as a man or woman, "peace and harmony" are best maintained by the individual using the restroom that corresponds to their current sex.
  • Q: What is the sexual identity of a male who is confused about whether he should be/wants to be a male or female?
    • A: Indeterminate, because he doesn't know what he wants to be.
    • Therefore --> He should use the men's room.
  • Q: What is the sexual identity of a female who is confused about whether she should be/wants to be male or female?
    • A: Indeterminate, because she doesn't know what she wants to be.
    • Therefore --> She should use the ladies' room.
It's clear to me that you are fine with transsexuals being able to use the facilities that correspond to their sexual identity, I don't see why you are taking exception with what I wrote.

Why should confusion about their sexual orientation have any bearing on peeing according to the gender they identify with?

Why are you asking me about sexual orientation when what I wrote about what restroom one should use should be determined by one's certainty regarding their sexual identity? I'm looking at your avatar and thinking that the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual identity would be clear to you and that accordingly you wouldn't conflate the two. I don't give a damn what the person's sexual orientation is.
  • Sexual identity --> The sex one thinks one is and/or wants to/should be. This is the sex one presents to the world on a routine/"everyday" basis. This isn't the sex that one might adopt as part of a sexually stimulating fantasy or fetish one might have. For example (there are others):
    • With regard to people behaving with no malicious intent toward others:
    1. A man who is sexually turned-on (to whatever degree) by wearing women's panties or stockings or even whole outfits and (not "but") and who is (1) committed to being a man and recognized by others as a man, and (2) interested in having sex with men, women, or both is a man with a fetish who sexually identifies as a man. That guy should use the men's room. He has no uncertainty about his sexual identity.
    2. A man who is sexually turned-on (to whatever degree) by wearing women's panties or stockings or even whole outfits and (not "but") and who is (1) committed to becoming a woman and wants now and in the future to be recognized by others as a woman, is a man who sexuallly identifies as a woman. That guy should use the restroom that corresponds to sex that the world perceives him to be at time he needs to use the restroom. I would imagine that man given his desire to be identified as a woman will very convincingly appear to be a woman, so I'm inclined to say ladies room.
    3. A man who obtains no sexual "charge" from wearing women's garments and who is (1) committed to being a man and recognized by others as a man and (2) who for some non-sexual reason is wearing women's clothing [1] is a man who sexually identifies as a man. That guy should use the men's room. That guy should use the restroom that corresponds to sex that the world perceives him to be at time he needs to use the restroom. I would imagine that man, given his desire to be identified as a woman, will very convincingly appear to be a woman, so I'm inclined to say ladies room.
    4. A man who obtains no sexual "charge" from wearing women's garments and who is (1) committed to being a woman and recognized by others as a woman and (2) who for some non-sexual reason is wearing women's clothing is a man who sexually identifies as a woman.
    • With regard to people behaving so as to deceive others and thereby obtain access to places in which they can carry out a lewd or lascivious act (I don't consider relieving oneself to be that) they can only perform by deceiving people, well, it doesn't matter much what these people wear or how they are perceived...they need to be locked up and treated. For example:
      • The guy who presents himself as a female so he can gain access to the ladies locker room and oogle, "flash," photograph females etc.....That guy belongs in the men's room, if not jail.
  • Sexual orientation --> The sex of the individuals one wants to "bang." [2]
    • Man wants to exclusively bang women --> heterosexual
    • Woman wants to exclusively bang women --> homosexual
    • Man wants to exclusively bang men --> homosexual
    • Woman wants to exclusively bang men --> heterosexual
    • Man wants to bang men and women --> bisexual
    • Woman wants to bang men and women --> bisexual
    • Man or woman wants to bang neither men or women --> Asexual (with regard to humans)
Now, sure as I wrote that bulleted list, that in no way should be taken as my entreating for a discussion about the vagaries of sexual orientation and sexual identity. I'm just going to hope you don't run down some sort of highly technical "rabbit hole" of psychology, culture, sexual fetishism, etc. I wasn't trying to "go there."

At any rate, I don't see why you introduced sexual orientation into the matter. It has nothing to do with it. Some transsexuals remain attracted to people of whatever sex they were attracted before sex reassignment surgery, and others do not. That is:
  • Pre-op shim attracted to men --> post op still attracted to men
  • Pre-op shim attracted to men --> post op attracted to women
  • Pre-op shim attracted to women --> post op still attracted to women
  • Pre-op shim attracted to women --> post op attracted to men
How and why that happens...I have no idea. I also don't care.

Notes:
  1. "Wearing women's clothing" is used in this post to mean "convincingly appearing to others as being a woman." It entails wearing clothing and artifice associated with women as well as feminine mannerisms and so on, and doing so in a way that passers by would have to look really closely to discern that one's sex is not the same as what their outward appearance indicates. "Kip" drunk at a frat party and wearing a bra is certainly wearing women's clothing, but nobody perceives "Kip" as a woman.
  2. "Bang" is used here to refer not only to coitus but also to the range of sexual activities one might perform.
 
I seriously doubt a woman wants to be in the same room as a line of urinals.

Urinals are little other than an efficient use of space in men's room; they allow men handle the most frequent need more rapidly without needing the space of a stall. Go to the general public restroom at intermission/halftime at a big concert or major sporting event.
  • Does a bathroom have to have urinals (or something similar...not trying to be picayune/semantic/equivocal)? I would venture to say that the majority of restrooms in the world do not.
  • Are you sure about that? Do women not enjoy "checking out the goods" as much as men do? LOL

    I don't really know as that's not something I'm aware of even being present while others had it, let my being part of such a discussion. I can tell you that for every woman who I can remember, even if I don't know their names, if asked, I tell you something about my impression of their boobs. The adjectives would be about what one would expect; nonetheless, there's no way I can honestly tell you I didn't notice and don't remember.
I's been a very, very, very long time since I've seen the inside of a ladies' room. IIRC, in about the same space one finds a pair of urinals in a men's room, one finds a loveseat or a couple chairs or a table and chair(s) in a ladies' room.

What screws up this conversation and most conversations, is that there are perverts out there who would use the new freedom to do bad things.

Agree. That said, I don't think I'd want to be unreasonable just because there are a few sexual criminal around. I don't think most people are perverts, but some definitely are. I also think felonious sexual predators are going to do what they want to do no matter the law, so why embarrass marginalized over what is going to happen even if we didn't embarrass them? I certainly don't want to see made into criminals by dint of a bad law people who have no nefarious intentions and really just want to relieve themselves in the same innocuous way we all do.

Sorry folks, pretending to be something you are not is a sickness.

Agree.

pretending to be something you are not is a sickness. This behavior is not witnessed in nature except in the human race.

I know what you mean, but I also know that statement isn't true. That is the whole point of camouflage in nature. Animals use it for two main reasons: to avoid harm or to facilitate finding food.
 
If you ask me to go to war to liberate the women of the world, that I would consider. If you wait for me to get involved in the fight for three people out of a thousand to piss wherever they prefer, your wait will be long.

If I'm sitting in a legislative chamber and called to vote, I'd vote to let them pee where they want to. Am I going to march about it? Well, only if the store/restaurant/theater I'm headed to is on the marchers' route and so the marchers are going my way anyhow, then, sure, for a few minutes why not? But once I reach my destination, I'm done marching; I'm going inside and having a cocktail.

Dear Xelor
1. the problem is "how to write the law' to define the Transgender people WITHOUT opening the door to other people who that law is not intended to accommodate.

2. also, what is wrong with NEUTRAL or single stall units?

Wouldn't THAT be the ideal since that doesn't discriminate or impose a gender or conditions at all? And doesn't REQUIRE anyone to change their beliefs.

So if govt is supposed to be neutral, why not require
1. neutral stalls if there is a conflict that can't be resolved otherwise
2. security staff at restrooms to satisfy concerns about the amount of traffic at any particular restroom site if safety is the issue causing conflict
3. VOLUNTARY fundraising that doesn't impose on the public INVOLUNTARY to cover these costs if that helps to solve the disagreement
 

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