Why is abortion the way of the world?

[Votto]

Disagree with your title and OP linking ancient human sacrifices to abortion. The human sacrifices were generally of adults to appease their gods. Abortion is the murder of babies for convenience.

I disagree with your linking abortion to convenience.

People have the right to decide for themselves how many children they want to have. The state has no compeling interest in this decision.

That's a lie. The state in the US does NOT tell women how many children to have, that is up to them.

I think you are thinking of communist China where couples are only allowed to have one child and mandatorily abort the rest.

However, the children women CHOOSE to have should not be murdered.

I don't think the quote you cited says what you think it does.

Sex is a choice, unless you are Dim in Virginia.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because it's something Taz wants to do. If he/she wanted to beat children, he/she would be insisting that the fact that the laws don't completely stop such behavior, there shouldn't be any laws at all.

That really is not the crux of that statement and there really is a problem there. Something that the pro-life position must address (and does in a few ways).

If abortion becomes illegal do you prosecute women that have an abortion? If you do, then how do you do so or even know that it was an abortion and not a miscarriage? If not, then why make it illegal in the first place?

Those are, IMHO, real questions that the pro-life position has to struggle with as there is not a good answer to them both even if there is a best answer.

That really IS the crux of the discussion I was in, but thank you so much for inserting yourself and telling me how I "have to" be having a completely different discussion.

In MY never-humble opinion, you need to ASK me if I would like to discuss what the laws should be in the event of an abortion ban, not TELL me that I HAVE to discuss it.

No, I really don't have to ask you anything. That is the beauty of freedom - I can demand that answer from you and you can continue to not give it

But in the end, 'you' was less specific and more generalized to anyone holding a pro life position. The lot of you can ignore those questions to your hearts content but that is not how you change minds and policy will not move without changing minds.

Yes, well, I did make the silly assumption that you would actually want an answer, rather than simply wanting to issue useless demands and be told to piss off. I do beg your pardon for assuming sensibility where it was not.

It isn't that we "ignore" your questions. It's that we recognize that A) they aren't anywhere close to being issues needing resolution, since abortion is nowhere close to being universally banned, B) that the people who ask those questions are NOT doing so because getting the answers will change anything, but are merely doing so as a deflection, and C) that even if we consented to discuss those issues, the people asking wouldn't be listening to the answers seriously, anyway.

You made no such assumption. You actually assumed the opposite - that is why you had a tantrum about asking when the ask is implied with the ? placed at the end of those statements. Being told to piss off - well that is just because I see no reason not to mirror your acrid style of posting right back to you I find it rather entertaining.


"We" don't do anything. Most people are quite open about those questions and will debate them. The foot stomping and whining about them, that is just a you thing. And yes, this time the you is specific.

And now you're Miss Cleo and telling me what I was REALLY thinking, as opposed to what I think I was thinking?

I am well aware that you usually have no trouble at all in fooling people into believing you actually want an honest discussion. Doesn't mean I feel the need to be similarly fooled, and it doesn't mean that there aren't other people who also no longer trust those questions.

And don't think I didn't miss the fact that you conveniently ignored the other point, ie. don't need to be resolved right now (and certainly don't need to be resolved before we're "allowed" to oppose abortion).

But by all means, if pretending to be all lofty about me "foot stomping" allows you to retreat while feeling like you won some sort of victory, be off with you. Not like you weren't wasting my time anyway.

 

[Cecilie1200]

child
Dictionary result for child
/CHīld/
noun

1. a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
   synonyms: youngster, young one, little one, boy, girl;
   baby, newborn, infant, toddler;
   schoolboy, schoolgirl, adolescent, teenager, youth, young man, young woman, young lady, young person, young adult, juvenile, minor, junior;
   stripling, fledgling, whippersnapper;
   son, daughter, son and heir, scion, descendant;
   offspring, progeny, issue;
   technicalneonate;
   bairn, wean, laddie, lassie;
   pickney;
   informalkid, kiddie, kiddiewink, nipper, tot, tiny, tiny tot, shaver, young 'un, lad, lass, teen, teenybopper;
   informalsprog;
   informalrug rat;
   informalankle-biter;
   derogatorybrat, chit, urchin, guttersnipe;
   literarybabe, babe in arms;
   archaichobbledehoy
   "I've known Kate since she was a child"
   • a son or daughter of any age.
   • an immature or irresponsible person.
     "she's such a child!"

Did you even read your own definition? It's pretty obvious you didn't understand it. You were too busy shouting, "Woo hoo! There are other dictionaries! Who knew?!"

 

[BlindBoo]

A fetus is not a child. An embryo is not a child. A zygote is not a child. A viable fetus could very well become a human being but until it has a successful birth, it is not a human being. Human? Yes of course.

Are the dictionaries and other medical references which say otherwise, wrong?

Prove it.

Who makes up defs anyway.....

hu·man be·ing
Dictionary result for human being
noun

1. a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

And?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you finally discovered the existence of dictionaries, and the fact that the Internet does more than stream porn. But what's your point?

Yeah, but if it weren't for kids paying to download dirty pictures of naked ladies the internet just wouldn't be the same......

Do you see fetus, embryo, or zygote included in that def?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yes, we have certain similar DNA. No, that is not in any way even remotely relevant to the fact that we're different species, different genera, different all the way up to phylum level. In other words, only an ignorant ass clown thinks "Well, chicken eggs . . ." has anything to say about human reproduction. And trying to pretend that citing DNA similarities somehow makes your argument LESS of a joke actually makes you sound even more ridiculous.

Seriously, stop. Go back to "Abortion is good because I hate religion!" It was stupid, but at least it was a type of stupid you were familiar with.

That's too funny.

Who said abortion is good?

Because I find belief in the supernatural absurd, doesn't mean I hate religion. But I suppose any insult works if that's what your into. (Opsie did i forgat a contraction......).

"Just because I attack and denigrate religion every chance I get doesn't mean I hate it. It just means the only way I can pretend I'm not a loser is if I pretend that I'm better than someone - anyone! - else."

Who's pretending. I'm a loser. I lost my High School sweetheart, and I've been suffering ever since.

Now who said abortion was good?

You know how I know when you've lost an argument so soundly even YOU recognize it? When you start trying to word-parse.

You're championing abortion, which is evil to start with. If you're doing so while thinking it's a bad thing, then that's exponentially evil.

So if you want to deny the benefit of the doubt I was giving you, that's up to you. I'm perfectly happy to go with you being irredeemably evil and disgusting, if you are.

My wife had an abortion after she was raped at the age of 13. It's good that she had a choice to have an abortion, but that doesn't mean terminating a developing life is a good thing. It didn't turn her into a soulless husk of a person. She's had three other children who have grown and are starting to have kids of their own. I also support the death penalty but I don't think a death sentence is a good thing either.

Do I look like your frigging therapist?! If you're going to insist on spewing your personal life all over me, I'm going to insist you at least give me $300 an hour.

Personal boundaries, dude! Serious overshare.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A fetus is not a child. An embryo is not a child. A zygote is not a child. A viable fetus could very well become a human being but until it has a successful birth, it is not a human being. Human? Yes of course.

Are the dictionaries and other medical references which say otherwise, wrong?

Prove it.

Who makes up defs anyway.....

hu·man be·ing
Dictionary result for human being
noun

1. a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

And?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you finally discovered the existence of dictionaries, and the fact that the Internet does more than stream porn. But what's your point?

Yeah, but if it weren't for kids paying to download dirty pictures of naked ladies the internet just wouldn't be the same......

Do you see fetus, embryo, or zygote included in that def?

Do you know how I know that even YOU are aware you have lost an argument? You start word-parsing.

Whoa, deja vu! Could swear I already said this.

You're done.

 

[hazlnut]

It is called being responsible to not bring an unwelcome child into the world.

Being responsible is not getting pregnant in the first place.

Genesis tells us that's impossible.

God himself comes down to the Garden and says, "Hey kids, no funny business. I'm serious. I will erase you."
Not the gym teacher or the school nurse. Not Father Callahan or Pastor Corey. GOD HIMSELF warmed them.

God leaves. Then Eve bites the apple, figures out how sex organs work, and.... wham-bam-thank you ma'am!!!

God returns, sees the fig leaves. Ah-ha! God then becomes the first parent to ever go back on a threat; he doesn't erase, just banishment.

Why does God do this? Because he realizes, I created them as sexual beings, and they had SEX.

Humans will have sex. Not always at ideal times.

 

[BlindBoo]

A fetus is not a child. An embryo is not a child. A zygote is not a child. A viable fetus could very well become a human being but until it has a successful birth, it is not a human being. Human? Yes of course.

Are the dictionaries and other medical references which say otherwise, wrong?

Prove it.

Who makes up defs anyway.....

hu·man be·ing
Dictionary result for human being
noun

1. a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

And?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you finally discovered the existence of dictionaries, and the fact that the Internet does more than stream porn. But what's your point?

Yeah, but if it weren't for kids paying to download dirty pictures of naked ladies the internet just wouldn't be the same......

Do you see fetus, embryo, or zygote included in that def?

Do you know how I know that even YOU are aware you have lost an argument? You start word-parsing.

Whoa, deja vu! Could swear I already said this.

You're done.

You certainly win the "claiming to win" whiner prize. You get your questions answered and continue to whine and pretend you win. Yeah for you.

 

[Chuz Life]

Are the dictionaries and other medical references which say otherwise, wrong?

Prove it.

Who makes up defs anyway.....

hu·man be·ing
Dictionary result for human being
noun

1. a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

And?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you finally discovered the existence of dictionaries, and the fact that the Internet does more than stream porn. But what's your point?

Yeah, but if it weren't for kids paying to download dirty pictures of naked ladies the internet just wouldn't be the same......

Do you see fetus, embryo, or zygote included in that def?

Do you know how I know that even YOU are aware you have lost an argument? You start word-parsing.

Whoa, deja vu! Could swear I already said this.

You're done.

You certainly win the "claiming to win" whiner prize. You get your questions answered and continue to whine and pretend you win. Yeah for you.

Seriously.

You lost the point of the discussion.

Get over it.

 

[Dragonlady]

Name any one crime against humanity that has been completely "stopped."

Why are you demanding more when comes to stopping abortions than you are for any other form of child molestation?

Because it's something Taz wants to do. If he/she wanted to beat children, he/she would be insisting that the fact that the laws don't completely stop such behavior, there shouldn't be any laws at all.

That really is not the crux of that statement and there really is a problem there. Something that the pro-life position must address (and does in a few ways).

If abortion becomes illegal do you prosecute women that have an abortion? If you do, then how do you do so or even know that it was an abortion and not a miscarriage? If not, then why make it illegal in the first place?

Those are, IMHO, real questions that the pro-life position has to struggle with as there is not a good answer to them both even if there is a best answer.

That really IS the crux of the discussion I was in, but thank you so much for inserting yourself and telling me how I "have to" be having a completely different discussion.

In MY never-humble opinion, you need to ASK me if I would like to discuss what the laws should be in the event of an abortion ban, not TELL me that I HAVE to discuss it.

No, I really don't have to ask you anything. That is the beauty of freedom - I can demand that answer from you and you can continue to not give it

But in the end, 'you' was less specific and more generalized to anyone holding a pro life position. The lot of you can ignore those questions to your hearts content but that is not how you change minds and policy will not move without changing minds.

Yes, well, I did make the silly assumption that you would actually want an answer, rather than simply wanting to issue useless demands and be told to piss off. I do beg your pardon for assuming sensibility where it was not.

It isn't that we "ignore" your questions. It's that we recognize that A) they aren't anywhere close to being issues needing resolution, since abortion is nowhere close to being universally banned, B) that the people who ask those questions are NOT doing so because getting the answers will change anything, but are merely doing so as a deflection, and C) that even if we consented to discuss those issues, the people asking wouldn't be listening to the answers seriously, anyway.

I love how Old Lady's refusal to answer the ridiculous questions you posed is a "deflection" but her posing questions which you find uncomfortable and have no answers for, is her being demanding, and you're not going to play.

There isn't a single legal or moral basis for banning abortion. Forcing women to bear children they don't want and can't afford, will never pass muster with the Supreme Court.

Every jurisdiction which has banned abortion, has moved on to question and place under suspicion all women who have miscarriages. Especially those jurisdictions, where women are prosecuted for abortion. Especially if the miscarriage is deemed "fortuitous". Where there were circumstances where the impending birth was less than a "blessed event".

The whole notion that the only purpose of sex is for procreation is false, and that those who don't want children, should remain celebate. Given that more than half the women who have abortions are either married or in a committed relationship with the father of the child, telling married couples sleeping in the same bed not to have sex is ridiculous.

According to the drug companies who manufacture them, birth control pills are 99.9% effective when taken "optimally". That mean's taking the pill at exactly the same time of day, in the exact same manner, every single day, while healthy. Missing the time of day, even by a hour, or two, can lower the effectiveness of the pill. If you become ill, drugs for your illness may interact negatively with your BC and reduce your effectiveness, so that in the real world, the actual failure rate of birth control pills, is 9%.

Reproductive health and abortion statistics show that of the 90% of women who are married or cohabitting with their male partner (the women who are the most sexually active, and most at risk of getting pregnant in a given year) are using birth control. 68% of these high risk women are using consistently their birth control and correctly, and still 5% of these women who are living moral lives and taking birth control very seriously, will have an unintended pregnancy.

Of the other 32% of women who are married or cohabitting, most are using birth control, but not in the optimal manner, their rate of pregnancy will me much higher, so much so that the majority of women having abortions fall into the category of "married or in a committed relationship". An even larger percentage already have more than one child.

Contraceptive Use in the United States

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

 

[Chuz Life]

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

No problem.

Done.

Now, when are you ******* leftardz going to stop lying, denying and hiding the fact that legalized abortion denies the Constitutional rights of the children being killed?

Soon?

 

[alang1216]

Sacred applies to both religious concepts (Jesus is sacred) or non religious ones (my memories are sacred). Further, the sanctity of life is not a dictionary word - it is a phrase with more meaning - Sanctity of life - Wikipedia - that encompass religious precepts as well as secular precepts aka ethics.

I'd still argue that it's meaning and use is mostly based on religion.

From your link:

In Christianity:

The phrase sanctity of life refers to the idea that human life is sacred, holy, and precious, argued mainly by the pro-life side in political and moral debates over such controversial issues as abortion, contraception, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, and the "right to die" in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom and other English-speaking countries. (Comparable phrases are also used in other languages.) Although the phrase was used primarily in the 19th century in Protestant discourse, after World War II the phrase has been used in Catholic moral theology and, following Roe v. Wade, Evangelical Christian moral rhetoric.[1]​

In many cases it is but that is not of necessity. There is both a secular and religious side to that philosophy and that is VERY important. I say this because assuming the sanctity of life is a religious concept leads to doing exactly what you did - equating the basis of a pro life position as a religious basis. That drags the debate from its proper place into simply dismissing the pro life position as religious dogma.

I don't disagree with what you say but I still believe the belief that a fertilized egg is somehow equivalent to a full grown adult is based mostly on a religious belief

 

[Chuz Life]

Sacred applies to both religious concepts (Jesus is sacred) or non religious ones (my memories are sacred). Further, the sanctity of life is not a dictionary word - it is a phrase with more meaning - Sanctity of life - Wikipedia - that encompass religious precepts as well as secular precepts aka ethics.

I'd still argue that it's meaning and use is mostly based on religion.

From your link:

In Christianity:

The phrase sanctity of life refers to the idea that human life is sacred, holy, and precious, argued mainly by the pro-life side in political and moral debates over such controversial issues as abortion, contraception, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, and the "right to die" in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom and other English-speaking countries. (Comparable phrases are also used in other languages.) Although the phrase was used primarily in the 19th century in Protestant discourse, after World War II the phrase has been used in Catholic moral theology and, following Roe v. Wade, Evangelical Christian moral rhetoric.[1]​

In many cases it is but that is not of necessity. There is both a secular and religious side to that philosophy and that is VERY important. I say this because assuming the sanctity of life is a religious concept leads to doing exactly what you did - equating the basis of a pro life position as a religious basis. That drags the debate from its proper place into simply dismissing the pro life position as religious dogma.

I don't disagree with what you say but I still believe the belief that a fertilized egg is somehow equivalent to a full grown adult is based mostly on a religious belief

That is easy enough to get past.

All you have to do is accept the fact that (at the very least biologically) all human beings are equally human beings, regardless of their age, sex, race, creed, maladys or stage of development.

Himan beings do not MORPH out of one organism that is NOT a human being and into an organism that IS a human being.

 

[FA_Q2]

Sacred applies to both religious concepts (Jesus is sacred) or non religious ones (my memories are sacred). Further, the sanctity of life is not a dictionary word - it is a phrase with more meaning - Sanctity of life - Wikipedia - that encompass religious precepts as well as secular precepts aka ethics.

I'd still argue that it's meaning and use is mostly based on religion.

From your link:

In Christianity:

The phrase sanctity of life refers to the idea that human life is sacred, holy, and precious, argued mainly by the pro-life side in political and moral debates over such controversial issues as abortion, contraception, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, and the "right to die" in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom and other English-speaking countries. (Comparable phrases are also used in other languages.) Although the phrase was used primarily in the 19th century in Protestant discourse, after World War II the phrase has been used in Catholic moral theology and, following Roe v. Wade, Evangelical Christian moral rhetoric.[1]​

In many cases it is but that is not of necessity. There is both a secular and religious side to that philosophy and that is VERY important. I say this because assuming the sanctity of life is a religious concept leads to doing exactly what you did - equating the basis of a pro life position as a religious basis. That drags the debate from its proper place into simply dismissing the pro life position as religious dogma.

I don't disagree with what you say but I still believe the belief that a fertilized egg is somehow equivalent to a full grown adult is based mostly on a religious belief

The question I would ask, then, is how you can be so sure of a worldview precept's origins when you do not even ascribe to that precept yourself? Claiming that a persons belief is based on one thing or the other is presuming you understand their mind better than they do.

 

[Dragonlady]

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

No problem.

Done.

Now, when are you ******* leftardz going to stop lying, denying and hiding the fact that legalized abortion denies the Constitutional rights of the children being killed?

Soon?

As soon as they start killing "children", we'll object. That has never happened. No child has been killed.

 

[Chuz Life]

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

No problem.

Done.

Now, when are you ******* leftardz going to stop lying, denying and hiding the fact that legalized abortion denies the Constitutional rights of the children being killed?

Soon?

As soon as they start killing "children", we'll object. That has never happened. No child has been killed.

 

[gipper]

Because it's something Taz wants to do. If he/she wanted to beat children, he/she would be insisting that the fact that the laws don't completely stop such behavior, there shouldn't be any laws at all.

That really is not the crux of that statement and there really is a problem there. Something that the pro-life position must address (and does in a few ways).

If abortion becomes illegal do you prosecute women that have an abortion? If you do, then how do you do so or even know that it was an abortion and not a miscarriage? If not, then why make it illegal in the first place?

Those are, IMHO, real questions that the pro-life position has to struggle with as there is not a good answer to them both even if there is a best answer.

That really IS the crux of the discussion I was in, but thank you so much for inserting yourself and telling me how I "have to" be having a completely different discussion.

In MY never-humble opinion, you need to ASK me if I would like to discuss what the laws should be in the event of an abortion ban, not TELL me that I HAVE to discuss it.

No, I really don't have to ask you anything. That is the beauty of freedom - I can demand that answer from you and you can continue to not give it

But in the end, 'you' was less specific and more generalized to anyone holding a pro life position. The lot of you can ignore those questions to your hearts content but that is not how you change minds and policy will not move without changing minds.

Yes, well, I did make the silly assumption that you would actually want an answer, rather than simply wanting to issue useless demands and be told to piss off. I do beg your pardon for assuming sensibility where it was not.

It isn't that we "ignore" your questions. It's that we recognize that A) they aren't anywhere close to being issues needing resolution, since abortion is nowhere close to being universally banned, B) that the people who ask those questions are NOT doing so because getting the answers will change anything, but are merely doing so as a deflection, and C) that even if we consented to discuss those issues, the people asking wouldn't be listening to the answers seriously, anyway.

I love how Old Lady's refusal to answer the ridiculous questions you posed is a "deflection" but her posing questions which you find uncomfortable and have no answers for, is her being demanding, and you're not going to play.

There isn't a single legal or moral basis for banning abortion. Forcing women to bear children they don't want and can't afford, will never pass muster with the Supreme Court.

Every jurisdiction which has banned abortion, has moved on to question and place under suspicion all women who have miscarriages. Especially those jurisdictions, where women are prosecuted for abortion. Especially if the miscarriage is deemed "fortuitous". Where there were circumstances where the impending birth was less than a "blessed event".

The whole notion that the only purpose of sex is for procreation is false, and that those who don't want children, should remain celebate. Given that more than half the women who have abortions are either married or in a committed relationship with the father of the child, telling married couples sleeping in the same bed not to have sex is ridiculous.

According to the drug companies who manufacture them, birth control pills are 99.9% effective when taken "optimally". That mean's taking the pill at exactly the same time of day, in the exact same manner, every single day, while healthy. Missing the time of day, even by a hour, or two, can lower the effectiveness of the pill. If you become ill, drugs for your illness may interact negatively with your BC and reduce your effectiveness, so that in the real world, the actual failure rate of birth control pills, is 9%.

Reproductive health and abortion statistics show that of the 90% of women who are married or cohabitting with their male partner (the women who are the most sexually active, and most at risk of getting pregnant in a given year) are using birth control. 68% of these high risk women are using consistently their birth control and correctly, and still 5% of these women who are living moral lives and taking birth control very seriously, will have an unintended pregnancy.

Of the other 32% of women who are married or cohabitting, most are using birth control, but not in the optimal manner, their rate of pregnancy will me much higher, so much so that the majority of women having abortions fall into the category of "married or in a committed relationship". An even larger percentage already have more than one child.

Contraceptive Use in the United States

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

If a woman is so dumb as to get pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy, screw her. Nothing is easier than preventing pregnancy. Being dumb shouldn’t allow you to play God.

 

[GreenAndBlue]

China's abortion is partly self defense of life. Western democracies are totally for GREED. Can't wait 9 months

China lost so many males to
Japan's ruthless murdering

They worked their abortion to help win future wars. With a lot more males

Partially A self defense of life act

Trump will
Transform the whole European way of living life

By helping Putin ?

You've got no idea.

Trump is destroying liberalism

By exposing its hypocrisies.

Yep. Human nature gets upset with hypocrisy ...and their anger then stops it. The most wise will see the hypocrisy first and these would be white males

The wise white males has judged Muellers probe as blackmail to scare trump to over look the more serious crimes by democrats

Barr is soon to be confirmed and the investigations of the deep state will begin

And soon both investigations will be looked at side by side

Barr will declare the mueller probe as a blackmail crime to cover up more serious crimes

Trump has the white men with their highest logic ability who already had judged Muellers probe as blackmail

Barr or anyone cannot afford to go against the REAL POWER. The white males

The white males has never lost a war

 

[Lesh]

Nothing is easier than preventing pregnancy.

If you're male

They never seem to get pregnant

 

[gipper]

Nothing is easier than preventing pregnancy.

If you're male

They never seem to get pregnant

Dumb Fer.

I can’t help the fact that I am a male.