What is Zionism?

[Shusha]

Zionism is a policy of Jewish sovereignty over ancestral Jewish land. Nothing more. There is nothing either cruel or oppressive about wanting sovereignty and self-determination over your indigenous homelands. There is nothing inherently cruel in the concept. That is what most peoples want. Kurds, Tibetans, Catalonians, Basques, First Nations, and Palestinians are all examples. The Jewish people are no different.

(Yes, yes, I know you are going to argue that the Jewish people are not indigenous to Israel, but that is a foolish argument against recognizable reality.)

You mean other than almost all of them came from Europe, not Palestine?

Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

In 1890 there were 43K Jews in Palestine compared to 432K Muslims. By 1947, there were 630K Jews in Palestine compared to 1.181 million Muslims. Muslims were still the majority, and if there was a vote on whether or not to be a Jewish State of a Muslim one, the Jews would have lost.

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on having a majority. Its not a right that can be put to a vote and denied to some. All peoples have those rights.

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on individual residence. It is a collective right, belonging to the people as a whole. Just as Palestinians in their diaspora are STILL Palestinian so are all Jews STILL Jewish.

(If you want to argue that a forced diaspora removes a people's basic human rights, go ahead. But that doesn't leave very many "real" Palestinians in the world.)

 

[JoeB131]

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on having a majority. Its not a right that can be put to a vote and denied to some. All peoples have those rights.

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on individual residence. It is a collective right, belonging to the people as a whole. Just as Palestinians in their diaspora are STILL Palestinian so are all Jews STILL Jewish.

(If you want to argue that a forced diaspora removes a people's basic human rights, go ahead. But that doesn't leave very many "real" Palestinians in the world.)

The problem with that position is that it assumes the Jews are a "nationality" instead of a "Religion". This is absurd on its face. It also assumes a claim on a land because 3000 years ago, people who used to live there practiced an earlier version of their religion, although it can be equally argued that Islam, Christianity, Mandeanism, and others have an equally good claim as they are also descended from that theology.

So you have to see Zionism for what it actually is, European colonialism in its most naked form.

 

[Shusha]

The problem with that position is that it assumes the Jews are a "nationality" instead of a "Religion".

The problem with your position is that it is just an excuse to deny the Jewish people the same basic rights that all people have. There is no objective definition of a "people" with rights to national self-determination which does not include the Jewish people.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Zionism is a policy of Jewish sovereignty over ancestral Jewish land. Nothing more. There is nothing either cruel or oppressive about wanting sovereignty and self-determination over your indigenous homelands. There is nothing inherently cruel in the concept. That is what most peoples want. Kurds, Tibetans, Catalonians, Basques, First Nations, and Palestinians are all examples. The Jewish people are no different.

(Yes, yes, I know you are going to argue that the Jewish people are not indigenous to Israel, but that is a foolish argument against recognizable reality.)

You mean other than almost all of them came from Europe, not Palestine?

Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

In 1890 there were 43K Jews in Palestine compared to 432K Muslims. By 1947, there were 630K Jews in Palestine compared to 1.181 million Muslims. Muslims were still the majority, and if there was a vote on whether or not to be a Jewish State of a Muslim one, the Jews would have lost.

What exactly is your issue with the Jews having lived in Europe before returning to their ancestral homeland in Palestine/Land of Israel?

MOST Palestinians are ARABS who had never lived in Palestine/Land of Israel but immigrated into the area at the end of the 19th century until 1948.

ARABS are from Arabia. That is their indigenous homeland.

Wherever Arabs immigrated to since the 7th century, it does not give them the right to the land they, or other Muslims - like the Turks or the Moors - ended up invading and conquering.

It does not matter that the number of Muslims was greater than the number of Jews on the Land. Jews are still the only indigenous people on the Land. And have never given up title over their lands.

It does not matter that the number of Europeans is greater in the Continent of Australia than the number of Aborigines.
The Aborigines are still the indigenous people of that Continent.
The Aborigines have not given up title over their lands.

It does not matter how many Europeans or Asians now live in the Americas and are greater in numbers than all the indigenous tribes which still live on those continents.

Why go by numbers and not the rights of a people over their ancient land, where they became a Nation and continue to be attached forever to their land. Where their ancestors are buried, where their history took place, where any and all of those indigenous people have survived endless invasions to call themselves who they are. The indigenous people, the First Nations of those lands.

The Jewish Nation is the first Nation of the land.

Arabs, Palestinians or not, are the invaders who will do anything to keep the land for themselves.

Worse, they follow the Islamic teachings of not allowing any land conquered by Muslims to be returned to the rightful owners, the indigenous people they took the land from.

Muslims are the invading conquering group of the area.
They do not get a "vote" as to whether that small piece of land now know as Israel should exist or not.

The extremist ones proved that they did not want to give up any inch of the conquered land to the Jews by endlessly attacking them and then saying no several times to partitions in 1937, 1947, and the peace treaties which were tried again and again.

The Muslim vote, the extremist - I must follow the Quran's teachings' one - is this:
"Jews are Apes and pigs, and as Muslims we are going to kill them wherever we find them"

Attempts were made to find a sane voice amongst the Arabs/ Muslims.
The sane ones were killed or made to hide or killed.
Israel and the Jews are left with the extremist ones from Al Husseini to others in his clan, like Arafat, and now we have Abbas and Hamas fighting for supremacy amongst them, and still wishing the Jews dead.

Negotiate all you like with barbarians like this. Not all Arabs are barbarians, they want peace. But they do not have the power, and may never have it.

Here we are with Iran, and Qatar, and Hezbollah, who have what to do with the Arabs living in Palestine, except for using them as killing machines against Jews?

Nothing one says will make any difference on people who think the way you do.

And so, Israel must remain strong, and stronger. And it will because it keeps learning the hard lessons the hard way.

 

[Shusha]

This is absurd on its face. It also assumes a claim on a land because 3000 years ago, people who used to live there ...

No. It is a claim that for more than 3000 years the indigenous Jewish peoples have maintained a home and a presence on their ancestral territory. It is no different than the First Nations peoples of the Americas claiming indigenous presence on their ancestral territory.

...practiced an earlier version of their religion, although it can be equally argued that Islam, Christianity, Mandeanism, and others have an equally good claim as they are also descended from that theology.

Usurping someone's theology does not negate the human rights of the originators of the theology.

So you have to see Zionism for what it actually is, European colonialism in its most naked form.

Oh, I assure you I see accusations of "Zionism" as a dirty word EXACTLY for what it is -- a thinly disguised form of antisemitism. As a test for that, why don't you make me an argument for the Jewish people having a right to self-determination and self-government just like any other people?

 

[Sixties Fan]

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on having a majority. Its not a right that can be put to a vote and denied to some. All peoples have those rights.

The basic human right, established in international law, to a people's self-determination and sovereignty does not depend on individual residence. It is a collective right, belonging to the people as a whole. Just as Palestinians in their diaspora are STILL Palestinian so are all Jews STILL Jewish.

(If you want to argue that a forced diaspora removes a people's basic human rights, go ahead. But that doesn't leave very many "real" Palestinians in the world.)

The problem with that position is that it assumes the Jews are a "nationality" instead of a "Religion". This is absurd on its face. It also assumes a claim on a land because 3000 years ago, people who used to live there practiced an earlier version of their religion, although it can be equally argued that Islam, Christianity, Mandeanism, and others have an equally good claim as they are also descended from that theology.

So you have to see Zionism for what it actually is, European colonialism in its most naked form.

Jews are a nation, you understand it or not.
And Jews are also a religion. You understand it or not.
And, they did not "used to live there". They ALWAYS lived there.
There never was a time when Jews were not present on the land, no matter what numbers.
And they always returned to their ancient homeland. That is documented.

Neither Christianity, Islam or any other cult or religion has any claim on the land of Israel. Only the Jewish Nation/People.

You endlessly give false reasons to excuse the idea that Jews have no right to that land.

The ONLY rightful people to the land of Israel, are the Jewish People/Nation.

Choose knowledge.

 

[Shusha]

Muslims are the invading conquering group of the area.
They do not get a "vote" as to whether that small piece of land now know as Israel should exist or not.

No one gets to vote on whether people have human rights. They are inherent and inviolable.

 

[K9Buck]

Muslims are the invading conquering group of the area.
They do not get a "vote" as to whether that small piece of land now know as Israel should exist or not.

No one gets to vote on whether people have human rights. They are inherent and inviolable.

A point not in dispute.

 

[Shusha]

Muslims are the invading conquering group of the area.
They do not get a "vote" as to whether that small piece of land now know as Israel should exist or not.

No one gets to vote on whether people have human rights. They are inherent and inviolable.

A point not in dispute.

A point which should not be in dispute, but somehow is by anti-Zionists (read: antisemites) who think that the Jewish people only get to have self-determination and sovereignty if the Arab Muslims vote that its okay.

 

[BulletProof]

A point which should not be in dispute, but somehow is by anti-Zionists (read: antisemites) who think that the Jewish people only get to have self-determination and sovereignty if the Arab Muslims vote that its okay.

Zionists think Palestinians shouldn't have self-determination and sovereignty. I say we nuke Israel until we achieve equality in the middle-east.

 

[JoeB131]

The problem with your position is that it is just an excuse to deny the Jewish people the same basic rights that all people have. There is no objective definition of a "people" with rights to national self-determination which does not include the Jewish people.

A people would have a common language and history. Not just a common religion, and they can't even agree on that.

Usurping someone's theology does not negate the human rights of the originators of the theology.

Good point. If you are really goign to claim a big fairy in the sky as an authority, you probably should go by which religion has done the best.

Oh, I assure you I see accusations of "Zionism" as a dirty word EXACTLY for what it is -- a thinly disguised form of antisemitism. As a test for that, why don't you make me an argument for the Jewish people having a right to self-determination and self-government just like any other people?

Zionism is a dirty word because what it has come to mean, a form of religious apartheid. And since the Arabs are must as much "Semites" as the Jews (Maybe more so because they didn't do all that interbreeding with Europeans) it's kind of hard to use the old "Anti-Semitism" canard when one groups of Semites are abusing another.

 

[JoeB131]

Jews are a nation, you understand it or not.
And Jews are also a religion. You understand it or not.
And, they did not "used to live there". They ALWAYS lived there.
There never was a time when Jews were not present on the land, no matter what numbers.
And they always returned to their ancient homeland. That is documented.

Um, guy, by the 19th century, there were very few Jews in Palestine. Only when the Europeans started dumping them there did this become a problem. And most of them weren't to keen to go until Hitler started turning them into lampshades.

Neither Christianity, Islam or any other cult or religion has any claim on the land of Israel. Only the Jewish Nation/People.

Why, because a Magic Fairy in the Sky Said so? There are some Jews who say Israel is illegitimate because the Messiah didn't come by to restore it.

 

[Sixties Fan]

A point which should not be in dispute, but somehow is by anti-Zionists (read: antisemites) who think that the Jewish people only get to have self-determination and sovereignty if the Arab Muslims vote that its okay.

Zionists think Palestinians shouldn't have self-determination and sovereignty. I say we nuke Israel until we achieve equality in the middle-east.

You are delusional.
Jews allowed the Hashemite Arabs to keep 77% of their ancient Jewish land.
The Hashemites had no right at all to any of it.
To this day Israel has not demanded the land back, nor will it ever.

The Arabs were offered partition in 1937 and 1947. They chose war and to kill all the Jews. They lost. They have chosen war ever since, to lose each and every time and never sign a Peace treaty or follow the Oslo Accords which would have lead to a Peace Treaty between the two.

Nuke yourself. There will be peace in the world for sure, then

 

[Shusha]

Zionists think Palestinians shouldn't have self-determination and sovereignty.

Not true. Its just not true. Israel has repeatedly tried to facilitate Palestinian sovereignty. They keep turning it down.

I say we nuke Israel until we achieve equality in the middle-east.

Well, if you want equality, why nuke just Israel? Why don't we nuke the whole ME and start again?

 

[Sixties Fan]

The problem with your position is that it is just an excuse to deny the Jewish people the same basic rights that all people have. There is no objective definition of a "people" with rights to national self-determination which does not include the Jewish people.

A people would have a common language and history. Not just a common religion, and they can't even agree on that.

Usurping someone's theology does not negate the human rights of the originators of the theology.

Good point. If you are really goign to claim a big fairy in the sky as an authority, you probably should go by which religion has done the best.

Oh, I assure you I see accusations of "Zionism" as a dirty word EXACTLY for what it is -- a thinly disguised form of antisemitism. As a test for that, why don't you make me an argument for the Jewish people having a right to self-determination and self-government just like any other people?

Zionism is a dirty word because what it has come to mean, a form of religious apartheid. And since the Arabs are must as much "Semites" as the Jews (Maybe more so because they didn't do all that interbreeding with Europeans) it's kind of hard to use the old "Anti-Semitism" canard when one groups of Semites are abusing another.

You do not get to change the meaning of the word Zionism simply because Jews have been successful in not being totally destroyed by loony Christians and Muslims.

Interbreeding, etc, etc, etc.

You are a sad Jew hater.

Every single pathetic thing thrown against Jews you keep repeating on the threads here.

Congratulate yourself.

Memorex, right?

 

[JoeB131]

You are delusional.
Jews allowed the Hashemite Arabs to keep 77% of their ancient land.
To this day Israel has not demanded the land back, nor will it ever.

The Arabs were offered partition in 1937 and 1947. They chose war and to kill all the Jews. They lost. They have chosen war ever since, to lose each and every time and never sign a Peace treaty or follow the Oslo Accords which would have lead to a Peace Treaty between the two.

Why should they agree to the theft of their land?

It took them 200 years to get rid of the Crusaders, but they got rid of the Crusaders.

 

[Shusha]

A people would have a common language and history.

THANK YOU! A common language and history is a most excellent objective definition of a "people". How does this exclude the Jewish people? You DO know about Hebrew, right? And you DO know about the history of Israel?

Good point. If you are really goign to claim a big fairy in the sky as an authority, you probably should go by which religion has done the best.

I do. That's why I believe in Judaism.

 

[JoeB131]

You do not get to change the meaning of the word Zionism simply because Jews have been successful in not being totally destroyed by loony Christians and Muslims.

What loony Christians? Oh, never mind.

Interbreeding, etc, etc, etc.

You are a sad Jew hater.

Every single pathetic thing thrown against Jews you keep repeating on the threads here.

If the European Jews wanted to form a homeland in Europe, I'd have no issue with that. They didn't. They tried to carve out someone else's land.

But here's the thing. If my neighbor said to me, "Hey, Joe, all the rest of the folks in the neighborhood decide we really don't like you, and we are going to strap bombs to our kids to try to blow you up and get you out."....

...I'd move.

 

[JoeB131]

THANK YOU! A common language and history is a most excellent objective definition of a "people". How does this exclude the Jewish people? You DO know about Hebrew, right? And you DO know about the history of Israel?

Except the Invaders didn't speak Hebrew, they spoke Yiddish and a bunch of other languages. The Zionist entity had to reintroduce Hebrew as a conversational language. .

 

[Shusha]

Why should they agree to the theft of their land?

It took them 200 years to get rid of the Crusaders, but they got rid of the Crusaders.

So, it took the Jewish people 3000 thousand years to regain sovereignty over her land. But she did it.