To Bible-reading Christians...

[-Cp]

I don't think it was perfect in the way most people normally think about it. Nothing can truly be enjoyable without hardship. Possessions lose their meaning if they are not earned. I think there was definitely 'discomfort,' but nothing truly horriffic like plagues and death and such.

I'm much more inlclined to think of Eden as the place of "perfection" in the sense that it was God's personal handiwork - a Utopia of things being done for Adam and Eve and in the sense that there wasn't sin.

Based on some arguements in this thread, one could tend to believe that sickness is somehow caused by sin...

 

[Nienna]

So.. how many things happened before Creation because "God knew they'd happen"?

Do you think Christ was really up in Heaven going "FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY! NOW THAT MY FATHER CREATED MAN, I'M GONNA HAVE TO GO SUFFER!!!"

I see folks frequently say things such as "because God isn't bound by time blah blah blah..." - where does it say in SCRIPTURE that he isn't bound by time - even if by his own choice and soveriegnty?

Actually, I DO think Christ knew from the beginning of Creation that He would have to suffer. In the very first book of the Bible, we see talk of Satan striking man's heel, but man crushing his head. Which man ever crushed Satan's head? There's only one...

However, I spoke prematurely about the whole immune system thing. That was really an argument for defense-attack structures in animals. I think people had an immune system in the Garden 1) to separate their bodies from the rest of the world at the cellular level, and 2) to ward off minor illnesses.

 

[KarlMarx]

I swear, if ANY ninnyhammer starts posting to take this threat off topic, they're gonna get a swift 1-day ban!! Sorry to be like that, but this forum in particular seems to be a magnet for morons who love to give their two worthless cents of BS... So don't be a Popinjay....

Three questions regarding the Garden of Eden..

1. Do you believe the Garden was a "perfact state of being" for Adam and Eve - i.e. do you believe there was sickness and death before the fall?

2. If there wasn't sickness then what'd be the point of God creating man with an Immune-system?

3. If there wasn't any death, why do Cats of prey have fangs for ripping flesh?

No, the Garden of Eden was not a perfect place and I don't believe that Adam and Eve were immortal. In fact, the Bible makes mention of The Tree of Life which, if the fruit was eaten, would bestow eternal life. I believe that means that Adam and Eve weren't immortal.

But, whether the Garden of Eden existed or is a fairy tale doesn't matter, in my opinion. The important concept that the tale of the Garden of Eden teaches us is that Man has a fallen nature and that sin is a real force in the world.

People are not good by nature, i.e., if left to do whatever we please with no fear of consequence, we would gravitate towards murder, theft, lying, promiscuity. It is not natural for humans to do good. That is why God is so important, that is why we have society and laws.

God and religion saves us from our true selves. One can argue that religion has killed millions. Over a span of thousands of years, that is true. But as I've shown in the past, atheistic communism and Nazism have killed many more in a mere century.

I have yet to read of a society that tosses God out on His ear then goes on to become a noble one. In fact, societies that have done so, e.g. the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, did not accomplish anything great, except for bringing about war and misery on a mass scale. It seems ignorance seems to follow in the footsteps of vice, have you ever noticed that?

P.S. I also have to wonder. Did some of the notions that we have about the Garden of Eden and Hell come from works inspired by the Bible, e.g. Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost rather than from the Bible itself?

 

[Nienna]

I'm much more inlclined to think of Eden as the place of "perfection" in the sense that it was God's personal handiwork - a Utopia of things being done for Adam and Eve and in the sense that there wasn't sin.

Based on some arguements in this thread, one could tend to believe that sickness is somehow caused by sin...

Hear the word of the LORD, O people of Israel! The LORD has filed a lawsuit against you, saying: "There is no faithfulness, no kindness, no knowledge of God in your land. You curse and lie and kill and steal and commit adultery. There is violence everywhere, with one murder after another. That is WHY your land is not producing. It is filled with sadness, and all living things are becoming sick and dying. Even the animals, birds, and fish have begun to disappear. (Hosea 4: 1-3)

 

[Eightball]

For those that just can't handle the "He isn't bound by time..." comments...........you must understand that the previous statement is a paraphrase of, "foreknowledge" which means, "knowing in advance".

Christ's incarnation and birth in human flesh was also God's voluntary choice to constrain Himself to earthly laws of humanity. That would include sickness, physical injury, threats of physical life by evil entitys, inevitable physical death, and of course........"time".

Scripture explicity says, that God foreknew each one of us, before we were "knitted" in our mother's wombs.....Psalms.

With that, God also sees the beginning, and the outcome of every life.

Time is something us humans can latch onto.....as it means, "limits" to all aspects of our senses........yet "no time" is a realm........that throws us off, just like "infinity". It doesn't register, or make sense.......in the area of investigation and solution with finite beings.

All I know, is that the bible, both in the O.T. and N.T. is filled with references to God's foreknowledge of events.
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Just to boggle one's mind even more, remember that eternity also includes eternal Past, as well as eternal future.

Christ's crucifixion ocurred roughly 2000 years ago, yet the application of what His work on the cross, and His subsequent burial and ressurrection brought about to mankind is applicable to the O.T. folks as well as those of us that live and die 2000 years after the crucifixion.

When Christ said, "It is finished!", He left A.D. 0, and entered timeless eternity. His self imposed humanity to identify 100% with us, and become the perfect, sacrifice for humanity, was finished.

Hey, I don't understand/comprehend eternity......! All I can say in my limited, finite mind's conclusion is that it means, "forever". What is forever? Something that doesn't end. What is something that doesn't end? I can comprehend a continuous, "something" that has no end. I can only "mouth" it, but that's it. I think my brain might explode.:spank3:

A well-know Christian author, Dr. Charles Solomon proposed or presented an interesting angle on "eternity". Most folks always think of "eternity" in terms of going on and on forever into the future. Dr. Solomon, presented the idea or consideration that "eternity" isn't just forward, but also backwards? In other words, in God's realm, without actual time or a beginning to anything, then the "past" is just as eternal as the "future".

So he takes this leap to say that Christ's life, is actually a life that has no beginning(start in the past) and now end(no future point that ends).

When Christ said, "I Am", He immediately evoked the wrath of Pharisees and others who understood completely what he meant by that statement of identity. He was saying He was and is, "now", "before", and "after" eternally.

Remember that a more complete coverage of Jesus's statement in the book of John, was, ""Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham, was I Am." He was saying that He, Jesus was pre-existent, and also post-existent, He was the Alpha and Omega............"First to last".

God wasn't created. He is pre-existent.........He leaps time, He leaps man's past, present, and future, actions of mind, and physicality. That is pre-eminent foreknowledge.

 

[Joz]

I guess it all depends on what is mean't by "perfect." I don't think that they were in a state of bliss all the time. Like RWA said, you have to be able to compare to really understand. I think there were gradations of comfort. Maybe Eve wandered away from Adam for an afternoon. She might have started to feel lonely & a little sad. Maybe she even cried. But, then they were reunited, and could feel their happiness all the better for their separation. There was loneliness, but not the grief that comes when a spouse passes away. And then they could feel the happiness and thankfulness more strongly because of the time they spent apart.

And I don't think they were perfectly physically comfortable all the time. I think they might have caught colds or something, but their bodies being the epitome of health, they were able to fight off the illness; it wouldn't have turned to disease and long suffering.

What would Eve have to be sad about?? And WHY did they have to have something to compare "perfect happiness" to?

Genesis 1:27 says, So God created man in His own image, in the image of God, created He him; male & female created He them.

If man was not in a perfect state then God is not perfect and the Bible is a sham. The same God that created the heavens also created a being worthy of that whch gave him life.
Man's nature was in harmony with the will of God. He was capable of understanding divine things; he had high intellectual powers. His affections were pure & his appetites & passions were under the control of reason.

To suggest anything less robs man of the dignity of his beginning.