To Bible-reading Christians...

[-Cp]

I swear, if ANY ninnyhammer starts posting to take this threat off topic, they're gonna get a swift 1-day ban!! Sorry to be like that, but this forum in particular seems to be a magnet for morons who love to give their two worthless cents of BS... So don't be a Popinjay....

Three questions regarding the Garden of Eden..

1. Do you believe the Garden was a "perfact state of being" for Adam and Eve - i.e. do you believe there was sickness and death before the fall?

2. If there wasn't sickness then what'd be the point of God creating man with an Immune-system?

3. If there wasn't any death, why do Cats of prey have fangs for ripping flesh?

 

[Nienna]

I swear, if ANY ninnyhammer starts posting to take this threat off topic, they're gonna get a swift 1-day ban!! Sorry to be like that, but this forum in particular seems to be a magnet for morons who love to give their two worthless cents of BS... So don't be a Popinjay....

I'll do my best to stay on topic, Sir.

Three questions regarding the Garden of Eden..

1. Do you believe the Garden was a "perfact state of being" for Adam and Eve - i.e. do you believe there was sickness and death before the fall?

Yes. If by "death" you mean no death of nephesh chayyah (breathing creatures, also conveys the idea of consciousness). People and animals were given plants to eat; therefore, plants "died." Also, single-celled creatures, perhaps worms, etc.

2. If there wasn't sickness then what'd be the point of God creating man with an Immune-system?

One important function of the immune system is to determine what is "me" and what is "not me." My immune system will attack cells that are "not me." The immune system serves as a border separating the human from the rest of the world at the cellular level.

3. If there wasn't any death, why do Cats of prey have fangs for ripping flesh?

Why do you say that fangs are for ripping flesh? Certainly, that is what some animals use them for today. However, think about the panda; it has fang-like teeth, yet its diet consists mostly of bamboo. Also the fruit bat--- fang-like teeth, yet it eats fruit. Just because an animal has sharp teeth doesn't mean those teeth were designed for eating flesh. It just means the animal has sharp teeth.


Cp, I highly recommend The Answers Book, published by Master Books. http://shop5.gospelcom.net/epages/A...7ce271d45579e790693/Product/View/10&2D2&2D001

Very easy to read, broken into segmants that answer, in detail, the 20 most-asked questions about creation science.

 

[dmp]

Nienna is brilliant...like the sun.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The garden was cool, but it was probably boring. You never value a hot shower as much until you had your gas cutoff and take cold ones for a while. That's a real eyeopener. If you just think of the warmth of the clothes you put on afterward it helps. Materialization is visualization.

 

[Nienna]

The garden was cool, but it was probably boring. You never value a hot shower as much until you had your gas cutoff and take cold ones for a while. That's a real eyeopener. If you just think of the warmth of the clothes you put on afterward it helps. Materialization is visualization.

So you think things can only be interesting if evil is involved? I personally don't think the Garden was perfectly comfortable all the time. There had to be gradations of comfort. For instance, being hungry isn't comfortable, but there was fruit there to assuage the discomfort. I think there was hunger, but not starvation; illness (like a head cold), but not disease; wearing of the body, but renewal to ward off aging. Like that.

Of course, that's just my surmise.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So you think things can only be interesting if evil is involved? I personally don't think the Garden was perfectly comfortable all the time. There had to be gradations of comfort. For instance, being hungry isn't comfortable, but there was fruit there to assuage the discomfort. I think there was hunger, but not starvation; illness (like a head cold), but not disease; wearing of the body, but renewal to ward off aging. Like that.

Of course, that's just my surmise.

I didn't say anything about evil. Where'd you get that? I too think there is still hunger in the garden. But is there ease? Is the hunger satisfied by simply reaching out and grasping the bounty? We are not tested when life is easy. The question is, will we love each other and god when the going gets tough. To test us, we had to be put out, or rather, we chose to be tested? Why did eve eat the fruit? satan or something. Oh well. You get the drift.

 

[Joz]

So you think things can only be interesting if evil is involved? I personally don't think the Garden was perfectly comfortable all the time. There had to be gradations of comfort. For instance, being hungry isn't comfortable, but there was fruit there to assuage the discomfort. I think there was hunger, but not starvation; illness (like a head cold), but not disease; wearing of the body, but renewal to ward off aging. Like that.

Of course, that's just my surmise.

The garden was cool, but it was probably boring........To test us, we had to be put out, or rather, we chose to be tested? Why did eve eat the fruit? satan or something. Oh well. You get the drift.

Adam & Eve were given work. They were to maintain the Garden, whatever that entailed. Not until sin did man have to sweat & toil in his labor for survival.

The "test" came before being put out of the Garden. THAT was the result of the test. Because Satan wanted to be as God, and because he accused God of His "control", Adam & Eve HAD to be "tested" for obedience. And they failed.

Food , for whatever reason, consisted of eating from the Tree of Life. There was resting, but there was no need for sleep. I do not believe there was any illness, disease, tears, bruises, cuts, scrapes, anything like that, because that is the result of sin. Not until they were expelled from the Garden would these have occured.

 

[-Cp]

I do not believe there was any illness, disease, tears, bruises, cuts, scrapes, anything like that, because that is the result of sin. Not until they were expelled from the Garden would these have occured.

Why would God bother making Adam and Eve with an advanced immune system that can fight-off sickness if there was to be no sickness before the fall?

 

[Mr. P]

Three questions regarding the Garden of Eden..

1. Do you believe the Garden was a "perfact state of being" for Adam and Eve

Only symbolically.

- i.e. do you believe there was sickness and death before the fall?

Yes, there was sickness and death..

2. If there wasn't sickness then what'd be the point of God creating man with an Immune-system?

Immune-systems evolve.

3. If there wasn't any death, why do Cats of prey have fangs for ripping flesh?

Why do you have teeth, to eat maybe?

 

[manu1959]

being a Presbyterian

we are taught that the bible was written as parables to teach

the garden of Eden was the time of the dawn of the consciousness of man .... peace an harmony reigned initially and all living things that are now were then .... the fall created nothing new .... except that man is not perfect and that life will be a struggle to attain peace and harmony

 

[Nienna]

Adam & Eve were given work. They were to maintain the Garden, whatever that entailed. Not until sin did man have to sweat & toil in his labor for survival.

The "test" came before being put out of the Garden. THAT was the result of the test. Because Satan wanted to be as God, and because he accused God of His "control", Adam & Eve HAD to be "tested" for obedience. And they failed.

I agree with you on all of this.

Food , for whatever reason, consisted of eating from the Tree of Life.

No, they were allowed to eat from any of the trees in the Garden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. When they were cast out of the Garden, God sent an angel to guard it, so Adam & Eve could not eat from the Tree of Life.

There was resting, but there was no need for sleep.

I don't think it actually mentions regular sleep, but I believe people did sleep. It does say that Adam was put into a deep sleep when his rib was removed.

I do not believe there was any illness, disease, tears, bruises, cuts, scrapes, anything like that, because that is the result of sin. Not until they were expelled from the Garden would these have occured.

I think there was illness but not disease, tears & sadness, but not grief. I don't know about cuts, bruises, etc.

 

[Eightball]

Why would God bother making Adam and Eve with an advanced immune system that can fight-off sickness if there was to be no sickness before the fall?

CP:

I know this is conjecture, but is it possible, yet unproveable, that when Adam and Eve were sent out of Eden that, God at that time equipped them bodily with a immune/defense system? Maybe they even had these unneeded things even at the time of their creation?

Might that also be similarly the way that all of these creatures might have acquired their flesh eating tools..i.e. claws, fangs, poisonous stingers, venemous equipment?
*
One thing I've learned in my scripture studies is that when God is silent on a subject, it doesn't mean that "nothing" ocurred.
*
With that in mind, I do remember that man had to clothe himself with skins of animals upon their exited life, out of the Garden. Skins, meant something had to lose it life for those skins. So man also became in need of new things upon entering a fallen world, where wars, survivalist life of the animal world, sickness, disease, hazards of all kinds were now the norm.
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It seems that the O.T. account after the exit from the Garden is not a time of God's detachment from Adam, Eve and prodigeny, but, a continuing watchful, and interventioning Father, even though the comforts of the Garden were lost.
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Although the need for an immune system was not necessar in the Garden, how could it be difficult for the Creator of the universe to equip his children with one after or even in advance.
*
Since God is omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, I would assume that He foreknew the Fall of man in the Garden. Then if God foreknew the "fall" then God could have equipped the first man with an immune system, before his exit from the garden.

This also could be the case with the fanged creatures. They had them(fangs, hunting claws) upon originally being created, but had no need of them. When they left the confines of the Garden and had to survive without Adam bringing their daily ration of Purina, they had the equipment to access/obtain their food.
*
I don't think God does things happen-chance, or last minute......but as all knowing and not being bound by time, He foresees the outcome of all lives/events and can knit humans and all creatures in the womb with the best tools to cope.
*
People still ponder why us humans have appendixes. Medical science still hasn't come up with conclusive reasons or a reason.
http://tjsamson.client.web-health.com/web-health/topics/GeneralHealth/generalhealthsub/generalhealth/immune&allergy/what_appendix.html
What is the appendix?
The appendix is a small pouch off of the side of the large intestine.

The region of the intestine where the appendix is located lies on the lower right side of the abdomen.

What does the appendix do?
The appendix contains lymphoid tissue (cells of the immune system).

Nevertheless, if a person has his appendix taken out, his health will not suffer.

Why isn't the appendix needed?
The appendix is not critical because the body also contains numerous other areas of lymphoid tissue, including the lymph nodes, spleen, tonsils and adenoids.

Like the appendix, some of these lymphoid tissues are situated in places where substances can cross the skin into the body—the respiratory tract and the and digestive tract. Collections of lymphoid tissue in the colon known as "Peyer's patches" duplicate the role of the appendix in the intestine.

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God is so big, that nothing escapes his observation, or attention. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The "tomorrow" part is great. That means that he can plan out everything for us humans, in the immune protection department, and other areas of concern, because He already knows we are going to get the "boot" out of the Garden. He wasn't surprised at our disobedience, and why should He be caught off by the need for an immune system, or any physical need or attribute to his created animal world that would benefit their survival in this new fallen world?

 

[Nienna]

Why would God bother making Adam and Eve with an advanced immune system that can fight-off sickness if there was to be no sickness before the fall?

I have read about 3 positions on the answer to this question:

1) The immune system had a different function before the Fall.
2) The immune system was present but latent pre-Fall, because God knew in advance that it would be needed.
3) God added the immune system after the Fall.

I tend to believe either 1 or 2, or maybe both.

 

[Nienna]

People still ponder why us humans have appendixes. Medical science still hasn't come up with conclusive reasons or a reason.

Actually, it is now known that the human appedix contains lymphatic tissue and helps control bacteria entering the intestines.

 

[Joz]

No, they were allowed to eat from any of the trees in the Garden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. When they were cast out of the Garden, God sent an angel to guard it, so Adam & Eve could not eat from the Tree of Life.

I agree. I 'm sorry I didn't make my comment clearer.

 

[Annie]

I agree with you on all of this.

No, they were allowed to eat from any of the trees in the Garden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. When they were cast out of the Garden, God sent an angel to guard it, so Adam & Eve could not eat from the Tree of Life.

I don't think it actually mentions regular sleep, but I believe people did sleep. It does say that Adam was put into a deep sleep when his rib was removed.

I think there was illness but not disease, tears & sadness, but not grief. I don't know about cuts, bruises, etc.

Basically I agree with your interpretation, the exception perhaps and only perhaps, regarding the 'rib' and sleep. Being a person of 'interpretative view' I think this may be a case where a 'situation' was involved to explain a larger issue. With that caveat, I agree.

 

[Joz]

I think there was illness but not disease, tears & sadness, but not grief. I don't know about cuts, bruises, etc.

Explain this to me.
How could there have been illness in a perfect world? And why would there have been a need for tears? What would have been the cause?

 

[Nienna]

Explain this to me.
How could there have been illness in a perfect world? And why would there have been a need for tears? What would have been the cause?

I guess it all depends on what is mean't by "perfect." I don't think that they were in a state of bliss all the time. Like RWA said, you have to be able to compare to really understand. I think there were gradations of comfort. Maybe Eve wandered away from Adam for an afternoon. She might have started to feel lonely & a little sad. Maybe she even cried. But, then they were reunited, and could feel their happiness all the better for their separation. There was loneliness, but not the grief that comes when a spouse passes away. And then they could feel the happiness and thankfulness more strongly because of the time they spent apart.

And I don't think they were perfectly physically comfortable all the time. I think they might have caught colds or something, but their bodies being the epitome of health, they were able to fight off the illness; it wouldn't have turned to disease and long suffering.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't think it was perfect in the way most people normally think about it. Nothing can truly be enjoyable without hardship. Possessions lose their meaning if they are not earned. I think there was definitely 'discomfort,' but nothing truly horriffic like plagues and death and such.

 

[-Cp]

I have read about 3 positions on the answer to this question:

1) The immune system had a different function before the Fall.
2) The immune system was present but latent pre-Fall, because God knew in advance that it would be needed.
3) God added the immune system after the Fall.

I tend to believe either 1 or 2, or maybe both.

So.. how many things happened before Creation because "God knew they'd happen"?

Do you think Christ was really up in Heaven going "FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY! NOW THAT MY FATHER CREATED MAN, I'M GONNA HAVE TO GO SUFFER!!!"

I see folks frequently say things such as "because God isn't bound by time blah blah blah..." - where does it say in SCRIPTURE that he isn't bound by time - even if by his own choice and soveriegnty?