Zone1 The word Catholic is not in the Bible. Once Saved Always Saved is not there either

[forkintheroad7]

If you believe the true church is outside of the Vatican, that's a good start. Of course, most people are ignorant of what you believe. How could they possibly know. This is true of many disciplines. Some are so far ahead in their thinking and knowledge that few can catch up.

Well, I'm so surprised by what you say here, I don't know how to respond. But I'll recover from the shock in a minute or 2..

OK... If a person wants to know what I (and few others) know, he can get a low-cost book (600 pages, large print.) from Most Holy Family Monastery called

The Truth About What Really Happened to the Catholic Church After Vatican II

It leaves no stone un-turned. I disagree w/ one or 2 things the authors say, but they are totally correct on most things. One thing I disagree with:

They teach (or did in 2007) that one should not attend a novus ordo Mass, which if you don't know what that means, it means any Mass you find at your local Catholic Church-- Some priests are more conservative than others. If the priest accepts all this "being gay is OK" baloney, don't go to his Church! The Real Presence of Christ is there in (most?) Catholic Churches, so that's why I would never tell someone not to attend. You just have to be careful about... not too Christian-like priests and parishioners..

I can't even remember the other thing I didn't automatically agree w/ the authors on.. so it must not be important... I was just very happy to find these people who answered questions I had had all my life but never knew where to find them..

 

[forkintheroad7]

Jesus was likely referring to the world during the church age. Most will have their opportunity for life during the millennial reign of Christ. OTOH maybe they will just die away forever. TBD.

Jesus was not one to address issues faced in his own age but not others. He spoke to the entire world in everything or virtually everything He said. He did say things to Peter, the first Pope, that applied strictly to him, and also you could say that about the 12, but those who love Jesus listen to all He said.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I don't get how people can believe Once Saved Always Saved and claim it is in the Bible. Not only are those words NOT there, the implication isn't there either but people claim it is.. they talk about the thief who died and Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise (the day He died). Well, Paradise is not necessarily Heaven. I heard it explained by a theologian once who said that but I've forgotten the explanation. However, even if the thief went to Heaven (I mean, the guy was in Christ's Actual Presence! How could he not? but maybe he didn't...) that does not mean that we who go on living do not have to work for the Kingdom, that we are saved even if we do nothing!

That's insane... and again, the Bible says we are Judged by our deeds. I've read the entire thing and had it read TO me at Mass for years and years. And no, the Bible has not been butchered, has largely kept the original meaning through the centuries.. although the JW Bible is not the same as the others and etc... etc...

Almost every Book in the Bible has something about how we are Judged by our deeds, esp Revelation

 

[Foxfyre]

"Roman" is the distinction. The RCC is the continuation of the medieval Roman church, papacy, and all things Roman.

That's my understanding too.

Indeed catholic (small 'c') does indeed mean universal in theology speak. The RCC history can be somewhat ambiguous, but most historians place the official beginning of the RCC with the election of Pope Gregory 1 in the late sixth century. By that time the church has already become more powerful and influential than the Roman Senate was when it dissolved in the early sixth century. The church heirarchy was already established in Rome. Gregory would be the first to have significant papal powers over the entire church organization.

But the RCC did not become recognized as a significant separate denomination until I think the Eleventh Century with the final division between the east and west church, a schism that has never been repaired.

The RCC can be credited with, along with Monarchs and feudal lords who paired their powers with it, keeping Christianity an expanding and powerful influence in the world during a time it might otherwise have been suppressed into near extinction. It did not establish a 'once saved always saved' doctrine however. Salvation was considered being in the Church itself. And the Church could rescind that salvation via power of excommunication.

Jesus did suggest a 'catholic' (little 'c') church however made up of all believers without distinction of sect or denomination. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

 

[ninja007]

Yeh, Protestants are not terribly self-aware much of the time. I've met some open minded ones, and they were a joy to behold. Too bad I didn't get contact info from this one I'm thinking of, which was something like 6 years ago.

But anyhow, they do the following (anti-Catholic protesters, that is):

1) accuse Catholics of following the pope and not Jesus. Then they quote their pastor's talking points ad nauseum instead of thinking for themselves/interpreting scripture for themselves...

2) bring up the Inquisition incessantly (which they never seem to fully understand) and act like Catholics did horrible things to people (most of which stories are false), but conveniently forget (or don't bother to learn in the first place) that Protestants in history murdered Catholics just for celebrating Mass..

3) claim to go by the Bible but believe things that are (surprise, surprise) not in the Bible

As to that last, I mostly speak of Once Saved Always Saved, which if one believes and lives by that false doctrine, one will end up in Hell. That's because all through the Bible, which I have actually read, it says we will be judged by our actions. Read the Book of Revelation. Luther was the idiot who came up with this "sin all you want, you can't lose your salvation" garbage...

So they follow a man and not Jesus, which is what they accuse Catholics of...

John 10:28-29 (KJV):
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"

 

[ninja007]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Quantrill]

I don't get how people can believe Once Saved Always Saved and claim it is in the Bible. Not only are those words NOT there, the implication isn't there either but people claim it is.. they talk about the thief who died and Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise (the day He died). Well, Paradise is not necessarily Heaven. I heard it explained by a theologian once who said that but I've forgotten the explanation. However, even if the thief went to Heaven (I mean, the guy was in Christ's Actual Presence! How could he not? but maybe he didn't...) that does not mean that we who go on living do not have to work for the Kingdom, that we are saved even if we do nothing!

That's insane... and again, the Bible says we are Judged by our deeds. I've read the entire thing and had it read TO me at Mass for years and years. And no, the Bible has not been butchered, has largely kept the original meaning through the centuries.. although the JW Bible is not the same as the others and etc... etc...

Almost every Book in the Bible has something about how we are Judged by our deeds, esp Revelation

I don't believe the 'thief on the Cross' is evidence of 'once saved always saved'. Why? Because the thief on the Cross wasn't saved till he expressed his faith in Christ while on the Cross. At first both he and the other man on the Cross mocked Jesus.

(Mark 15:32) "...And they that were crucified with him reviled him."

(Matt. 27:43-44) "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified wih him, cast the same in his teeth."

But then, one of the thieves said, (Luke 23:42-43) "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom..."

I think it more evidence of the truth of death bed confessions. Not to say all are true faith, but many may well be.

Those who believe in the 'Security of the Believer' often called 'once saved always saved' do not teach that once you are saved you are free to sin as much as you want. That is heresy of the first order. But we do acknowledge that the believer is still a sinner and those sins must be addressed. The Roman Church acknowledges the same which is why they have such doctrines as confession and the sacrements and even purgatory.

Those who believe in the 'Security of the Believer' believe Christ Sacrifice alone has paid for all sin. And when one believes he is born-again and 'In Christ', his whole life is 'under the Blood'. Forever.

Forever, throughout all eternity, we are 'saved sinners'. In Heaven we are 'saved sinners'. There will never be a time in eternity when we do not need the Blood of Christ. Do you believe that?

Quantrill

 

[Woodznutz]

Well, I'm so surprised by what you say here, I don't know how to respond. But I'll recover from the shock in a minute or 2..

OK... If a person wants to know what I (and few others) know, he can get a low-cost book (600 pages, large print.) from Most Holy Family Monastery called

The Truth About What Really Happened to the Catholic Church After Vatican II

It leaves no stone un-turned. I disagree w/ one or 2 things the authors say, but they are totally correct on most things. One thing I disagree with:

They teach (or did in 2007) that one should not attend a novus ordo Mass, which if you don't know what that means, it means any Mass you find at your local Catholic Church-- Some priests are more conservative than others. If the priest accepts all this "being gay is OK" baloney, don't go to his Church! The Real Presence of Christ is there in (most?) Catholic Churches, so that's why I would never tell someone not to attend. You just have to be careful about... not too Christian-like priests and parishioners..

I can't even remember the other thing I didn't automatically agree w/ the authors on.. so it must not be important... I was just very happy to find these people who answered questions I had had all my life but never knew where to find them..

I don't get how people can believe Once Saved Always Saved and claim it is in the Bible. Not only are those words NOT there, the implication isn't there either but people claim it is.. they talk about the thief who died and Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise (the day He died). Well, Paradise is not necessarily Heaven. I heard it explained by a theologian once who said that but I've forgotten the explanation. However, even if the thief went to Heaven (I mean, the guy was in Christ's Actual Presence! How could he not? but maybe he didn't...) that does not mean that we who go on living do not have to work for the Kingdom, that we are saved even if we do nothing!

That's insane... and again, the Bible says we are Judged by our deeds. I've read the entire thing and had it read TO me at Mass for years and years. And no, the Bible has not been butchered, has largely kept the original meaning through the centuries.. although the JW Bible is not the same as the others and etc... etc...

Almost every Book in the Bible has something about how we are Judged by our deeds, esp Revelation

I believe the "paradise" Jesus referred to is the restored 'Edenlike' earth during millennium. The thief (both actually) will come up in the general resurrection and be with Christ (in his presence).

 

[Woodznutz]

Jesus was not one to address issues faced in his own age but not others. He spoke to the entire world in everything or virtually everything He said. He did say things to Peter, the first Pope, that applied strictly to him, and also you could say that about the 12, but those who love Jesus listen to all He said.

To me the most notable and important thing Jesus every said was "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." So, while his message was universal his ministry was quite narrow. Noteworthy as well is that he also sent the disciples to the same 'lost sheep'.

 

[Woodznutz]

That's my understanding too.

Indeed catholic (small 'c') does indeed mean universal in theology speak. The RCC history can be somewhat ambiguous, but most historians place the official beginning of the RCC with the election of Pope Gregory 1 in the late sixth century. By that time the church has already become more powerful and influential than the Roman Senate was when it dissolved in the early sixth century. The church heirarchy was already established in Rome. Gregory would be the first to have significant papal powers over the entire church organization.

But the RCC did not become recognized as a significant separate denomination until I think the Eleventh Century with the final division between the east and west church, a schism that has never been repaired.

The RCC can be credited with, along with Monarchs and feudal lords who paired their powers with it, keeping Christianity an expanding and powerful influence in the world during a time it might otherwise have been suppressed into near extinction. It did not establish a 'once saved always saved' doctrine however. Salvation was considered being in the Church itself. And the Church could rescind that salvation via power of excommunication.

Jesus did suggest a 'catholic' (little 'c') church however made up of all believers without distinction of sect or denomination. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

I take the "whosoever" to mean those resurrested during the millennium.

 

[Foxfyre]

I take the "whosoever" to mean those resurrested during the millennium.

Yes. Many different concepts are presented re that too. I respect your belief on that though I can't say I really share it.

We'll find out when we get there. Once more I say I think when we meet in heaven, we'll all get a good laugh about how much of all this we got wrong.

 

[Woodznutz]

I take the "whosoever" to mean those resurrected during the millennium.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Forever, throughout all eternity, we are 'saved sinners'. In Heaven we are 'saved sinners'. There will never be a time in eternity when we do not need the Blood of Christ. Do you believe that?

Quantrill

No, I don't. And I'm not being snarky against you but plenty of people say "I'm a sinner" as though they are proud of it. Again, I'm not accusing you -- I barely know you, but it grates on my nerves sometimes (even though it is true). We are to give up whatever sin we find in ourselves... obviously not as easily done as said. But Jesus said that we would be held to account for "every idle word." People just take their sins lightly whereas God does not. I never could fully understand the story of Oza (or Uzzah) where he reached out to stead the Ark of the Covenant which only the Levite (priests) were to touch, and God killed him on the spot. I mean, he was only trying to keep it from tipping over! But when God says to do or not do something... we are to obey regardless.

 

[forkintheroad7]

To me the most notable and important thing Jesus every said was "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." So, while his message was universal his ministry was quite narrow. Noteworthy as well is that he also sent the disciples to the same 'lost sheep'.

Jesus was sent to the Jews but His apostles, like Paul, went to the Gentiles, as Jesus said to spread the Gospel to everyone.

I say the most important thing Jesus said - or one of them, I should say - is Mt 25:31-46

Basically, that if you don't treat "the least of" His people well (feed the needy, etc) you will end up in Hell ("eternal punishment").

And again, the Bible throughout says we are judged by what we DO, not what we believe or claim to believe. If you really believe in Jesus, you will do what He says...

which is another scripture "If you love Me you will keep My commandments"

 

[Quantrill]

No, I don't. And I'm not being snarky against you but plenty of people say "I'm a sinner" as though they are proud of it. Again, I'm not accusing you -- I barely know you, but it grates on my nerves sometimes (even though it is true). We are to give up whatever sin we find in ourselves... obviously not as easily done as said. But Jesus said that we would be held to account for "every idle word." People just take their sins lightly whereas God does not. I never could fully understand the story of Oza (or Uzzah) where he reached out to stead the Ark of the Covenant which only the Levite (priests) were to touch, and God killed him on the spot. I mean, he was only trying to keep it from tipping over! But when God says to do or not do something... we are to obey regardless.

You said, 'No, I don't'. But you didn't say why?

When does it occur that we as believers no longer need the blood of Jesus Christ?

Quantrill

 

[forkintheroad7]

God does not tell us to do the impossible. We can give up our "little" sins as well as the big ones.

But it takes a lot of time and effort. The thing is, God will help us and if we are not as perfect as He would like when we die, maybe He will... well, who knows... but that is why Purgatory is necessary (and yes, it is biblical... Mt 18:23, etc..).

If someones dies too soon ... maybe some demonically possessed person kills her on the train on her way home from work... God gives that person more time to "work out [her] salvation with fear and trembling" Phil 2:12.

God is just. He knows we need time

 

[forkintheroad7]

You said, 'No, I don't'. But you didn't say why?

When does it occur that we as believers no longer need the blood of Jesus Christ?

Quantrill

I'm not going to respond if you keep putting words in my mouth...

 

[Quantrill]

I'm not going to respond if you keep putting words in my mouth...

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said, 'No, I don't'.

So, what's the problem...other then you don't want to own up to what you said?

Quantrill

 

[forkintheroad7]

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said, 'No, I don't'.

So, what's the problem...other then you don't want to own up to what you said?

Quantrill

Goodbye

You love games rather than seeking truth

 

[forkintheroad7]

The RCC is hated by many because of its history, past and recent. It is still the "image" of the "beast" in structure and grandeur. The pedophilia of the celibate priesthood is abhorrent.

It's very hypocritical of Protestants to bring up Catholic Church history. It's saying that Catholics are big sinners but they are not.

Right.

Catholics actually sin much less than Protestants because they actually believe we are judged by our actions, which we are according to SCRIPTURE

Jesus said that unless we do penance, we will perish (in Hell). Lk 13:3

Protestants do not do penance. They think they are forgiven and cleansed of the residue left by their sin (assuming they believe there IS any residue) as soon as they say, "Sorry, God."

Well, that is just not so. They are disobeying Jesus when they ignore doing penance.