Zone1 The sin that causes the most souls to be lost

[hadit]

Do you. I find it interesting the events you select to "prove" your point. As I said. Research.

It's pretty simple. You want to excuse the CC for the atrocities committed during the Reformation and I'm not buying it, because I'm not aware of the CC doing anything to stop the persecution, or even speaking against it. In fact, I believe the church itself instigated and carried out the persecution against the "heretics", and I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

 

[Meriweather]

It's pretty simple. You want to excuse the CC for the atrocities committed during the Reformation and I'm not buying it, because I'm not aware of the CC doing anything to stop the persecution, or even speaking against it. In fact, I believe the church itself instigated and carried out the persecution against the "heretics", and I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

Sigh. No, I could not care less about excusing wrong-doing. What I care about is proper perspective. I care about history and learning from history properly. You only want a good guy and a bad guy. Fine. You found your good guy and your bad guy. Any other information is superfluous to you because you do not care about the all the intricacies, all the interweaving, all those on the periphery who were using various situations for their own ends.

No one is perfect, let alone perfectly altruistic. Tragedy often results from good intentions. Toss greed, selfishness, self-interests on all they many sides into the mix along with none of these sides admitting any wrongs. No matter how well intention each of the various sides, what we are left with is death--and new life springing from death's ashes. Afterwards, when all survey the mess that had so many contributors, a single scapegoat is selected to bear the wrongdoings of all. Shrug.

You have your scapegoat. Be at peace.

 

[hadit]

Sigh. No, I could not care less about excusing wrong-doing. What I care about is proper perspective. I care about history and learning from history properly. You only want a good guy and a bad guy. Fine. You found your good guy and your bad guy. Any other information is superfluous to you because you do not care about the all the intricacies, all the interweaving, all those on the periphery who were using various situations for their own ends.

No one is perfect, let alone perfectly altruistic. Tragedy often results from good intentions. Toss greed, selfishness, self-interests on all they many sides into the mix along with none of these sides admitting any wrongs. No matter how well intention each of the various sides, what we are left with is death--and new life springing from death's ashes. Afterwards, when all survey the mess that had so many contributors, a single scapegoat is selected to bear the wrongdoings of all. Shrug.

You have your scapegoat. Be at peace.

So, returning to where this all started, this is the quote from your now silent compatriot:

"Anything about the Catholic Church is totally distorted or a huge lie.. Jesus said His followers would be hated and boy, are they hated! Nothing is more hated in the world than the CC"

First, I would argue that the Jews have suffered a whole LOT more hate throughout world history than has the CC.

Now, it seems to me that your compatriot, wonder where he/she got to, anyway, is declaring the CC to above all criticism because, apparently, all criticism is lies. I was pointing out to him/her that, far from that being true, the CC is indeed deserving of some harsh criticism. When he/she went silent, you jumped in (how coincidental), and seem completely unable to criticize the CC leadership for anything. In fact, your reaction to all of the abuse done in the Reformation can be summed up in your one word, "Shrug".

Okay, last chance. Did the CC leadership participate in the abuses during the Reformation. If yes, where is your criticism? If no, did they stand against the abuse and try to stop it, since it was being done in their name? If no, where is your criticism? If yes, please document such an outcry and the results. If Church leaders are only human and make mistakes, then we need to call them on those mistakes to keep the Church as free from corruption as possible. I'm saying that the CC of the Reformation era was hopelessly corrupt, entangled with government power, and responsible for the persecution. Whether solely or in concert with government is irrelevant, and all you can muster is "Shrug". Do you not see the problem here?

Are you trying to say that the Protestants and Anabaptists of that era were CAUSING their persecution, that they somehow DESERVED it, because you don't want "a single scapegoat" to be the Catholic Church? Tell me, what "wrongs" did the Protestants and Anabaptists commit?

 

[Meriweather]

"Anything about the Catholic Church is totally distorted or a huge lie.. Jesus said His followers would be hated and boy, are they hated! Nothing is more hated in the world than the CC"

First, I would argue that the Jews have suffered a whole LOT more hate throughout world history than has the CC.

Very well. So what?

 

[Meriweather]

Now, it seems to me that your compatriot, wonder where he/she got to, anyway, is declaring the CC to above all criticism because, apparently, all criticism is lies. I was pointing out to him/her that, far from that being true, the CC is indeed deserving of some harsh criticism. When he/she went silent, you jumped in (how coincidental), and seem completely unable to criticize the CC leadership for anything. In fact, your reaction to all of the abuse done in the Reformation can be summed up in your one word, "Shrug".

Spend a few years studying the Reformation and the Enlightenment and society/cultures of the time. In depth, it is fascinating. In the shallows it's ho-hum. People go into the shallows with ready-formed conclusions looking for bits and pieces that agree with their conclusion. There was so much more going on.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Now, it seems to me that your compatriot, wonder where he/she got to, anyway, is declaring the CC to above all criticism because,

I stopped at the first KNOWN

LIE

I came to..

and since I hate lying, I am not going to fill my brain with trash by reading the rest of your not-in-good-faith post.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Spend a few years studying the Reformation and the Enlightenment and society/cultures of the time. In depth, it is fascinating. In the shallows it's ho-hum. People go into the shallows with ready-formed conclusions looking for bits and pieces that agree with their conclusion. There was so much more going on.

you forgot an important word

not just Conclusion.. but preconceived conclusion. They have already made up their minds about the CC and no one will ever disabuse them of their albeit ignorant conclusions

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, last chance. Did the CC leadership participate in the abuses during the Reformation. If yes, where is your criticism? If no, did they stand against the abuse and try to stop it, since it was being done in their name? If no, where is your criticism? If yes, please document such an outcry and the results. If Church leaders are only human and make mistakes, then we need to call them on those mistakes to keep the Church as free from corruption as possible. I'm saying that the CC of the Reformation era was hopelessly corrupt, entangled with government power, and responsible for the persecution. Whether solely or in concert with government is irrelevant, and all you can muster is "Shrug". Do you not see the problem here?

As I said before, do your own research. Study ALL angles of every group and institution. What did each set in motion, what were the goals of each group and its participants? What did each hope to gain, who was defending against what.

As far as corruption...ever hear of the Counter Reformation? Those words should assure you that Catholics (both leaders and common folk) saw wrong-doing/corruption and worked to fix what was wrong.

I am not saying, nor have I ever said, there is, was, or ever will be no corruption. In fact, I have often repeated my stance. One-twelfth of Jesus' Apostles went badly astray. I doubt any generation improved--which means today there are about 110 million Catholics (1/12th the Catholic population) doing wrong or involved in corruption. If you want to dig into all of that, have at it. My interest is in the lives of the approximately one billion other Catholics who endeavor in being faithful disciples of Christ.

There are two paths, here. Follow Judas around, note everything he did wrong, and argue Judas is the prime reason no one should follow Christ. Or, follow Christ and give little attention to Judas (which is all he deserves). Can you understand my point?

 

[Meriweather]

Are you trying to say that the Protestants and Anabaptists of that era were CAUSING

No. I am far from saying any such thing.

 

[hadit]

I stopped at the first KNOWN

LIE

I came to..

and since I hate lying, I am not going to fill my brain with trash by reading the rest of your not-in-good-faith post.

Oh, I get it, an excuse to avoid talking about the abuses the corrupt CC of the Middle Ages committed.

 

[hadit]

As I said before, do your own research. Study ALL angles of every group and institution. What did each set in motion, what were the goals of each group and its participants? What did each hope to gain, who was defending against what.

As far as corruption...ever hear of the Counter Reformation? Those words should assure you that Catholics (both leaders and common folk) saw wrong-doing/corruption and worked to fix what was wrong.

I am not saying, nor have I ever said, there is, was, or ever will be no corruption. In fact, I have often repeated my stance. One-twelfth of Jesus' Apostles went badly astray. I doubt any generation improved--which means today there are about 110 million Catholics (1/12th the Catholic population) doing wrong or involved in corruption. If you want to dig into all of that, have at it. My interest is in the lives of the approximately one billion other Catholics who endeavor in being faithful disciples of Christ.

There are two paths, here. Follow Judas around, note everything he did wrong, and argue Judas is the prime reason no one should follow Christ. Or, follow Christ and give little attention to Judas (which is all he deserves). Can you understand my point?

I certainly understand your point, which is, if I understand you correctly, that the faithful are trying their best to follow what they've been taught and that there will always be wolves in every flock. That wasn't my point. I was pointing out to your compatriot that his rant about every criticism of the CC being a lie is a lie in itself. Can you understand my point?

 

[Ivan88]

The word marriage is not a Biblical word. The Bible says Abraham took Keturuah.
Took is the word that was well used Biblically.
The word for female is nequebah, meaning pierced. The Apostle Paul said woman was/is made for Man.
Today, marriage is basically legalized commercial sex.

 

[Meriweather]

That wasn't my point. I was pointing out to your compatriot that his rant about every criticism of the CC being a lie is a lie in itself. Can you understand my point?

I do. However, as I understand notmyfault2020, that point is more along the lines of "Catholics worship Mary" or the "Rosary prayer is against scripture" or "Catholics view the Pope as personally infallible." Fact: Catholics do not worship Mary; the Rosary prayers are for meditation of Christ's entire life; Papal rulings (there have been two in the course of the entire papacy) are what are considerable infallible (meaning irreversible).

If someone wants to criticize a current practice of the Catholic Church, it would be nice if the criticism was about an actual Catholic practice, not something fabricated and then labeled "Catholic."

Here are some examples of what Catholics practice that others may not be in line with:

1. Should Catholics be obligated to attend Sunday Mass?
2. Does the Catholic Eucharist (Communion) become Christ's true body and blood?
3. Is the Catholic practice of praying for those who have passed on of actual help to the deceased?
4. Is baptizing babies (a Catholic practice) better left to when they are older?
5. While Catholics do not worship statuary, should that much artwork be present in a place of worship?
6. Why do very serious Catholics choose not to use use artificial birth control?
7. Why does the Catholic Church make sure that the entire Bible is covered at Sunday Mass over the course of every three years (and once a year for daily Mass)? Should they spend that much time on the Old Testament?

I am sure there are more thoughtful questions, where Catholics have do not have to begin the reply with, "That is not, nor ever has been, a Catholic practice..."

 

[Stann]

Canonized saints say that most people lose their souls over sexual immorality than any other sin. That makes sense. The Bible says something about how sin is bad but the one who commits sexual immorality sins against his very body. Actually, I think all sins or most do that but the point is, it is worse with sexual immorality.

2nd to that, the saints say is Lack of Charity

It figures the novus ordo Church never even mentions this as being a mortal sin, to speak of. I did go to a pretty good NO Church some months ago that had one of those fliers nearby the confessional telling us how such and such sin violates this or that Commandment and I seem to recall something about not caring for the less fortunate or whatever.. but it's a vague memory..

I have found novus ordo priests to be rude, self-centered, apathetic about helping the unfortunate --and some have even yelled at me in the confessional (over something so petty, it was totally ridiculous)..

"You will know them by their fruits" Jesus said......

Isn't that ironic, that's exactly what most gays believe today. You should date, find the love of your life, marry and be faithful for the rest of your life.

 

[francoHFW]

From a worldly persective, coveting is a virtue, not a sin

The world is full of Marxists coveting what others have so they can redistribute to enrich themselves.

So you support the giveaway to the rich GOP tax rates that have given us the worst inequality upward mobility and homelessness ever? Brilliant

 

[francoHFW]

Easy to see why the church gets less and less popular and more people do their own spiritual life...

 

[Stann]

Canonized saints say that most people lose their souls over sexual immorality than any other sin. That makes sense. The Bible says something about how sin is bad but the one who commits sexual immorality sins against his very body. Actually, I think all sins or most do that but the point is, it is worse with sexual immorality.

2nd to that, the saints say is Lack of Charity

It figures the novus ordo Church never even mentions this as being a mortal sin, to speak of. I did go to a pretty good NO Church some months ago that had one of those fliers nearby the confessional telling us how such and such sin violates this or that Commandment and I seem to recall something about not caring for the less fortunate or whatever.. but it's a vague memory..

I have found novus ordo priests to be rude, self-centered, apathetic about helping the unfortunate --and some have even yelled at me in the confessional (over something so petty, it was totally ridiculous)..

"You will know them by their fruits" Jesus said......

Two gay lovers in the 3rd. Century, Serious and Bacchus, became saints. As well as about 28 other gay Christians. None of them believed in sexual immorality either. So what's your point. You might well be assuming too much.

 

[Stann]

Easy to see why the church gets less and less popular and more people do their own spiritual life...

That's 1 up for real Spirituality. And another loss for organized religion.

 

[fncceo]

Canonized saints say that most people lose their souls over sexual immorality than any other sin. That makes sense.

It makes sense because those sins are always the most fun.

 

[Stann]

It makes sense because those sins are always the most fun.

So " JOY " is a sin then. That doesn't make sense; but then again it's religion, it doesn't have to make any sense.