The poor

[RodISHI]

A lot of conversations and post on here about the poor. Have any of you ever been truly poor?

I see a lot of posters here that appear to be well educated, they have degrees or they are working on getting their degrees that make comments about the poor. Do you all really think the poor desire to be poor? That has to be the most ridiculous statement anyone can make.

There are so many degrees of poor and some posters here think they have it all figured out. Have any you that have all these theories on poor people ever lived among the poor or actually worked with the poor or the people who most generally make minimum wages? I mean there really is nothing like the actual experience to back up whatever statements you make when stating such things as "They want to be poor, that is why they are poor".

I have been very poor. I do understand what it is like. Moved out of home at eleven years old and never moved back in with my parents. We rarely talked for many years. Married at the young age of fifteen, I had just turned sixteen a few months before my daughter was born and a few months into being eighteen when my son was born. I divorced an extremely abusive asshole I had married when I was fifteen not long after my son was born.

I made choices of course so anyone who runs down the poor can say "You made those choices and it is your own fault" if you like. I will say though when you make that determination and judgment of another without all of the facts surrounding their decisions, choices and circumstances you do so in your own ignorance. We do as humans suffer from our choices yet many choices are made based on the information and circumstances at the time those choices are made. Poverty is not usually a choice people make willingly. Most who live in poverty do not have an understanding of how to overcome their circumstances. The poor are taken advantage of on a continual basis by the unscrupulous in this society as is the case in most societies.

Poverty in many cases is created normally by circumstances beyond the control of those that find themselves in that situation.

 

[Paulie]

There's a huge difference between desiring to be poor, and not putting forth maximum effort the get out of poverty.

You could be a lazy bastard that makes $8 an hour because you'd rather be able to smoke weed than have to pass a drug test, not to mention have to take classes in a higher education institution. But you could simultaneously still hate being poor.

It's what you DO about your situtation that defines you, not the situation itself.

This is not an absolute statement, of course. I recognize that some poor people are literally stuck in poverty.

But let's not forget, anyone with a social security # and a HS diploma or equivalent can fill out a FAFSA and get grants that will pay for your entire schooling at a community college with zero expense to you, and do not have to be paid back. You can also get a government subsidized student loan regardless of your credit history, income history, etc.

There's really no excuse in this system for not striving to obtain something greater in life. While even a college education doesn't guarantee you above poverty status, it's CERTAINLY better than never even making the attempt and settling for less.

 

[RodISHI]

There's a huge difference between desiring to be poor, and not putting forth maximum effort the get out of poverty.

You could be a lazy bastard that makes $8 an hour because you'd rather be able to smoke weed than have to pass a drug test, not to mention have to take classes in a higher education institution. But you could simultaneously still hate being poor.

It's what you DO about your situtation that defines you, not the situation itself.

This is not an absolute statement, of course. I recognize that some poor people are literally stuck in poverty.

But let's not forget, anyone with a social security # and a HS diploma or equivalent can fill out a FAFSA and get grants that will pay for your entire schooling at a community college with zero expense to you, and do not have to be paid back. You can also get a government subsidized student loan regardless of your credit history, income history, etc.

There's really no excuse in this system for not striving to obtain something greater in life. While even a college education doesn't guarantee you above poverty status, it's CERTAINLY better than never even making the attempt and settling for less.

While I agree some people will work a fruitless job to pay their bills and do dope or drink that's not normally the case of those who are on welfare.

I know you make it sound very easy for someone to go to school but I also know you are in error if you think for one moment a single mother or father can take care of those children on welfare or a minimum wage job and go to school without a lot of help from sources other than state assistance. I have not only lived through those situations I have met and help others that face that situation today and every day. Those people without family or friends to help them cannot make it out of those situations. Even today many of these people find themselves in the same type of situations I faced as a single mother with no formal education. Even though I could get a grant to go to college I could not afford to pay a babysitter. Just having a grant does no good unless there is the support to help get to that community college or even get a GED for one can get into that community college. Even if you were able to get a grant you would still have to have sitters and the cost of getting to and from that school to consider in the mix.

For the ones who work. When you consider a single mother normally has to pay half of her wages in a minimum wage job to a sitter why should she leave her children with a sitter that could very possibly abuse her children? It happens a lot. Many of these day cares hire people to watch children that have no business being around children. All parents that are working are facing that problem. My youngest grandson was abused at a daycare two years ago by a daycare worker. If he had not had older siblings that told what happened to him at that daycare our son may have not known and the abuse could have continued. In that our society has a lot of failures. We have children out there with mental issues from these abuses they faced as children and they have a hard time overcoming those issues.


edit: Also many of those community colleges have sicko's working as teachers. Young women face these creeps when they go into the colleges to try to get those educations to improve their lives and the chances of having hope for their future.

 

[noose4]

i have been poor as a kid, family lived in a tenement, railroad rooms with the bathtub in the kitchen where rats would climb up from the alley and get into the apartment, then i was kind of poor as an adult until i fanally landed a decent job, and as far as work/pay ratio i have found that the less i made the harder i had to work making it and the more i made the easier the work was.

 

[Paulie]

There's a huge difference between desiring to be poor, and not putting forth maximum effort the get out of poverty.

You could be a lazy bastard that makes $8 an hour because you'd rather be able to smoke weed than have to pass a drug test, not to mention have to take classes in a higher education institution. But you could simultaneously still hate being poor.

It's what you DO about your situtation that defines you, not the situation itself.

This is not an absolute statement, of course. I recognize that some poor people are literally stuck in poverty.

But let's not forget, anyone with a social security # and a HS diploma or equivalent can fill out a FAFSA and get grants that will pay for your entire schooling at a community college with zero expense to you, and do not have to be paid back. You can also get a government subsidized student loan regardless of your credit history, income history, etc.

There's really no excuse in this system for not striving to obtain something greater in life. While even a college education doesn't guarantee you above poverty status, it's CERTAINLY better than never even making the attempt and settling for less.

While I agree some people will work a fruitless job to pay their bills and do dope or drink that's not normally the case of those who are on welfare.

I know you make it sound very easy for someone to go to school but I also know you are in error if you think for one moment a single mother or father can take care of those children on welfare or a minimum wage job and go to school without a lot of help from sources other than state assistance. I have not only lived through those situations I have met and help others that face that situation today and every day. Those people without family or friends to help them cannot make it out of those situations. Even today many of these people find themselves in the same type of situations I faced as a single mother with no formal education. Even though I could get a grant to go to college I could not afford to pay a babysitter. Just having a grant does no good unless there is the support to help get to that community college or even get a GED for one can get into that community college. Even if you were able to get a grant you would still have to have sitters and the cost of getting to and from that school to consider in the mix.

For the ones who work. When you consider a single mother normally has to pay half of her wages in a minimum wage job to a sitter why should she leave her children with a sitter that could very possibly abuse her children? It happens a lot. Many of these day cares hire people to watch children that have no business being around children. All parents that are working are facing that problem. My youngest grandson was abused at a daycare two years ago by a daycare worker. If he had not had older siblings that told what happened to him at that daycare our son may have not known and the abuse could have continued. In that our society has a lot of failures. We have children out there with mental issues from these abuses they faced as children and they have a hard time overcoming those issues.

You can get assistance that pays for child care too. And food stamps, and rent assistance, etc. The list is as long as War & Peace.

I don't agree with all of those programs, but they're there for the taking. ESPECIALLY if you're a single mother. So even though I don't agree with them, they exist, and can be used. So you can either be poor and hate life, or you can use everything that's available to you for a short time, on your way to something greater in life.

I'd feel much more comfortable about someone using those assistance programs if they were striving for a higher education, and thus, a better posititon in their own life and in the economy as a whole.

And like I said, this doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I find it odd though that you would use day care centers possibly abusing children as any kind of excuse. If you would shop around for a car, you would CERTAINLY shop around for a child care facility.

The bare minimum I would ask out of anyone is to make less excuses for NOT being out of poverty, and make more efforts to GET out of poverty. If you never make it even though you put out the effort, at least you made the attempt.

To take a Wayne Gretzky quote and change it around a bit...100% of the chances you don't take, don't end up in success.

 

[RodISHI]

And like I said, this doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I find it odd though that you would use day care centers possibly abusing children as any kind of excuse. If you would shop around for a car, you would CERTAINLY shop around for a child care facility.

The bare minimum I would ask out of anyone is to make less excuses for NOT being out of poverty, and make more efforts to GET out of poverty. If you never make it even though you put out the effort, at least you made the attempt.

To take a Wayne Gretzky quote and change it around a bit...100% of the chances you don't take, don't end up in success.

You really are simple there Paulie. You do realize that the day cares that these parents whether they be working poor or on welfare trying to get an education can afford hire the cheapest scum they can find to work at them do you not? In trying to find a suitable place for their children while they attempt to get out of poverty they are caught in circumstances beyond their own control.

I hope you do not get to determine policy.

This is typical elitist crap, "If you never make it even though you put out the effort, at least you made an attempt". I can see it now, "So lets not create a situation where they can truly make it. Just dangle an apple out there in from of them just far enough that they will fall as they get close to get it and we can tell them, well at least you tried. Good effort."

 

[Ravi]

There are actually people that choose to be poor, usually for religious reasons or because they'd like to live less material based lives.

But the vast majority of poor people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time and/or have too many burdens in the way to thrive.

 

[Luissa]

I am poor right now! and it is hard because I didn't grow up poor. Of course I just consider myself a broke college student.

 

[RodISHI]

There are actually people that choose to be poor, usually for religious reasons or because they'd like to live less material based lives.

But the vast majority of poor people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time and/or have too many burdens in the way to thrive.

A lot of reasons. Paulie seems to be saying it is because they just don't try. I know personally I would not take a job or keep a job even way back when that seemed unethical to me or a job where some asshole boss treated me like an inferior piece of shit. I quit a sales job that I made six hundred dollars in my first two days on the job back in 1981, it just did not feel right selling people something they did not really need.

I think if my family had actually been poor it would have been very difficult to overcome the circumstances back in the days when the children were small. I know even still a lot of employers that abuse their employees, both corporate employers and small employers.

Monks have a structured society that chooses poverty but even they normally have a roof over their heads, a garden and such, plus sponsors that help pay the actual bills.

I think there is a big difference between choosing to pay for everything as you go than being in debt too. We lived in a house that was a dump for years because I refused to be indebted to anyone if we could get by with what we had. It took us ten years to fix and build the place but it was paid for.

 

[Toro]

Yup, but I have a middle class family, so I always had a crutch to turn too if things really had turned bad. So even though I was poor, I was never really in poverty.

I've been through the slums of Mexico City. THAT'S poverty.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

i have been poor as a kid, family lived in a tenement, railroad rooms with the bathtub in the kitchen where rats would climb up from the alley and get into the apartment, then i was kind of poor as an adult until i fanally landed a decent job, and as far as work/pay ratio i have found that the less i made the harder i had to work making it and the more i made the easier the work was.

Well the towns lay out across the dusty plains
Like graveyards filled with tombstones, waiting for the names
And a man could use his back, or use his brains
But some just went stir-crazy Lord, cuz nothin' ever changed

Till Bill Doolin met Bill Dalton
Her was workin' cheap, just biding time
Then he laughed, and said 'I'm going'
And he left that peaceful life behind

I could have stayed poor. I chose to risk what little security I had and invest in myself. 23 years later I'm not exactly "rich" but I own my land and house free and clear, vehicles and toys too, and haven't had to work a lick since 2004 and never will have to again the rest of my life. Not too bad for age 47.

I got what I wanted out of the rat race then just jumped off the track.

Welfare merely keeps the poor, poor. It punishes success, kills ambition. And guarantees for some reason, a reliable voting bloc for the ones who pander to the poor, the very ones keeping them poor.

 

[Luissa]

Yup, but I have a middle class family, so I always had a crutch to turn too if things really had turned bad. So even though I was poor, I was never really in poverty.

I've been through the slums of Mexico City. THAT'S poverty.

same here, I am poor but not poverty stricken and if I need anything I can go to my parents. I don't like to but if I need to I can.

 

[Ringel05]

Yup, I lost everything, including the townhouse I had at the time, in the recession of 91, lived with my in-laws for three years until my wife and I got back on our feet (to this day we still don't talk ). Took another eight years to completely climb out of the hole and this last downturn will set us back another couple of years (still working on keeping the house we bought three years ago). We never even considered asking the government for help. To this day the only thing we owe on is the house and car and like you I pay cash for home improvements and repairs. The only saving grace there is I can do 99% of the work.
Before that was the ten years from 74 to 84 after I got out of the Navy, but that was self inflicted, I was having to much fun to responsible or financially proactive. Not to mention I was in school most of the time during this period.

 

[noose4]

i have been poor as a kid, family lived in a tenement, railroad rooms with the bathtub in the kitchen where rats would climb up from the alley and get into the apartment, then i was kind of poor as an adult until i fanally landed a decent job, and as far as work/pay ratio i have found that the less i made the harder i had to work making it and the more i made the easier the work was.

Well the towns lay out across the dusty plains
Like graveyards filled with tombstones, waiting for the names
And a man could use his back, or use his brains
But some just went stir-crazy Lord, cuz nothin' ever changed

Till Bill Doolin met Bill Dalton
Her was workin' cheap, just biding time
Then he laughed, and said 'I'm going'
And he left that peaceful life behind

I could have stayed poor. I chose to risk what little security I had and invest in myself. 23 years later I'm not exactly "rich" but I own my land and house free and clear, vehicles and toys too, and haven't had to work a lick since 2004 and never will have to again the rest of my life. Not too bad for age 47.

I got what I wanted out of the rat race then just jumped off the track.

Welfare merely keeps the poor, poor. It punishes success, kills ambition. And guarantees for some reason, a reliable voting bloc for the ones who pander to the poor, the very ones keeping them poor.

where did i say anything about welfare? my mother and father both worked when i was a kid and i have been working since i was 14.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

i have been poor as a kid, family lived in a tenement, railroad rooms with the bathtub in the kitchen where rats would climb up from the alley and get into the apartment, then i was kind of poor as an adult until i fanally landed a decent job, and as far as work/pay ratio i have found that the less i made the harder i had to work making it and the more i made the easier the work was.

Well the towns lay out across the dusty plains
Like graveyards filled with tombstones, waiting for the names
And a man could use his back, or use his brains
But some just went stir-crazy Lord, cuz nothin' ever changed

Till Bill Doolin met Bill Dalton
Her was workin' cheap, just biding time
Then he laughed, and said 'I'm going'
And he left that peaceful life behind

I could have stayed poor. I chose to risk what little security I had and invest in myself. 23 years later I'm not exactly "rich" but I own my land and house free and clear, vehicles and toys too, and haven't had to work a lick since 2004 and never will have to again the rest of my life. Not too bad for age 47.

I got what I wanted out of the rat race then just jumped off the track.

Welfare merely keeps the poor, poor. It punishes success, kills ambition. And guarantees for some reason, a reliable voting bloc for the ones who pander to the poor, the very ones keeping them poor.

where did i say anything about welfare?

I neither said nor intimated you did. Or even hinted at it.

I have bolded the part of your post I placed the song lyrics in reply to, the rest was just general commentary.

 

[noose4]

Well the towns lay out across the dusty plains
Like graveyards filled with tombstones, waiting for the names
And a man could use his back, or use his brains
But some just went stir-crazy Lord, cuz nothin' ever changed

Till Bill Doolin met Bill Dalton
Her was workin' cheap, just biding time
Then he laughed, and said 'I'm going'
And he left that peaceful life behind

I could have stayed poor. I chose to risk what little security I had and invest in myself. 23 years later I'm not exactly "rich" but I own my land and house free and clear, vehicles and toys too, and haven't had to work a lick since 2004 and never will have to again the rest of my life. Not too bad for age 47.

I got what I wanted out of the rat race then just jumped off the track.

Welfare merely keeps the poor, poor. It punishes success, kills ambition. And guarantees for some reason, a reliable voting bloc for the ones who pander to the poor, the very ones keeping them poor.

where did i say anything about welfare?

I neither said nor intimated you did. Or even hinted at it.

I have bolded the part of your post I placed the song lyrics in reply to, the rest was just general commentary.

ok, just seemed odd that welfare was brought up in a reply to my comment about how i lived as a child.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

where did i say anything about welfare?

I neither said nor intimated you did. Or even hinted at it.

I have bolded the part of your post I placed the song lyrics in reply to, the rest was just general commentary.

ok, just seemed odd that welfare was brought up in a reply to my comment about how i lived as a child.

Naw....

I brought it up from my own experiences when I was poor. And I mean poor, homeless, destitute to the max. NO family "safety net" at all or anything of the sort. I could have stayed on the government dole and lived half-reasonably off of tax dollars and handouts. I realized it was a bad strategy that only keeps you poor, took a hard look at what I really wanted out of life, then went out and got it.

 

[Ralph]

A lot of conversations and post on here about the poor. Have any of you ever been truly poor?

I see a lot of posters here that appear to be well educated, they have degrees or they are working on getting their degrees that make comments about the poor. Do you all really think the poor desire to be poor? That has to be the most ridiculous statement anyone can make.

There are so many degrees of poor and some posters here think they have it all figured out. Have any you that have all these theories on poor people ever lived among the poor or actually worked with the poor or the people who most generally make minimum wages? I mean there really is nothing like the actual experience to back up whatever statements you make when stating such things as "They want to be poor, that is why they are poor".

I have been very poor. I do understand what it is like. Moved out of home at eleven years old and never moved back in with my parents. We rarely talked for many years. Married at the young age of fifteen, I had just turned sixteen a few months before my daughter was born and a few months into being eighteen when my son was born. I divorced an extremely abusive asshole I had married when I was fifteen not long after my son was born.

I made choices of course so anyone who runs down the poor can say "You made those choices and it is your own fault" if you like. I will say though when you make that determination and judgment of another without all of the facts surrounding their decisions, choices and circumstances you do so in your own ignorance. We do as humans suffer from our choices yet many choices are made based on the information and circumstances at the time those choices are made. Poverty is not usually a choice people make willingly. Most who live in poverty do not have an understanding of how to overcome their circumstances. The poor are taken advantage of on a continual basis by the unscrupulous in this society as is the case in most societies.

Poverty in many cases is created normally by circumstances beyond the control of those that find themselves in that situation.

Indeed, some people "choose" to be poor. There are many factors that "create" poverty....with choice being among those factors.

Poverty will always be an existing and continuing part of the human condition. It has been this way throughout recorded history. It was Jesus that said, "You will always have the poor among you" -- John 12:8 Poverty comes from a variety of sources.......Circumstances, incapacity, and sometimes even by choice. History is exampled with many such circumstances. The communes of the 60s, the Hermit that willingly isolates himself from society and lives off the land.....the veteran that chooses to live beneath the freeway underpass even though there are laws on the books that will provide food, shelter, and the monetary ability to become a non-begging member of society. Some people simply choose not to chase the dream of another person's definition of poverty.

There are some things that are just beyond the control of any human being.......unless you are George "W" Bush, then of course you have the ability to dictate poverty upon people by controlling the weather and make people "choose" to stay behind.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I choose to be poor because it isn't worth it to me to work hard for someone else for materialistic ideals. I like being poor (I think, I've never been wealthy) and I like the freedom it gives me not to be attached to material possessions. I grew up very poor.

I know lots of poor people who live below the federally designated poverty level because they also value freedom over economic stability or material possessions.

I also know lots of poor people who don't know how to get out of living in poverty. It just isn't as simple as finishing their GED, going to college, and getting a better job for them. They aren't on welfare. Its just not part of their personality to learn in school and some people are just like that. It doesn't mean their stupid or lazy.

 

[RodISHI]

There are some things that are just beyond the control of any human being.......unless you are George "W" Bush, then of course you have the ability to dictate poverty upon people by controlling the weather and make people "choose" to stay behind.

Jesus said also you will know them by their fruits. Your fruit seems to be a bit rotten here Ralph.