Blowing Up Darwin

[abu afak]

... Where did the very first living cell come from? So far with all your lengthy posts you still have No answer.

That's Correct!
And Neither do you!
And Darwin (THE OP TOPIC) only deals the Evidence for life's subsequent evolution, NOT Abiogenesis.

And does not logically Justify Your Constant/Fallacious God-of-the-Gaps Fallacy inference.

"We don't know/Know Yet" is the most rational answer.
No need to create a new Fire, Lightening, or Fertility god for what we don't know/know yet.

God of the Gaps (well then, how did...")​

This is probably THEE #1 rationale for those arguing for a god on msg boards. "Well then, did all this stuff just appear?".. "how did ___ if not god?" And we can see several Fallacious OPs currently employing this boner. If we can't explain it/explain it Yet, it must be 'god.' The same...


Leo123, is a FRAUD who can never answer me, just reposts the same idiotic OFF Topic challenge/god inference.
`

 

[abu afak]

There are Two Religions in conflict.

That of the Founders, the Judeo-Christian faith.
The Bible is its foundation. And that of Democrats, Liberals, Communists, Nazis, Fascists.....Militant Secularism. Lacking self-awareness, the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives ridicule religion as superstition......but kneel to their false religion, Militant Secularism.
From the Amazon review of Godless, by Coulter…

No, there are Lying Religious Litteralist Creationcysts like you,
and then there's...
The Science of Evolution has Overwhelming EVIDENCE, while God/s have NUN/NONE.

`

 

[abu afak]

PoliticalChic said:

• This thread is based on “why?”
• 
  
• Since a century and a half after Darwin produced his eloquent theory, with more professional scientists active today than every before, why has no proof of Darwin’s theory been produced, and, in fact with evidence has been found in Chengyiang, China, Syria, England, with fossils showing the very opposite pattern from Darwin’s predictions.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


AGAIN (11, 12, 13?)
Scientific American.
15 answers to Creationist Nonsense

""1. Evolution is only a theory It is not a fact or a scientific law.

Many people learned in Elementary School that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law.
Scientists do NOT use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a Well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses."
No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are NOT expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the Theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification,
one may also speak of the FACT of evolution.
[......]
`

Have a Nice Page.
`

 

[scruffy]

So, throw all that stuff together and make a living cell.

Why?

I'm not here to prove anything.

My time is better spent curing cancers and solving other pressing problems.

I don't require proof of the self-evident.

I accept what I see in front of me.

You should try it sometime.

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes. Science is all about studying existing mechanisms, in this case, biological organisms. Science has no answer to who or what created the first living cell. All they can do is study already animated mechanisms and they have no answer as to why these mechanisms do what they do. Yet they denigrate anyone who even attempts to have a theory that does not comport with their personal opinion.

Science is winning the battle. Just look at the condition of humanity.

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't require proof of the self-evident.

I accept what I see in front of me.

My position exactly.

 

[scruffy]

Leo and PC do you know what MS is? I have a good friend who has it. He was treated with a drug called Tysabri, which weakens the immune system to the point where viruses start entering the brain. One of those viruses is the JC virus, which causes PML. That's a cancer, it happens when the brain's immune system attacks itself. There's a particular deletion variant of this virus that causes epilepsy, it attacks oligodendrocytes and somehow causes the neurons to misbehave. There's another deletion variant that causes neuronopathy, and all these variations only happen after the virus enters the brain.

It just so happens I was one of the first people in America to study the JC virus, I know a lot about it. I work with a group in Chicago that has an extensive clinical practice, and what I do for them is model the neural aspects of these variations on a computer. We figure out which particular genes the virus variants are attacking and how that affects nerve cell behavior. For this work, we need to study human neural genomes. Which are extensive, and complicated.

The JC virus itself is tiny, it's only about 5000 base pairs of DNA. The variations occur in the non coding control regions of the DNA. (These are like the viral equivalents of promoters and transcription factors). JC in its native form attacks glial cells, not neurons. It causes inflammation in the white matter of the brain, which then triggers an immune response. So we want to know, how the mutations switch the virus from attacking glial cells, to causing epilepsy in the neurons.

This particular virus is a great case model because the mutations are REPEATABLE, which is very rare. The DNA segments in question are somehow "susceptible" to these particular mutations. So what we've done, is create a genetically engineered mouse with pieces of human DNA in it, that allow the JC virus to cross the blood brain barrier and enter the brain. The same types of mutations occur in the mouse, as occur in humans - and now we can WATCH the mouse neurons becoming infected. After mutation, the infection travels from the glial cells into the neuron, where it causes epilepsy and granule cell neuronopathy.

We work with a group in Finland that's studying a whole different aspect of this equation - it turns out that children get easily infected by JC and it hangs out in the kidneys without ever entering the brain and without causing any symptoms. They're looking at why the virus prefers young kidneys. This is important research because a lot of people get MS and Tysabri is one of their best chances of slowing its progression - IF they can survive the first few doses.

Okay? This is what I do, my computer has 320 tB of neural network simulations on it resulting from 14 different JC variants. We can now predict with great accuracy whether and when a human patient will become epileptic after treatment for MS. At this moment, we're working on an NCCR inhibitor that prevents the virus from mutating. It doesn't prevent entry into the brain, it just prevents a very dangerous mutation that occurs afterwards. In about six months we'll have this figured out, and the people funding this research will have a safe and effective treatment to counteract the side effects of the MS medications in humans. And then we'll move on to the next side effect. All I do is computer work, but I see ALL the DNA sequences. I probably know as much about human glial DNA as anyone on the planet.

This a teeny, tiny piece of the human DNA puzzle, but that's how science works. We don't get grandiose thinking we can create life or even engineer a cell - all we do is look at a minuscule piece of DNA (it's about 140 base pairs long) and try to understand why it matters. After enough people do stuff like this, someone will come along and figure out how to entirely prevent the JC virus from entering the brain, but we're not there yet, it's going to take a lot more work before that can happen. Do you understand?

Creating a living cell from scratch is a waste of time right now, there's several thousand very deadly human diseases that take precedence. Maybe my grandkids will figure out how to do what you ask. I myself am more interested in helping my friend live a longer and healthier life.

I don't worry about a Creator, I just put one foot in front of the other and do what's in front of me. Once in a while I need a break - like today - I'm totally burnt out. I run a music production company too, because I have to make a living. I rarely have time to philosophize, and almost never have as much time as I've spent with you on this thread. But I figured you and PC might be worth the effort. Please prove me right. Don't expect too much from us scientists, we're already overwhelmed and multitasking. Give it time, you'll get your answer. Someday there will be an Einstein of biology, and s/he'll figure it out.

 

[Leo123]

Leo and PC do you know what MS is? I have a good friend who has it. He was treated with a drug called Tysabri, which weakens the immune system to the point where viruses start entering the brain. One of those viruses is the JC virus, which causes PML. That's a cancer, it happens when the brain's immune system attacks itself. There's a particular deletion variant of this virus that causes epilepsy, it attacks oligodendrocytes and somehow causes the neurons to misbehave. There's another deletion variant that causes neuronopathy, and all these variations only happen after the virus enters the brain.

It just so happens I was one of the first people in America to study the JC virus, I know a lot about it. I work with a group in Chicago that has an extensive clinical practice, and what I do for them is model the neural aspects of these variations on a computer. We figure out which particular genes the virus variants are attacking and how that affects nerve cell behavior. For this work, we need to study human neural genomes. Which are extensive, and complicated.

The JC virus itself is tiny, it's only about 5000 base pairs of DNA. The variations occur in the non coding control regions of the DNA. (These are like the viral equivalents of promoters and transcription factors). JC in its native form attacks glial cells, not neurons. It causes inflammation in the white matter of the brain, which then triggers an immune response. So we want to know, how the mutations switch the virus from attacking glial cells, to causing epilepsy in the neurons.

This particular virus is a great case model because the mutations are REPEATABLE, which is very rare. The DNA segments in question are somehow "susceptible" to these particular mutations. So what we've done, is create a genetically engineered mouse with pieces of human DNA in it, that allow the JC virus to cross the blood brain barrier and enter the brain. The same types of mutations occur in the mouse, as occur in humans - and now we can WATCH the mouse neurons becoming infected. After mutation, the infection travels from the glial cells into the neuron, where it causes epilepsy and granule cell neuronopathy.

We work with a group in Finland that's studying a whole different aspect of this equation - it turns out that children get easily infected by JC and it hangs out in the kidneys without ever entering the brain and without causing any symptoms. They're looking at why the virus prefers young kidneys. This is important research because a lot of people get MS and Tysabri is one of their best chances of slowing its progression - IF they can survive the first few doses.

Okay? This is what I do, my computer has 320 tB of neural network simulations on it resulting from 14 different JC variants. We can now predict with great accuracy whether and when a human patient will become epileptic after treatment for MS. At this moment, we're working on an NCCR inhibitor that prevents the virus from mutating. It doesn't prevent entry into the brain, it just prevents a very dangerous mutation that occurs afterwards. In about six months we'll have this figured out, and the people funding this research will have a safe and effective treatment to counteract the side effects of the MS medications in humans. And then we'll move on to the next side effect. All I do is computer work, but I see ALL the DNA sequences. I probably know as much about human glial DNA as anyone on the planet.

This a teeny, tiny piece of the human DNA puzzle, but that's how science works. We don't get grandiose thinking we can create life or even engineer a cell - all we do is look at a minuscule piece of DNA (it's about 140 base pairs long) and try to understand why it matters. After enough people do stuff like this, someone will come along and figure out how to entirely prevent the JC virus from entering the brain, but we're not there yet, it's going to take a lot more work before that can happen. Do you understand?

Creating a living cell from scratch is a waste of time right now, there's several thousand very deadly human diseases that take precedence. Maybe my grandkids will figure out how to do what you ask. I myself am more interested in helping my friend live a longer and healthier life.

I don't worry about a Creator, I just put one foot in front of the other and do what's in front of me. Once in a while I need a break - like today - I'm totally burnt out. I run a music production company too, because I have to make a living. I rarely have time to philosophize, and almost never have as much time as I've spent with you on this thread. But I figured you and PC might be worth the effort. Please prove me right. Don't expect too much from us scientists, we're already overwhelmed and multitasking. Give it time, you'll get your answer. Someday there will be an Einstein of biology, and s/he'll figure it out.

First, I wish the best for your friend. His therapy has nothing to do with the creation of the first living cell, already existing active elements are being uses per your description. You keep explaining the workings of existing cells which doesn't address the origin of life. I agree, we're done here. Go back to music production and I will go back to song writing.

 

[scruffy]

Oh - I forgot - the tiny 140 base pairs region in the virus, causes up-regulation of about 6000 genes in a human cell, and down-regulation of about 4000 other genes.

 

[Hollie]

Science also has no answer, that was my point. That you seem to hate people who believe in God is a separate beef. There could have been a creator that doesn't mean it was the Judeo Christian God and it also doesn't mean it was not. Why do you guys try to stop anyone thinking differently than you? (give it up abu)

Actually, science, or more specifically the natural world, does have an answer. All of the basic building blocks of life occur naturally in the universe. All of the simpler, lighter elements readily combine to form more complicated structures.

Science shows us that the universe evolved by self-organization of matter towards more and more complex structures. Atoms, stars and galaxies self-assembled out of the fundamental particles produced by the expansion of the universe. Biological organisms readily assemble and will evolve under selective environmental pressures. It's really a simple matter to research this.

If you have something in support of a 6,000 year old planet and all existence at the hands of specific gods, present it

Those are basic principles that any high school chemistry student would know. You have been indoctrinated with the belief that only through magic and mysticism can the natural world be explained. You shouldn't feel a need to impose your superstitious ignorance on others.

Why do you feel a need to force your gods on others?

 

[Hollie]

Where did the very first living cell come from? So far with all your lengthy posts you still have no answer.

Where did the very first human invention of gods come from?

Oh, and I should point out that gravity is an invention of those “evilutionists”. It’s just a theory and thus can be dismissed as conjecture.

 

[Hollie]

I believe in an ancient earth with many life forms present over the millions of years. However, I believe God created them, each being perfectly suited for the environment God created for them, no evolutionary change needed. When God created modern man, he destroyed all life forms that were not suitable to exist along with man and the environment created for man.

That seems really arbitrary and capricious. Why did the gods invent life forms that would not be suitable?

Are the gods just incompetent supermagical designers?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Apparently invoking a Creator is really triggering for some people. The same ones that believe the 'continuum' is the Creator.

To be fair, the Leftists who control the media, schools, and pop culture have taught many that to be religious, to believe in God, to see religion as the origin of Western Civilization will make one the butt of jokes and contumely.


"While the liberal mob engages in the kind of violence that one expects of a mob, there is also a species of intellectual mob that relies on praise and ridicule to enforce its views: they rely on the axiom that large segments of the population would rather be punched in the face than be sneered at by the elites. We call them liberals.

The mob mentality is irresistible to people with a desperate need to be popular, and are perennially afraid of getting a bloody nose on the playground of life."
Coulter.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You're the one bestowing attributes on a God you don't understand.

Me, I'm comfortable with my faith. I'll tell you straight up, this part is faith and that part is science.

But you never asked. You're trying to mix faith and science, and it doesn't work.

You act like there's some kind of conflict. There isn't. If you perceive one, it's of your own making.

"You're the one bestowing attributes on a God you don't understand."

The definiton of God is an entity that has all and every attribute.

Try to stick to words you can define.

 

[PoliticalChic]

A belief with evidence.

A belief that can be experimentally tested.

You seem to be confused. About science and other things.


I don't get triggered.

I've been very patient with you in this thread.

You seem to think you can wrangle some kind of confession out of me, and you can't. There's nothing to confess. I showed you the science, and that's all there is to it.

You keep saying "evolution can't explain origins, and no one ever said it could. Neither Darwin nor anyone in this thread ever said that. Yet you insist on beating a dead horse. For what purpose?

All I'm hearing from you is "yeah but" over and over again. You keep asking about the "first cell", and any competent evolutionist will tell you there's no such thing. There's stuff that came before cells, and stuff that came after cells. You're creating something in your own mind. Science isn't going to prove your imagination.

"A belief that can be experimentally tested."


But you believe in Darwin.

That view can't be tested.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Leo and PC do you know what MS is? I have a good friend who has it. He was treated with a drug called Tysabri, which weakens the immune system to the point where viruses start entering the brain. One of those viruses is the JC virus, which causes PML. That's a cancer, it happens when the brain's immune system attacks itself. There's a particular deletion variant of this virus that causes epilepsy, it attacks oligodendrocytes and somehow causes the neurons to misbehave. There's another deletion variant that causes neuronopathy, and all these variations only happen after the virus enters the brain.

It just so happens I was one of the first people in America to study the JC virus, I know a lot about it. I work with a group in Chicago that has an extensive clinical practice, and what I do for them is model the neural aspects of these variations on a computer. We figure out which particular genes the virus variants are attacking and how that affects nerve cell behavior. For this work, we need to study human neural genomes. Which are extensive, and complicated.

The JC virus itself is tiny, it's only about 5000 base pairs of DNA. The variations occur in the non coding control regions of the DNA. (These are like the viral equivalents of promoters and transcription factors). JC in its native form attacks glial cells, not neurons. It causes inflammation in the white matter of the brain, which then triggers an immune response. So we want to know, how the mutations switch the virus from attacking glial cells, to causing epilepsy in the neurons.

This particular virus is a great case model because the mutations are REPEATABLE, which is very rare. The DNA segments in question are somehow "susceptible" to these particular mutations. So what we've done, is create a genetically engineered mouse with pieces of human DNA in it, that allow the JC virus to cross the blood brain barrier and enter the brain. The same types of mutations occur in the mouse, as occur in humans - and now we can WATCH the mouse neurons becoming infected. After mutation, the infection travels from the glial cells into the neuron, where it causes epilepsy and granule cell neuronopathy.

We work with a group in Finland that's studying a whole different aspect of this equation - it turns out that children get easily infected by JC and it hangs out in the kidneys without ever entering the brain and without causing any symptoms. They're looking at why the virus prefers young kidneys. This is important research because a lot of people get MS and Tysabri is one of their best chances of slowing its progression - IF they can survive the first few doses.

Okay? This is what I do, my computer has 320 tB of neural network simulations on it resulting from 14 different JC variants. We can now predict with great accuracy whether and when a human patient will become epileptic after treatment for MS. At this moment, we're working on an NCCR inhibitor that prevents the virus from mutating. It doesn't prevent entry into the brain, it just prevents a very dangerous mutation that occurs afterwards. In about six months we'll have this figured out, and the people funding this research will have a safe and effective treatment to counteract the side effects of the MS medications in humans. And then we'll move on to the next side effect. All I do is computer work, but I see ALL the DNA sequences. I probably know as much about human glial DNA as anyone on the planet.

This a teeny, tiny piece of the human DNA puzzle, but that's how science works. We don't get grandiose thinking we can create life or even engineer a cell - all we do is look at a minuscule piece of DNA (it's about 140 base pairs long) and try to understand why it matters. After enough people do stuff like this, someone will come along and figure out how to entirely prevent the JC virus from entering the brain, but we're not there yet, it's going to take a lot more work before that can happen. Do you understand?

Creating a living cell from scratch is a waste of time right now, there's several thousand very deadly human diseases that take precedence. Maybe my grandkids will figure out how to do what you ask. I myself am more interested in helping my friend live a longer and healthier life.

I don't worry about a Creator, I just put one foot in front of the other and do what's in front of me. Once in a while I need a break - like today - I'm totally burnt out. I run a music production company too, because I have to make a living. I rarely have time to philosophize, and almost never have as much time as I've spent with you on this thread. But I figured you and PC might be worth the effort. Please prove me right. Don't expect too much from us scientists, we're already overwhelmed and multitasking. Give it time, you'll get your answer. Someday there will be an Einstein of biology, and s/he'll figure it out.

• This thread is based on “why?”
• 
  
• Since a century and a half after Darwin produced his eloquent theory, with more professional scientists active today than every before, why has no proof of Darwin’s theory been produced, and, in fact with evidence has been found in Chengyiang, China, Syria, England, with fossils showing the very opposite pattern from Darwin’s predictions.
• 
  
• Why is this provably false theory taught as fact in schools?
• To whom is it so important that it be viewed as such?
• Answer: any who need God driven from the common discussion: the ideologies that have murdered untold million of human being and don’t care to have God watching their actions, or to individuals who understand God's view of murder.

• Meyer: “There are two issues: how do you get to the first life from simple non-living chemicals…we have no chemical evolutionary theory that accounts for the first life.”
• 
  
• Never have scientists been able to generate living organisms from any array of chemicals or any procedure.

• 
  
• “Darwin presumed some simple organisms, which we now know were not simple, and then proposed a mechanism by which they could generate all the new forms of life.”
• The mechanism proposed does a nice job of explaining small scale variations…adaptions such as bigger or smaller in response to weather but does a very poor job of explaining the major variations in the history of life such as the origin of birds, mammals….”

Here is the key fact that obviates Darwin's theory:
“In the fossil record we do see very abrupt appearance without the transitional intermediates you would expect on the basis of Darwin’s theory.”


Why is it so important to persuade every susceptible individual that it is true????

 

[Kruska]

Yes. Science is all about studying existing mechanisms, in this case, biological organisms. Science has no answer to who or what created the first living cell. All they can do is study already animated mechanisms and they have no answer as to why these mechanisms do what they do. Yet they denigrate anyone who even attempts to have a theory that does not comport with their personal opinion.

And it was and only is SCIENCE that finds cures and remedies for e.g. sicknesses - which e.g. virus or bacterial caused sickness was investigated onto and cured via endless referencing the content of those self-written desert books??

Oh yeah right - e.g. the Jews caused the Plague, and some heretic must have caused Cholera, and so on. Therefore let's prosecute or even better place them on the stake - to rid us of diseases.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Why?

I'm not here to prove anything.

My time is better spent curing cancers and solving other pressing problems.

I don't require proof of the self-evident.

I accept what I see in front of me.

You should try it sometime.

"I don't require proof of the self-evident."


This from someone who claims to be a professional scientist??????



Nothing could be less "scientific."




Self-evident is saying that two plumb lines are parallel.

 

[PoliticalChic]

And it was and only is SCIENCE that finds cures and remedies for e.g. sicknesses - which e.g. virus or bacterial caused sickness was investigated onto and cured via endless referencing the content of those self-written desert books??

Oh yeah right - e.g. the Jews caused the Plague, and some heretic must have caused Cholera, and so on. Therefore let's prosecute or even better place them on the stake - to rid us of diseases.

This is the sort of post one would expect from someone just coming our of a drug coma.


You should try to stick to subjects where you might actually have some cachet, such as favorite Crayola, or how far to sit from the tv….this is out of your league.

 

[Kruska]

This is the sort of post one would expect from someone just coming our of a drug coma.


You should try to stick to subjects where you might actually have some cachet, such as favorite Crayola, or how far to sit from the tv….this is out of your league.

Go and read your desert kiddo books - it suits you much better.